nexus Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 Re: Reactions to 6e I did like the option to Reflect HTH attacks. That's been needed for awhile, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 Re: Reactions to 6e Now that there are 6 "primary" stats (with COM gone and BODY moved to the bottom of the sheet), can we rename EGO to "Wisdom" and PRE to "Charisma"? Seriously, I noticed that right after the ordering of those, you had OCV/DCV/OMCV/DMCV/PD/ED ("THAC0" and "AC"), SPD ("Attacks/round"), then REC, END, BODY and STUN ("hit points"). Was this unconscious or intentional, guys? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 Re: Reactions to 6e I disagree. The comment about powers only really applies (if at all) to supers games. I see a lot of spells in Fantasy games. DEX-based Skills are among the most useful in a typical action adventure game. Also' date=' DEX Rolls themselves are pretty common.[/quote'] I find Interaction skills are quite useful, as are INT based skills. It depends on how they are used, and the nature of the game. However, if the DEX based skills are more useful, shouldn't the skills themselves be more expensive than other, less useful, skills? I guess the initiative order is an individual thing -- most people I know seem to prefer going first. I'd rather shell out points for levels with DEX rolls (what do those cost? 5?) and extra SPD then buy DEX at 2 points per. +10 DEX for 20 points, or +1 SPD (which likely moves my first action per turn ahead of yours anyway) and +2 levels with DEX skills isn't much of a choice at all in my view. The ancillary benefits of PRE and INT don't seem less beneficial than initiative order either. As for CON' date=' I guess not buying it up is okay if you don't mind spending large amounts of time Stunned. If I'd been Steve, I would have considered leaving both CON and BODY at 2, but I think they will be fine at 1.[/quote'] I think CON becomes a "must purchase". You'd likely be better off buying more defenses, but there's a limit to the defenses you will be allowed to buy, and you need DEF + CON to exceed average attacks or, as you say, spend a lot of time stunned. Except perhaps when you don't have the points to buy 12 point Overall levels or don't see your character as being good at anything but combat. If my character is good at combat, I could buy a 10 point level, or I could buy +1 OCV and +1 DCV. The latter choice means I don't get mental CV or the option to add damage using skill levels. The latter throws the pricing out - I'm not sure what percentage of games routinely see skill levels exchanged for 0 END damage bonuses. I think the problem here is more with GMs letting players buy Characteristics as Powers that really aren't. Unless the rules have changed, Advantages and Limitations can only be applied to Powers. So if you lose your exceptional STR if you allow your hair to be cut, that added STR is a power, even if "lost if allows hair to be cut" is a -0 limitation. As for being overpriced for rare special effects' date=' this may be true for Damage Negation which doesn't seem to allow any Limitation in this situation, but for Damage Reduction, this is addressed in the final paragraph under Damage Reduction As Immunity.[/quote'] Defenses restricted to uncommon SFX have ALWAYS been significantly overpriced, so the worst we can get is a lateral move in this area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kdansky Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 Re: Reactions to 6e Defenses restricted to uncommon SFX have ALWAYS been significantly overpriced, so the worst we can get is a lateral move in this area. One could argue that those defenses often are the most beneficial ones if they apply. Assume you have 20 defenses against a 10d6 Attack. That's 15 stun through defenses out of 35. If you add 10 more (overpriced) defenses versus fire only, you will take a meager 5 stun instead of 15, cutting damage taken down by a factor of 3, which in turn means you can probably not get KOd at all with such attacks. Including misses, recoveries and all that stuff you're pretty much untouchable. IF the additional specialized defenses kick you above the usual hard cap, then they are often worth their above-average cost. (That also means that they are annoyingly overpriced if they don't, but I estimate that to be the rarer case). I know it's not the perfect explanation, but in practice, it can work out easily if one takes care of building the characters that way. Sadly, this is rarely pointed out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hierax Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 Re: Reactions to 6e My reaction to 6e is that it is great, there's a lot of improvements and new tools to customize games with. I'm still going through the massive tomes. The only downside is that things look like they were a bit rushed to get them out for GenCon, but I haven't seen a book without errors yet so I'm not letting that get in the way of all the greatness! P.S. my advice for reading .pdf get a pivoting flatscreen monitor, I got one about 5 years ago and they've got to be a heckofalot cheaper now but you can see pages at a size that is even bigger than the paper hard copy so reading on screen is not a strain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uthanar Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 Re: Reactions to 6e That is exactly how I am reading the PDF Hierax, it is really great. I have it printed out so that I can use it at the table (starting a game on Saturday) but it is easy enough on the computer. Uthanar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnOSpencer Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 Re: Reactions to 6e P.S. my advice for reading .pdf get a pivoting flatscreen monitor' date=' I got one about 5 years ago and they've got to be a heckofalot cheaper now but you can see pages at a size that is even bigger than the paper hard copy so reading on screen is not a strain.