Chris Goodwin Posted August 24, 2009 Report Share Posted August 24, 2009 Re: 6e Discussion: Combat Values [RANT]And it's not "DEX Creep" - it was this way from the very first edition. The typical Super had 23 DEX then and has 23 DEX now.[/RANT] You are absolutely correct. I once posted an analysis of characters from Enemies II and Enemies III. DEX values were around the 20-30 range, with some oddballs, like the martial artist with 42 DEX, or the real oddball brick type with DEX 7 and SPD 6! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Goodwin Posted August 24, 2009 Report Share Posted August 24, 2009 Re: 6e Discussion: Combat Values To give an example of 5E silliness: Ballerina: Row of 10s, 20 DEX. Weight Lifter: Row of 10s, 20 STR. Who will win? Speed 3 Ballerina with CV 7 and 2d6 Normal Damage, or Speed 2 Lifter with CV 4 and 4d6 Normal Damage? I would not say it's in his favour, but in reality, I'd rather brawl against a Ballerina than a Weightlifter. Because in reality, both have CV 3, like in 6E. I wouldn't want to get kicked by a ballerina! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Goodwin Posted August 24, 2009 Report Share Posted August 24, 2009 Re: 6e Discussion: Combat Values I guess' date=' being the perrenial GM and toolkit freakazoid, I have a different viewpoint on the costing issue vis-a-vis DEX. If its something I can houserule with a regnant wave of my hand and minimal if any effort its not a problem. I hereby declare its cost to be 1. Problem solved. For me, at least. The same goes for banning sellbacks or just dropping all combat values to 0. I feel my kingly might deep in my loins. I know I will probably be flamed with the "it shouldn't have to be house ruled" argument. I guess in a world where Steve was invested with some sort of dubious hero pontiff infallibility that would be true. As it is, he's flesh and blood and entitled to feel differently about the importance of initiative value than I do. Its not right or wrong, per se. Its just a different style and emphasis due to the kinds of games he likes to run.[/quote'] Vondy, as always you are wise. Repped, if I can (and I could, so I did!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Main Man Posted August 24, 2009 Report Share Posted August 24, 2009 Re: 6e Discussion: Combat Values Just a thought: could Agility Skill Levels be priced as they are to generate interest in Intellect and Interaction Skills? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted August 24, 2009 Report Share Posted August 24, 2009 Re: 6e Discussion: Combat Values Maybe, personally I usually invested in Intellect Skill Levels more often than any others anyways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Main Man Posted August 24, 2009 Report Share Posted August 24, 2009 Re: 6e Discussion: Combat Values Maybe' date=' personally I usually invested in Intellect Skill Levels more often than any others anyways.[/quote'] What can I say, thinking/talking one's way through things can be just as interesting as just going through with all guns blazing (many times it is even more interesting as it serves as a breath of fresh air in a lot of groups). For the moment, I will cite Beverly Hills Cop as a good example of playing through scenarios without a "combat" mentality everywhere one goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
director13 Posted August 24, 2009 Report Share Posted August 24, 2009 Re: 6e Discussion: Combat Values What can I say, thinking/talking one's way through things can be just as interesting as just going through with all guns blazing (many times it is even more interesting as it serves as a breath of fresh air in a lot of groups). For the moment, I will cite Beverly Hills Cop as a good example of playing through scenarios without a "combat" mentality everywhere one goes. I agree, but it doesn't seem like that's where the bulk of the rules are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Main Man Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 Re: 6e Discussion: Combat Values I agree' date=' but it doesn't seem like that's where the bulk of the rules are.[/quote'] One of the big revelations for me during the 6e discussions is that Combat is simply a massively detailed skill.But this being a RPG, most of which focus on adventure and action, it's natural for the system to focus on combat.To me, the repricing of Intellect and Interaction Skills makes playing a non-combatant cheaper and more viable, but YMMV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 Re: 6e Discussion: Combat Values One of the big revelations for me during the 6e discussions is that Combat is simply a massively detailed skill.But this being a RPG' date=' most of which focus on adventure and action, it's natural for the system to focus on combat.To me, the repricing of Intellect and Interaction Skills makes playing a non-combatant cheaper and more viable, but YMMV.[/quote'] You mean like a noncombatant Rogue who is skilled in picking locks, removal of traps, climbing walls, picking pockets, tumbling and other such feats? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted August 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 Re: 6e Discussion: Combat Values Personally I'd have liked to see PER split off from INT, Combat Order split off from DEX and PRE attacks quietly taken round the back and kicked to death. Then all DEX, INT and PRE would really do is control skill rolls, and act as a reservoir for targeting by adjustment powers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Main Man Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 Re: 6e Discussion: Combat Values You mean like a noncombatant Rogue who is skilled in picking locks' date=' removal of traps, climbing walls, picking pockets, tumbling and other such feats? [/quote'] Yeah, that'll be the day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaws Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 Re: 6e Discussion: Combat Values Personally I'd have liked to see PER split off from INT, Combat Order split off from DEX and PRE attacks quietly taken round the back and kicked to death. Then all DEX, INT and PRE would really do is control skill rolls, and act as a reservoir for targeting by adjustment powers. But then again, with that, why target them at all if they don't mean that much... adjust Characteristics is not really that attractive now anymore... except maybe STR and Body. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted August 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 Re: 6e Discussion: Combat Values But then again' date=' with that, why target them at all if they don't mean that much... adjust Characteristics is not really that attractive now anymore... except maybe STR and Body.[/quote'] That's a good point: it would cost as much to change a skill roll by -1 as it does OCV or DCV...but the difference is if you get them down to 0 INT/PRE/DEX there are pretty serious consequences. (I'm not convinced ditching negative characteristics was necessary or a great idea, but it was rarely a major issue anyway). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted August 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 Re: 6e Discussion: Combat Values Actually, that has me thinking. You want a 'Freeze Opponent' power: drain v DEX, SPD, OCV and DCV. That's 4 abilities, which is +1 1/2. Say 2d6 ranged drain (60 points). You roll 10 points: that is -5 DEX (equivalent of -1 on agility skills), -1 SPD, -1 DCV (value halved as it is defensive) and -2 OCV. under 5e you'd have lost 3 DEX (and a point toward another) and 1 SPD, which MIGHT mean -1 on agility skills and would mean -1 OCV and -1 DCV. OCV and Agility skills drop off proportionally quicker than they would have in 5e. Of course the drain would have cost less in 5e: 50 instead of 60, but that's only a point or two more in effect: hmm... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 Re: 6e Discussion: Combat Values Just a note: 4D6 Drain; 4 Characteristics At Once (+1 1/2) = 100 Active Points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted August 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 Re: 6e Discussion: Combat Values Just a note: 4D6 Drain; 4 Characteristics At Once (+1 1/2) = 100 Active Points. I'd caught that one: amended appropriately Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Main Man Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 Re: 6e Discussion: Combat Values No more Negative Characteristics, eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archermoo Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 Re: 6e Discussion: Combat Values No more Negative Characteristics' date=' eh?[/quote'] Nope. Which involved re-writing the STR Chart, though only from either 5 or 10 down as I recall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GamePhil Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 Re: 6e Discussion: Combat Values Actually, that has me thinking. You want a 'Freeze Opponent' power: drain v DEX, SPD, OCV and DCV. That's 4 abilities, which is +1 1/2. Say 2d6 ranged drain (60 points). Isn't that 50 points? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajackson Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 Re: 6e Discussion: Combat Values Isn't that 50 points? You probably missed that it was a ranged drain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 Re: 6e Discussion: Combat Values right now I do not see the need to buy a Dex of over 23 for a 14- roll any higher I'd go with lightning reflexes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 Re: 6e Discussion: Combat Values considering that Int remained pretty much untouched it could have been replaced by becoming a talent at 5pts per +1 for Int and Percpetion One of the big revelations for me during the 6e discussions is that Combat is simply a massively detailed skill.But this being a RPG' date=' most of which focus on adventure and action, it's natural for the system to focus on combat.To me, the repricing of Intellect and Interaction Skills makes playing a non-combatant cheaper and more viable, but YMMV.[/quote'] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 Re: 6e Discussion: Combat Values considering that Int remained pretty much untouched it could have been replaced by becoming a talent at 5pts per +1 for Int and Percpetion Oh yeah! In fact, we could just replace all the Characteristics with Talents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 Re: 6e Discussion: Combat Values You probably missed that it was a ranged drain. Drain - and in fact all Attack Powers - is now Ranged by default. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 Re: 6e Discussion: Combat Values it has been brought up that who goes first is more on who is mentally ready but having a quick reaction time does not hurt sounding like a figured stat is needed using say Int=assess the situation Dex=body movement Ego=force of will to not be overwhelmed by the situation that might cause hesitation Int+Dex+Ego/3=Reaction time Reaction time/5+9 for a skill roll to break ties Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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