1755

[Sean Waters]

So, I have this character called 'Shadowstar', and I've done a conversion of him from 5e to 6e.

 

He's a 'straight' conversion; no messing about - just copied what the 5e version can do to a 6e version, like for like.

 

Here are the preview links:

 

Shadowstar 5e

 

Shadowstar 6e

 

I was surprised at the cost difference. Now, of course, it is possible I've done something wrong with the conversion, but I've been using HD and it looks about right - do point out any conversion problems.

 

The thing is that this is not an exceptional character - at least I do not think so: I thought that the EC would make more of a difference but it is only 5 points in practice.

 

The BIG difference is in characteristics. Sheesh; 66 points.

 

That means that, even with the extra 50 points you get for being a 6e Superhero, you're in the red to the tune of 67 points. That is a LOT. You'd have to make swingeing cuts to fit that one in, losing major powers or cutting them to virtual uselessness.

 

Anyway, I thought it might make an interesting discussion point, especially as the sample supers in 6e (conversions of the 5e ones) pretty much fit the points (there are some abilities dropped, like Taurus' missile deflection).

 

What are other people's conversion experiences?

[lemming]

Re: 1755

 

EC based chars and Char characters seem to have been hit the hardest at around 10-20% higher overall cost. Though I want to do another pass and see what can be redone.

[Sean Waters]

Re: 1755

 

Please do: I'm intrigued to know where it all goes.

 

In fact something that has cost a lot more was the resurrection regeneration. The EC was only 5 points less than the unified power array.

 

You're right about characteristics though: in fact I said it was 66 points but in fact it is something like 81 points because I had to make up teh figured characteristics from the OIHID Strength in the powers section of the 6e version.

 

You actually get 14% more points in 6e anyway.

 

What I'm really interested in is this: I know that the book characters convert up reasonably well - I'd expect that as they were probably used to help work out costs - but how do the characters that people actually build fare?

[Bloodstone]

Re: 1755

 

but how do the characters that people actually build fare?

 

Somewhat depends on if you were going for points efficiency or built to concept...

[Nevenall]

Re: 1755

 

For straight conversions I've seen 50-60 points increases in Characteristics costs, but most of my 5ed characters had inflated primary chars to begin with. When I re-evaluate what's appropriate for them it usually works out pretty well.

For most characters I don't buy any OMCV, and I usually decrease their OCV and DCV 1 or 2 points in the 6ed version.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 1755

 

Well, 16 points comes from the Resurrection capability. I question whether regrow Limbs and Resurrect should ever have been subject to the Regeneration extra time limitation, since they are typically undertaken "over time out of combat".

 

The savings from Unified Power is devalued a bit because it stacks with your OIHID. I think the cost of the EC powers has increased 25 points, rather than 5 points. Unlike many characters, this one has no ancillary powers which can benefit from the Unified Powers limitation.

 

I didn't look too hard, but I don't see where his OCV and DCV get paid for. His other characteristic costs total 122, and HD gets 184 for characteristics. That leaves 12 extra points unaccounted for (he raised OCV and DCV by 5 each, so 50 points there).

 

The impact of loss of figured characteristics is not insignificant. I note that:

 

- DEX + SPD previously cost 56 points (39 for +13 DEX and 17 for +1.7 SPD). It now costs 106 (26 for +13 DEX, 30 for +3 SPD, 25 for +5 OCV and 25 for +5 DCV). That added cost alone eats up the 50 additional points available for a 23 DEX 5 SPD - typical - Super.

 

- STR 60 previously cost 50, but now costs 85 (50 + 10 for PD + 10 for REC + 15 for STUN + 10 for Leaping), so there's another 45 points for a Brick.

 

- CON 28 used to cost 36, and now costs 46 points (18 for CON, 4 for ED, 8 for REC, 9 for Stun and 7(.2) for END - you could have 4 more END for free, Sean), so there's another 10 points.

 

That's 147 for characteristics alone, so I'm not sure how it was determined that the "typical" Super would suffer a loss of 50 points. A typical 23 DEX, 5 SPD Super needs 50 points to stay even. A typical Super with 23 CON loses another 8 points, so that's 58 just to stay even, with no other considerations.

 

A 30 DEX, 6 SPD Martial Artist is out 80 points before considering STR or CON at all (60 + 20 before; 40+40+40+40 in 6e).

 

I know someone in SETAC did an array of conversions that seemed to indicate 50 was about right, but I'm not sure how those conversions were done. From the above, it seems to me 50 may be a floor for the loss suffered by a 350 point Super rather than an average. Maybe if the base points went to 325 and he still had 150 points in Disadvantages - ShadowStar would have 8 points left over in that case.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: 1755

 

Please do: I'm intrigued to know where it all goes.

