Multipower-Like Movement Powers

[prestidigitator]

Based on a discussion on another thread, I've been thinking of the cost of Movement Powers. Here's an idea I've stumbled upon. In the standard rules you can't mix modes of movement in a single Phase. Also, while it is cool to be able to fly, leap, teleport, etc., is being able to fly X times faster really that much more valuable than to be able to run X times faster?

 

Consider:

 

1. You could build a big Multipower with a different Movement Power in each slot, and generally there'd be no huge disadvantage to it (aside maybe for negative Adjustments or something) since you can't mix movement in a single Phase anyway.
   
2. If all you cared about was the velocity for adding damage, you could most likely buy up an inexpensive Movement Power (say Leaping) for Move Throughs/Bys.
   
3. If you can move really fast with one Movement Power, should it really be twice as expensive to be able to move that fast with another mode of movement?
   

 

So here's my idea. Make movement a construct that is, in some ways, like a Multipower. The "reserve" cost is how far you can move. Each "slot" is actually a fixed base cost for the mode of movement you are using, with Running, Swimming, and Leaping being Everyman (though with a Limitation to the latter two):

 

Movement Distance Reserve: 1 point for 1 hex (2m) of Movement (6 hexes/12m Everyman); 5 points for x2 NCM (first x2 multiple Everyman)

 

Base Costs for Movement Modes

Running - 15 points (Everyman)

Swimming - 10 points; Everyman has a -1/2 Limitation

Limited to 2 hexes/4m

Leaping - 10 points; Everyman has a -1/2 Limitation

Limited to 2 hexes/4m

Flight - 20 points

Teleportation - 20 points

Tunneling - 20 points

Gliding - 10 points

Swinging - 10 points

 

Adders (other than NCM) and Modifiers can be applied to each of these base costs. In particular, a Limitation can be applied to a slot that is restricted to less than the Distance Reserve (such as the one that applies to Everyman Swimming and Leaping):

 

Reduced Distance Limitation

-0 ... x3/4 to x1 of Reserve Distance

-1/4 ... x1/2 to x3/4 of Reserve Distance

-1/2 ... x0 to x1/2 of Reserve Distance

 

Reduced NCM Limitation (-1/4)

For any NCM less than that in the Reserve.

 

Only Modifiers that apply to all modes of movement can be applied to the Distance Reserve.

 

What do you think? I'm not terribly fixated on the particular costs, though we can discuss that too. What about the general idea?

 

EDITS:

• Added Gliding and Swinging. Oops.
  
• Changed my mind on limiting distance per slot being completely proportional. Goes against the idea of having to pay a significant fixed cost to be able to move in a particular mode (if you can fly, you can fly). So now it's a maximum of -1/2; sort of like reduced Range.
  
• Added NCM multiplier part
  
• Included Adders (other than NCM) as well as Modifiers for slots.
  

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Multipower-Like Movement Powers

 

In the standard rules you can't mix modes of movement in a single Phase.

 

Not according to the FAQ:

 

Can a character use two forms of movement in one Phase? If not, why can characters make running leaps?

 

If a character wanted to use two forms of movement in a Phase, he’d have to make a Half Move (defined, as always, as using up to half one’s inches of movement in a Phase) with both, effectively ending his Phase. A “running leap” is just a Leap — making a Leap may involve some running, as discussed by the rules on 5ER 35.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Multipower-Like Movement Powers

 

Well, all right, but close enough anyway. Is that FAQ entry enough to really ruin the comparison? You can take a Zero-Phase action to change a Multipower slot anyway (though admittedly only once per Phase).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Multipower-Like Movement Powers

 

Honestly, this looks like a solution in search of a problem.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Multipower-Like Movement Powers

 

Hmm. You could be right. I'll take that criticism. Heh heh.

 

Now to me the problem is that Movement is generally way too expensive in general, especially versatile movement. It can be damn hard and expensive to build a Speedster. But for a low-powered scenario, it is not expensive enough. To be able to fly in most heroic campaigns for 2 points (even if it's just a slow creep) is just waaaay to cheap. But I guess I'm interested in the general opinion of folks, hence the thread.

