Master of the Unseen Fist

[i3ullseye]

Ok all. Just wanted to ask/discuss some ideas about telekinetics and martial arts. I built a concept art around TK a while ago, but haven't updated the idea in years. So I want to throw a few ideas here and get some input, and maybe come up with what may be some of the best ways to approach this.

 

I know this isn't as sexy as 6E talk, but maybe most of it will carry over anyway.

 

 

Option 1) Normal Telekinesis and a Weapon Element for the existing arts

 

This is nice and easy it seems. You can use all your martial maneuvers at range basically, which accomplishes quite a bit. But what are some of the complexities? Benefits? Pitfalls?

 

Obvious benefit can be surprise maneuver bonuses out the yang. But when we look at telekinetics, do you really use an arm or a leg shaped force? Do the same rules even come close to applying? At the minimum you may want to require Fine Manipulation. But with no action reaction, and no real limbs per se, can any hold maneuver really function the same?

 

Another real issue I have with this approach is one of CV. Do you get the OCV and DCV mods for what your thoughts might be doing 10+ hexes away? Do you also need a seperate weapon element for each weapon being wielded telekinetically? So you need one for Sword, and then one more for TK Sword? This seems to make more sense because it's movements and uses would be quite a bit different I think.

 

So what are everyones opinions of Option 1????

 

 

 

And Option 2) A custom made TK art

 

This one has some benefits also, like possibly having custom combat maneuvers that could even add to ECV. Doing this you may avoid the basic pitfall of maneuvers that don't quite fit with the idea of using your mind at range. You could just make it a series of various strikes with CV modifiers and damage or STR mods. Would Martial Dodge even be in the art? Maybe NONE have a DCV mod since they have no bearing on your physical body position.

 

I think this one take a bit more work, but is certainly a bit cleaner overall. You still get the benefits of suprise many times. You can take a weapon element for bare hand perhaps, but that might be a hard one to crossover also.

 

You could even think of making the motions with your hand and mind at the same time, so the TK adds as a strength bonus to your physical movements, but I really think at this point it should be bought as something other than the TK power... but a cool concept nonetheless.

 

 

Option 3) Extra Limbs!

 

I built a character this way once, and it was a blast. I took extra limbs as indirect and invisibe. By definition, I can now have as many invisible hands and feet as I needed within my normal reach. I think I actually bought stretching also, and didn't get the real telekinesis power at all.

 

I also built an art around this concept, since I now have limbs to do various grab and hit maneuvers. An autofire hand attack is a power, and thus outside the scope of the art and TK itself, but the maneuvers you could build with this using the advanced/optional maneuver building were quite impressive.

 

This links these limbs to your characters own strength however, but in a way this can be advantageous overall as you pay for strength once, and need not buy it "again" by grabbing telekinesis.

 

 

So... pros and cons for each approach? Options? Ideas for specific martial maneuvers and costs?

[pinecone]

Re: Master of the Unseen Fist

 

Personally, I've done the MA, usable with route...I'd recomend building a Ranged Martial Art special for TK. I think I've come to the point of view that Body based and Teek based should be seperate arts...

[pinecone]

Re: Master of the Unseen Fist

 

You should also look at building a "Multi-fu"...

 

 

Multi (X)

TK u TK

Strike u E-atk

Hold! u Entagle : decays

 

and that sort of thing...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Master of the Unseen Fist

 

Have you considered 'stretching (does not cross intervening space)'? That's a pretty good way of laying the smackdown on someone standing too far away. I had a TP based character who opened little teleport gates next to his opponent he could punch/grab/bitchslap through. It worked. Also it doesn't actually affect the base cost of the attacks if you are worried about active point levels. Doesn't have the range of TK but often does not need it. You just build a normal martial artist and hit at range: no angst involved.

 

ALSO:

 

You asked what the pitfalls were: the pitfalls are when you fall down a pit more than once.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Master of the Unseen Fist

 

I'd just go with TK & Martial Arts.