 

Your characteristic points total comes to 184 but my arithmetic makes it 122...

 

Maybe I'm missing something (don't have the rules yet) but is the sheet simply bundling up costs??

 

I'm not actually reading the character sheet very well - too many numbers without obvious meanings

 

Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 1755

 

Your characteristic points total comes to 184 but my arithmetic makes it 122...

 

Maybe I'm missing something (don't have the rules yet) but is the sheet simply bundling up costs??

 

I'm not actually reading the character sheet very well - too many numbers without obvious meanings

 

Some of this is that the costs of OCV and DCV is not in the characteristics block (or anywhere on the sheet). That's 50 points, but I'm not sure where the other 12 got "spent".

[Sean Waters]

Re: 1755

 

Somewhat depends on if you were going for points efficiency or built to concept...

 

I don't know if it does, but I'd like to know. Shadowstar was not really built for point efficiency, although it may be that I've been doing it so long that it comes automatically. The build is actually a pretty good match for the concept.

[Sean Waters]

Re: 1755

 

The costs are all calculated by HD: must admit I have not checked them. if that is wrong, it could explain a lot...no, it is alright: 62 points for the combat values: 50 for OCV and DCV, 12 for MOCV and MDCV...but Hugh is right the EC is 25 points cheaper: with the Resurrection saving (and i hear what you say about that...nasty build, but official, I believe) that takes a big chunk out of the excess points.

[Sean Waters]

Re: 1755

 

D'oh - leaping - didn't increase that for the 6e version, so it will be more expensive than I thought: 474 points - I've amended the posted version.

[secretID]

Re: 1755

 

STR and DEX were huge bargains in 5e - roughly 2:1 and 1.5:1 values, respectively, so any character with alot of points in STR and/or DEX will be creamed. If there's an EC too, all the worse.

 

In Steve's character conversion pdf, he talks about grandfathering. I don't know how I feel about it. Obviously, some characters will take a much bigger hit than will others, but weren't the changes based on the idea (right or wrong) that the old costs were no good? That would mean that any change to the price of characters is a correction. If and when I convert my campaign, I think I'll require rewrites from scratch.

 

On the other hand, maybe I'll just leave all the figured stats, but change the pricing of STR and DEX a bit. Is there any big problem with house ruling in figured stats while adopting the rest of 6e?

[Sean Waters]

Re: 1755

 

STR and DEX were huge bargains in 5e - roughly 2:1 and 1.5:1 values, respectively, so any character with alot of points in STR and/or DEX will be creamed. If there's an EC too, all the worse.

 

In Steve's character conversion pdf, he talks about grandfathering. I don't know how I feel about it. Obviously, some characters will take a much bigger hit than will others, but weren't the changes based on the idea (right or wrong) that the old costs were no good? That would mean that any change to the price of characters is a correction. If and when I convert my campaign, I think I'll require rewrites from scratch.

 

On the other hand, maybe I'll just leave all the figured stats, but change the pricing of STR and DEX a bit. Is there any big problem with house ruling in figured stats while adopting the rest of 6e?

 

 

This is true, and Shadowstar is a very strong character, but as Hugh points out, his DEX is nothing particularly special for the genre and it seems, looking at example characters, that the former build pattern is being set as the starting point for new characters.

 

I might re-imagine Shadowstar with a lower DCV and OMCV, saving a few points, and probably a lower DEX too, but most of the rest of the stuff is pretty integral. He is, I suppose, a pretty tasty character...

[Nevenall]

Re: 1755

 

"Distinctive Feature: Haz a flavor"?

[Sean Waters]

Re: 1755

 

"Distinctive Feature: Haz a flavor"?

 

Cinnamon Buns

[ghost-angel]

Re: 1755

 

I know someone in SETAC did an array of conversions that seemed to indicate 50 was about right' date=' but I'm not sure how those conversions were done. From the above, it seems to me 50 may be a floor for the loss suffered by a 350 point Super rather than an average. Maybe if the base points went to 325 and he still had 150 points in Disadvantages - ShadowStar would have 8 points left over in that case.[/quote']

 

The original spreadsheet cover 102 Characters from the Core Book and all the Genre Books through Post-Apocalyptic.

 

The AVERAGE difference for every single character was 38. For Superheroic was 49.

 

When SETAC went further and did all 400 some published Champions Characters the numbers did this:

Average Point Difference: 51

Mode Point Difference: 54

Median Point Difference: 49

 

Across a large enough volume, 50 Points was a good number to settle on. Some were well above this (the maximum point increase was 154 Points) some way below (one character cost 10 Points less).

 

Of course - it's an Average increase, which means some characters will find themselves with more points to work with, and some less.