 

P.S. - I made a few edits to the origional post, noted specifically as footnotes above.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Multipower-Like Movement Powers

 

Just had another idea. Note how well Clinging fits into this concept, whether it is considered its own mode of movement or still considered a method of applying Running. Extra-Dimensional Movement could possibly also be considered a potential slot, though I'm not sure how the Reserve would apply in that case, so it might be pointless.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Multipower-Like Movement Powers

 

Honestly, this looks like a solution in search of a problem.

 

I disagree. Let's assume Speed Demon has 50" of Running, 25" of Swimming and, with great effort, 10" of Flight. Why should he not be able to:

 

- Run 20" to the Riverbank (40% of a full move)

- Swim 10" across (40% of a Full Move), and

- Fly 1" up to the top of the rocky riverbank on the other side (remaining 20% of a Full Move)?

 

The only reason he can't is that we divide time into arbitrary units. If, instead, he had 40" of Running, 20" of Swimming and, with great effort, 8" of Flight, he could half move run, half move swim, then half move fly in his next phase, so with 80% the movement, he can get there just as fast.

 

I'd like to see the option for combining modes of movement added to the rules.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Multipower-Like Movement Powers

 

I disagree. Let's assume Speed Demon has 50" of Running, 25" of Swimming and, with great effort, 10" of Flight. Why should he not be able to:

 

- Run 20" to the Riverbank (40% of a full move)

- Swim 10" across (40% of a Full Move), and

- Fly 1" up to the top of the rocky riverbank on the other side (remaining 20% of a Full Move)?

 

The only reason he can't is that we divide time into arbitrary units. If, instead, he had 40" of Running, 20" of Swimming and, with great effort, 8" of Flight, he could half move run, half move swim, then half move fly in his next phase, so with 80% the movement, he can get there just as fast.

 

I'd like to see the option for combining modes of movement added to the rules.

 

I quite often allow such mixing myself as a house rule, actually. My point for bringing up the Multipower-like exclusivity is that this is close enough to the existing rules that I think the cost structure isn't too far out there. And I think you have seen that this kind of thing could even be a good step toward allowing such mixing more freely, because it kinda just says: you can move so far, and these are the modes of movement you can use to do it. It would be the exceptions (those "slots" with restricted distance due to a Limitation) that you'd have to deal with when mixing.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Multipower-Like Movement Powers

 

Mixing modes of movement is (presumably) limited by the system as a way to simplify: personally I'm perfectly happy to mix as many modes as you like- it is not as if the maths is that hard.

 

Anyway: Pres's idea - am I being dim or should running be 11 points?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Multipower-Like Movement Powers

 

Anyway: Pres's idea - am I being dim or should running be 11 points?

 

Hmm. Maybe. I admit I just figured the base costs around roughly how expensive each Movement Power is in the standard system; basically what it costs for 10 hexes with each Power (except for Tunneling, which is ridiculous after the initial cost, and Running, which doesn't seem like it is really worth the same as Flight and Teleportation).

[schir1964]

Re: Multipower-Like Movement Powers

 

Movement Reserve

The Movement Reserve represents the total ability of a character to move within a single phase. There are two components that defines the manner in which a character can move: Movement Pool and Movement Slot.

 

Movement Pool

The Movement Pool represents the total points a character may expend n a single phase for movement. Each point expended translates to 2 Meters distance traveled in a single phase.

 

Pool Costs

• Combat Movement: 1 Point Per 2 Meters
  
• Non-Combat Movement: 5 Points Per 2x Combat Movement
  

 

Movement Slot

Each Movement Slot represents a specific Movement Mode.

 

Movement Modes

• 20 Points: Flight
  
• 10 Points: Gliding
  
• 10 Points: Leaping
  
• 15 Points: Running
  
• 10 Points: Swinging
  
• 10 Points: Swimming
  
• 20 Points: Teleportation
  
• 10 Points: Tunneling
  

 

Slot Modifiers

 

Maximum Distance Limitation

• -0: x3/4 to x1 Movement Pool Points
  
• -1/4: x1/2 to x3/4 Movement Pool Points
  
• -1/2: x0 to x12 Movement Pool Points
  

 

Maximum Non-Combat Distance (-1/2): May be applied to any slot that must have less Non-Combat Distance than the Movement Pool.

 

Note: Adders/Modifiers not already mentioned can be applied to each slot. Modifiers that apply to all Movement Modes may be applied to the Movement Pool.