 

Here is an example of how I would use them in combination to simulate a Jedi.

 

 

30 Jedi Combat TK: Telekinesis (20 STR), Area Of Effect Accurate (One Hex; -0 Limitation: Can Be Blocked/Deflected (If Perceivable); +1/2), Invisible Power Effects (Fully Invisible; -0 Limitation: Visible to Mental Sense Group; +1) (75 Active Points); Instant (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4), Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points; -1/4), Affects Whole Object (-1/4) 7

Notes: Advanced practitioners should be allowed to buy off the Instant and Affects Whole Object Limitations either directly or by way of a separate Naked Power.

 

Jedi TK Arts: Basic

Maneuver OCV DCV Notes

8 +2 HTH Damage Class(es)

3 Martial Grab -1 -1 Grab Two Limbs, 40 STR for holding on

3 Martial Throw +0 +1 6d6 +v/5, Target Falls

5 Takeaway +0 +0 Grab Weapon, 40 STR to take weapon away

 

Jedi TK Arts: Advanced

Maneuver OCV DCV Notes

4 Choke Hold -2 +0 Grab One Limb; 3d6 NND

4 Crush +0 +0 10d6 Crush, Must Follow Grab

[i3ullseye]

Re: Master of the Unseen Fist

 

yeah, I don't mind this approach either... but should ANY maneuver really have a DCV modifier? Also, adding DCs to an art, and having that apply through TK... gets nasty real fast. So instead of adding 4 points to get 2 strength or so... you are getting a full +1D6, or 5 strength applied force. Sure, it is only with those maneuvers, but it is something to watch I think.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Master of the Unseen Fist

 

re: DCV Modifiers

 

It seems perfectly appropriate for there to be negative modifiers.

 

Note that the positive modifier for the Martial Grab only adds to the characters DCV before it is then halved due to the Concentration Limitation on the TK.

 

If you don't want to use that complicated an approach you could alternatively use some of the Ranged MA maneuvers. But you would probably still need to create some custom martial art maneuvers as well.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Master of the Unseen Fist

 

The TK has the 'instant' limitation - would that not scupper most of the utility of the various hold maneouvres?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Master of the Unseen Fist

 

The TK has the 'instant' limitation - would that not scupper most of the utility of the various hold maneouvres?

 

Yep.

 

That's why I stated:

 

Notes: Advanced practitioners should be allowed to buy off the Instant and Affects Whole Object Limitations either directly or by way of a separate Naked Power.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Master of the Unseen Fist

 

I think that all of the suggestions presented are viable, depending on the sfx of the character's TK. I have certainly used the TK-as-weapon-element method (but only for TK bought with Fine Manipulation) and the invisible and/or indirect Stretching method as well, but each approach was for very different characters, at least sfx-wise. I have never built a character with a special ranged TK art, but I can see where it would make sense to do so.

 

I would thrown in a couple other comments though. First, TK is not invisible normally, so the "surprise" factor is not going to be much unless the character has paid the points to make that TK invisible. Second, TK as a power has range modifiers, while Stretching does not (IIRC), but then TK also has much better range typically. These are important factors when designing exactly what the character can do and how, again based on the sfx.

[i3ullseye]

Re: Master of the Unseen Fist

 

I think invisible extra limbs with stretching, and indirect... actually keeps this in check. You get the benefit of surprise, and no range mod. But it is expensive to build, so you aren't hitting people 30" away. A solid super level build (350 pt character) will have about 5" of stretching. This also means you can hit ONE tyarget that far away with a strike. But if you grab, your inches of stretching used must be less than 5" total, so you can grab 2 guys 2" away, but if the 3rd guy is also 2", he is 1" out of your range.

 

It is a complex character to run I think also, and a nightmare for a GM who isn't ready for it.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Master of the Unseen Fist

 

Just adding IPE to the Extra Limbs wouldn't be enough.