[/size'] Now you tell me. My eyes are still bleeding from reading most of both books yesterday. I was skeptical, but I like all the changes I've seen. Not sure if I'm gonna change my game, i'll decide when I have books in my hands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teflon Billy Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 Re: Reactions to 6e P.S. my advice for reading .pdf get a pivoting flatscreen monitor' date=' I got one about 5 years ago and they've got to be a heckofalot cheaper now but you can see pages at a size that is even bigger than the paper hard copy so reading on screen is not a strain.[/size'] Actually they aren't cheaper now. They are not as prevalent any more and they are more expensive than the equivalent non-pivotal LCD. TB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightning91 Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 Re: Reactions to 6e But pivoting the monitor does work well for reading pdfs.... That is after you troubleshoot why the setting won't stick since you updated to SP3 and then have to download a new driver. But working great since then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 Re: Reactions to 6e "Turning Off" Barrier is a 0-Phase Action - just like dismissing an Engtangle was in 5E (as it also was an Instant Power). You can dismiss/Turn Off any Barrier you have created at will. I can't see anything in the whole Barrier description that supports that statement. The only difference I can see for the creator is that he can pick the Barrier up (the "englobing" use anyway) to move it without an attack roll, and that with certain Advantages applied he can seemingly reshape or move it. I have to say that, in all, Barrier is an extremely poorly thought out Power IMO. Throughout it there is a great deal of inconsistency about its transient vs. permanent nature. Parts of the description imply that once its done, its done, but other parts give the creator certain amounts of control under certain sketchy circumstances. As almost an afterthought it is mentioned that if you want the character to have to maintiain it, you should buy Costs Endurance (to maintain), and the benefits that Limitation gives in this case are ignored. I'm pretty happy with most of the changes I've seen so far in 6E, but not this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 Re: Reactions to 6e "Turning Off" Barrier is a 0-Phase Action - just like dismissing an Engtangle was in 5E (as it also was an Instant Power). You can dismiss/Turn Off any Barrier you have created at will. Er...you couldn't dismiss an entangle in 5e (that or I've been doing it wrong all these years - possible ) and you can't dismiss a barrier in 6e: page 170 specifically says that it remains until destroyed. As rjcurrie points out, 6e specifically says that you can create a barrier you have to maintain with the limitation 'costs END'. That's disappointing: it further confuses the relationship between advantages and limitations, and between instant and constant powers. That was confusing enough already. The ability to turn off a barrier is clearly an advantage. You can't affect an instant power's effects after you have used the power. Now I'm very pleased to see that 'Duration advantages' have been clarified (Persistent and Constant are cheaper, and Persistent can no longer be used on an Instant power), but this re-introduces confusion from another angle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 Re: Reactions to 6e Does that mean that you don't let people turn things like Mental Illusions' date=' Mind Control, etc off whenever they want? Those are also Instants.[/quote'] I wouldn't allow them to be turned off any more than I'd allow the damage of an energy blast to be turned off - which is instant. Mental powers have always had this slight oddity of allowing you to continue feeding in END, but you don't get to control the Illusion or Mind Control once it is established: to change it you need to make a new attack. As a house rule I'd allow a new attack (by the character who established the control/illusion) to cancel a former control/illusion without having to roll 'damage'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 Re: Reactions to 6e One could argue that those defenses often are the most beneficial ones if they apply. Assume you have 20 defenses against a 10d6 Attack. That's 15 stun through defenses out of 35. If you add 10 more (overpriced) defenses versus fire only' date=' you will take a meager 5 stun instead of 15, cutting damage taken down by a factor of 3, which in turn means you can probably not get KOd at all with such attacks. Including misses, recoveries and all that stuff you're pretty much untouchable.[/quote'] So you pay 7 points for +10 ED against fire, and once in a while you take 10 less STUN from a fire attack. Meanwhile, a character who paid 7 points for more STUN has 14 more STUN (2:1 in 6e, right?) so he has 4 more STUN after being hit with a fire attack, and 14 more after being hit with an electrical attack, physical attack or any other attack. Who got value for his 7 points? IF the additional specialized defenses kick you above the usual hard cap' date=' then they are often worth their above-average cost. (That also means that they are annoyingly overpriced if they don't, but I estimate that to be the rarer case).[/quote'] The guy who just bought STUN, or another DC of attacks, is able to use his ability every time. The point value should reflect the utility of the ability. A -1/2 limitation implies the ability will be available more often than not. I don't find a single SFX applies more often than not, so I think -1/2 is an inadequate limitation for special defenses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kdansky Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 Re: Reactions to 6e So you pay 7 points for +10 ED against fire, and once in a while you take 10 less STUN from a fire attack. Meanwhile, a character who paid 7 points for more STUN has 14 more STUN (2:1 in 6e, right?) so he has 4 more STUN after being hit with a fire attack, and 14 more after being hit with an electrical attack, physical attack or any other attack. Who got value for his 7 points? The guy who just bought STUN, or another DC of attacks, is able to use his ability every time. The point value should reflect the utility of the ability. A -1/2 limitation implies the ability will be available more often than not. I don't find a single SFX applies more often than not, so I think -1/2 is an inadequate limitation for special defenses. I have not yet gotten a chance to go through the new PDFs (I'm at work and have just ordered them), so Stun at 2:1 is (good!) news to me. For a -1/2 Defense limitation I would go with SFX that is excessively common, such as Magic in a Fantasy campaign, or Guns in Dark Champions. You're perfectly right that -1/2 is a low limitation for defenses. OTOH: If you get hit twice, your 14 stun won't save you anymore, the (restricted) PD will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 Re: Reactions to 6e OTOH: If you get hit twice' date=' your 14 stun won't save you anymore, the (restricted) PD will.