 

GM Notes

Most character's should get the following as Everyman by default:

 

Everyman Movement Reserve

 

Pool (6 Points) [2x Non-Combat]

• Running (15 Points)
  
• Swimming (7 Points) [2 Meter Maximum Distance]
  
• Leaping (7 Points) [2 Meter Maximum Distance]
  

 

Concept By prestidigitator. (Prestidigitator: Let me know if I need to change anything or if did not get things right)

 

Added to New Power Ideas thread.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[prestidigitator]

Re: Multipower-Like Movement Powers

 

Cool Christopher, and thank you. There is one thing that's a little different from my concept. That is this bit:

 

The cost of the slot varies based on the Movement Mode. A character may not exceed his total slot points of movement in a single phase and each slot may not exceed the total pool points.

 

My idea was that the cost of the slot does not vary, except when Adders and Modifers are applied. If you wanted to fly, you'd spend 20 points on a Flight slot, and that would allow you to move the amount that's purchased with the Reserve, whether that be 8 hexes/16m or 50 hexes/100m. Correspondingly, the Everyman slots would be 15 points for Running and 10*2/3 ~= 7 points for each of Swimming and Leaping.

[schir1964]

Re: Multipower-Like Movement Powers

 

Post updated per your instructions.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[CourtFool]

Re: Multipower-Like Movement Powers

 

I kind of like this idea. I have had one or two characters that I bought a Movement Multipower for.

 

I would drop the whole connection with Multipower and just call it Movement with the Movement Modes as power Adders.

[Beast]

Re: Multipower-Like Movement Powers

 

you could mix 2 modes of movement with the "usable as a 2nd mode of movement:advantage

 

 

Running 20", Usable [As Second Mode Of Movement] (swimming; +1/4) (50 Active Points)

 

here you have up to 20" of movement be it water or ground or mix as needed

[Steve Long]

Re: Multipower-Like Movement Powers

 

Leaving aside a variety of specific nitpicky questions and issues, one way to do what you're looking for, Prestidigitator, that doesn't involve Power Frameworks would be Trigger -- either for a single Movement Power, or as a naked Advantage:

 

Trigger (+x) for any Movement Power built on up to YY Active Points; Only To Complete Movement Begun With Another Movement Power Up To Predefined Maximum Half Move Of ZZ" (let's call that -1/2, but the final value would depend on a number of factors I imagine).

 

You'd have to season to taste, but that's the basic idea.

 

Derek (and others) like to joke about doing everything with Transform, but the real secret workhorse of the HERO System is Trigger.

[archermoo]

Re: Multipower-Like Movement Powers

 

Derek (and others) like to joke about doing everything with Transform, but the real secret workhorse of the HERO System is Trigger.

 

Yeah, trigger is pretty much the ultimate "you can do some really cool things with this, but MAN is it easy to abuse" tool.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multipower-Like Movement Powers

 

Trigger On EDM To Where Transform Does What I Need It To Do. . .

 

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Multipower-Like Movement Powers

 

Trigger On EDM To Where Transform Does What I Need It To Do. . .

 

[archermoo]

Re: Multipower-Like Movement Powers

 

Trigger On EDM To Where Transform Does What I Need It To Do. . .

 

 

Which is easy for me at least to deal with. "You use EDM to go to a different dimension where {X} is different? Okay, your character is gone. Would you like to make a new one, or did you want to come back to the dimension where the campaign is?"

 

Did I mention that I never really understood the whole "use EDM to do stuff other than traveling to other dimensions" idea?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multipower-Like Movement Powers

 

you're making the bad joke unfunny by analyzing...

[archermoo]

Re: Multipower-Like Movement Powers

 

you're making the bad joke unfunny by analyzing...

 

True. I'm a bad man.

[CourtFool]

Re: Multipower-Like Movement Powers

 

you're making the bad joke unfunny by analyzing...

 

 

When did that become a crime. I thought it was in the HERO Games Discussion Boards Standard Operating Procedures Manual.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multipower-Like Movement Powers

 

The First Rule Of Hero Discussion is Do Not Analyze Bad Hero Rules Jokes.

[CourtFool]

Re: Multipower-Like Movement Powers

 

The First Rule Of Hero Discussion is Do Not Analyze Bad Hero Rules Jokes.

 

Is that built with Mind Control or Transform?