Both the Stretching & the character's STR would also need it as well.

 

However, Stretching also has Indirect qualities by default (just like TK) so adding that Advantage may not be necessary but you might want to add the Does Not Cross Intervening Space Advantage instead

 

example:

75 Stretching 6", Does Not Cross Intervening Space (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4), Invisible Power Effects (Fully Invisible; +1) (75 Active Points) - END=3

 

The other major issue with using Stretching to simulate a telekinetic sfx is that, unlike the Power Telekinesis, it will trigger Damage Shield Advantaged Powers on the target.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Master of the Unseen Fist

 

It all depends on the rationalisation for the powers, of course. Reason from effect and all that., but assuming it is actually a fist and not just some fancy EB, and assuming you are actually connected to it in some way, 'Stretching: does not cross intervening space' sounds like the very thing.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Master of the Unseen Fist

 

From the FAQ

http://www.herogames.com/rulesFAQ.htm?ruleset=&section=&keywords=stretching&dateString=

 

If a character has the Does Not Cross Intervening Space Advantage on his Stretching, is he affected by a Damage Shield he touches while Stretched? Can a character he Grabs still apply a Reversal maneuver to him?

 

Yes, and yes.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Master of the Unseen Fist

 

.........

 

However, Stretching also has Indirect qualities by default (just like TK) so adding that Advantage may not be necessary but you might want to add the Does Not Cross Intervening Space Advantage instead

 

...............

 

Complete aside but I've always understood TK indirectness to be able to reach through stuff, whereas stretching indirectness could just reach around stuff. I have no idea what 'does not cross intervening space' does to that arrangement.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Master of the Unseen Fist

 

One option for master of the unseen fist is just to buy yourself full invisibility. Also buying Images to leave a hologram of you behind when you are beating people up is optional

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Master of the Unseen Fist

 

Complete aside but I've always understood TK indirectness to be able to reach through stuff' date=' whereas stretching indirectness could just reach [i']around[/i] stuff. I have no idea what 'does not cross intervening space' does to that arrangement.

 

One sfx might be the giant robot with detachable hands which can fly and grab things. The DNCIS Advantage just means there is no linkage between the hands and the arms. The hands themselves would still need to go around barriers just like normal stretching though.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Master of the Unseen Fist

 

I've tried all three aproaches-and none so far were satisfatory. But I'm going to steal...ur borrow your title of the Master of the Unseen Fist. When I did try using it with stretching, I did buy it with Fine Manipulation.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Master of the Unseen Fist

 

The TK has the 'instant' limitation - would that not scupper most of the utility of the various hold maneouvres?

 

I thought that as long as you paid for the endurace the grab didn't go away with TK and you could grab MORE people as long as the endurance held?

[GoldenAge]

Re: Master of the Unseen Fist

 

Have you considered 'stretching (does not cross intervening space)'? That's a pretty good way of laying the smackdown on someone standing too far away. I had a TP based character who opened little teleport gates next to his opponent he could punch/grab/bitchslap through. It worked. Also it doesn't actually affect the base cost of the attacks if you are worried about active point levels. Doesn't have the range of TK but often does not need it. You just build a normal martial artist and hit at range: no angst involved.

I only use this.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Master of the Unseen Fist

 

Just thinking, wasn't there a villian in 4th with this type power. I can picture him and dragon I think was in his title. But if you could track him down, it would give you a basis to work off of.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Master of the Unseen Fist

 

I thought that as long as you paid for the endurace the grab didn't go away with TK and you could grab MORE people as long as the endurance held?

 

You are quite right, but TK is constant: making it instant means it switches off immediately after use, thus becoming useless for holding stuff between phases. That is why HyperMan (as he pointed out to me) had the footnote about removing the limitation for more advanced users.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Master of the Unseen Fist

 

Thank you ans as usual I mis-read the post. Blast those 8- rolls!!