[/quote'] If it's the right SFX and your opponent doesn't change tactics. So not very often, where the 14 STUN always helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kdansky Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 Re: Reactions to 6e I would probably also prefer to have the 14 stun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 Re: Reactions to 6e Personally I think that -1/2 is nowhere near enough of a limitation for 'fire only'. Given the enormous range of energy types available, even though fire and heat is a relatively common sfx, it has to be worth at least -1 and more likely -2. -1/2 means that your power is limited about 1/3 of the time. Are 2/3 of attacks fire? I think not. That's why limited defences are a bad idea: we have the limitation values wrong. For a proper (well, clearer, anyway) comparison compare +10 ED (v fire) against +20 STUN (v fire). You're correcting for unique factors as much as you can. If you get hit once in a combat, for more than 10 points of damage by fire, the Stun is a better bet - although you may take less 'base stun' but still be stunned. Otherwise, go with defences, even with the new low cost of Stun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kdansky Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 Re: Reactions to 6e -1/2 means that your power is limited about 1/3 of the time. Are 2/3 of attacks fire? I think not. Technically: Are 2/3 of ENERGY attacks fire? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markdoc Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 Re: Reactions to 6e But pivoting the monitor does work well for reading pdfs.... Yeah, the answer to reading on screen is has to be "get a bigger/better monitor". I have nice bright hi-res LCD, which is big enough to have two pages open at greater than 100% - and still have the index open on the side. I now find I prefer reading technical .pdfs (like games rules) on-screen rather than on paper (and it didn't use to be that way). The text is bigger, and I can jump back and forth, and find stuff far faster than I can with a stack of books. That might be a financial problem for some people, but the screens are getting cheaper - I paid over 5 grand for my first big LCD computer screen and it was smaller, lower resolution and way more expensive than the one I have now. cheers, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hierax Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 Re: Reactions to 6e I paid about $1,500 CDN for a 21" pivot about 5 years ago. A 17" or 19" one should be really cheap by now... Hmm, a 22" pivot is $270 CDN! Wow, if you have a desktop why wouldn't you have a pivot monitor?! It's actually an odd artifact of computers that monitors are landscape orientation by default, portrait makes so much more sense, especially if you deal with books and e-books. They had pivoting CRT's in the early-mid 90's but cultural innertial and needless tradition reach even into the high tech world. Just saying, if you read a lot of stuff on the screen, be it webpages or e-books, the absolute best investment you can make for your desktop is a pivoting monitor. Sorry, end of digression. Back on topic. "Nuff Said" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 Re: Reactions to 6e I like landscape because for design, art and layout stuff the extra horizontal space is more important for floating menus than vertical space would be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hierax Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 Re: Reactions to 6e but with Pivoting you get both Horizontal and Vertical / Landscape and Portrait. You can switch for the task at hand. Reading e-book = portrait; doing layout large scale with a 2 page or 4 page spread = landscape; doing text editing = portrait; watching a movie = landscape; etc. Pivot is a 2 slot Multi-Powered Monitor! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 Re: Reactions to 6e Technically: Are 2/3 of ENERGY attacks fire? You're right - but are they? No There's about 20 or 30 sfx listed in Hero as examples. Even if Fire is far and away the most popular sfx 'Only v Fire' is still only worth a -1 to -2, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted August 23, 2009 Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 Re: Reactions to 6e You're right - but are they? No There's about 20 or 30 sfx listed in Hero as examples. Even if Fire is far and away the most popular sfx 'Only v Fire' is still only worth a -1 to -2, IMO. There is no universal yes or no. The answer is entirely campaign dependent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulcan Posted August 24, 2009 Report Share Posted August 24, 2009 Re: Reactions to 6e "Turning Off" Barrier is a 0-Phase Action - just like dismissing an Engtangle was in 5E (as it also was an Instant Power). You can dismiss/Turn Off any Barrier you have created at will. Actually, no. Steve's official answer when the question was asked was that unless a Barrier costs END to maintain (in which case all you have to do is stop paying END), once it is there, it is there FOREVER - or at least until it is broken / wear away naturally (i.e. ice wall melts away). For a Barrier than can be dismissed, either buy a separate Dispel only vs. your own Barriers, or make it nonpersistent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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