 

I would wager that the average PC in an ongoing campaign after Experience expenditures, might be more than 50. But Steve has no way of even guessing how much more than 50 - so he went with what he had.

 

Similar findings were made at the Heroic level, only the number was closer to 25.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: 1755

 

The costs are all calculated by HD: must admit I have not checked them. if that is wrong' date=' it could explain a lot...no, it is alright: 62 points for the combat values: 50 for OCV and DCV, 12 for MOCV and MDCV...but Hugh is right the EC is 25 points cheaper: with the Resurrection saving (and i hear what you say about that...nasty build, but official, I believe) that takes a big chunk out of the excess points.[/quote']

 

Doesn't this also say something about the character sheet? We are dedicated HERO geeks and we are not quite capable of looking and assessing the sheet. Can you imagine someone new coming to that?

 

It does not shout comicbooks or superheroes...we are definitely missing a trick and this explains why so many people equate the game with serious mathematics - the numbers are seriously in your face...

 

Doc

[Guest steamteck]

Re: 1755

 

Doesn't this also say something about the character sheet? We are dedicated HERO geeks and we are not quite capable of looking and assessing the sheet. Can you imagine someone new coming to that?

 

It does not shout comicbooks or superheroes...we are definitely missing a trick and this explains why so many people equate the game with serious mathematics - the numbers are seriously in your face...

 

Doc

 

Maybe it says more about overdependance on HERO designer?

[Beast]

Re: 1755

 

Str should have been the only stat divorced from having figured stats

then refigure the rest for having figured

 

I'm going to see what it looks like with Dex

to see if buying large group levels(5 pt) and lightning reflexes is a better buy

 

 

STR and DEX were huge bargains in 5e - roughly 2:1 and 1.5:1 values, respectively, so any character with alot of points in STR and/or DEX will be creamed. If there's an EC too, all the worse.

 

In Steve's character conversion pdf, he talks about grandfathering. I don't know how I feel about it. Obviously, some characters will take a much bigger hit than will others, but weren't the changes based on the idea (right or wrong) that the old costs were no good? That would mean that any change to the price of characters is a correction. If and when I convert my campaign, I think I'll require rewrites from scratch.

 

On the other hand, maybe I'll just leave all the figured stats, but change the pricing of STR and DEX a bit. Is there any big problem with house ruling in figured stats while adopting the rest of 6e?

[Beast]

Re: 1755

 

well selling back 10 dex and buying 23 lightning reflexes and 5 skill levels is 33 pts

where buying just straight dex is 26 pts for a 23 dex

I'd go with lightning reflexes for any dex over 23 as a 14- roll is really all you need

[Doc Democracy]

Re: 1755

 

Maybe it says more about overdependance on HERO designer?

 

I have actually tried it. every year my old university friends have a gaming club reunion in the university we went to. We stay in halls of residence and game in the union bar. We have four days of gaming among friends.

 

In one year I ran a game twice, once with bog standard sheets and once with customised player friendly sheets. I actually played the same characters and claimed the second set were made up with a different system called BLAM! I said I wanted to test the two systems to see which of them got the genre better for the same characters.

 

In every case they said they preferred BLAM! to HERO and it was simply due to the more difficult system in HERO. 'Cept of course that both were played using HERO, just using a different presentation and different character sheets.

 

HD could make this kind of thing much easier. I love HD but you should be able to look at a character sheet and intuitively understand what the numbers are for. If you cannot then you are effectively trying to sell UNIX to Mac users...

 

 

 

Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 1755

 

I might re-imagine Shadowstar with a lower DCV and OMCV' date=' saving a few points, and probably a lower DEX too, but most of the rest of the stuff is pretty integral. He is, I suppose, a pretty tasty character...[/quote']

 

And there's the missing 12 points - OMCV and DMCV!

 

The original spreadsheet cover 102 Characters from the Core Book and all the Genre Books through Post-Apocalyptic.

 

The AVERAGE difference for every single character was 38. For Superheroic was 49.

 

OK, I have to ask where the average Superheroic character was saving points. As we have established above, the cost of a 23 DEX and 5 SPD in 5e was 39 + 17 = 56. The cost of a 23 DEX, 5 SPD, 8 OCV and 8 DCV in 6e is 26 + 30 + 25 + 25 = 106. That's a 50 point difference up front.

 

Anyone with higher STR also costs significantly more. CON is pretty comparable, only marginally more expensive in 6e. But an average DEX/SPD Super costs 50 points more, so I'm curious which ones came out with a significantly lower total than 50. Can you give us a few examples from the 400+ published Champions characters of those where costs rose by less (and identify the one who dropped by 10)?

 

I haven't looked at Heroic characters. However, even a character with 15 DEX and 3 SPD (average to low in Heroic, I think) would pay 20 points in 5e. Getting a 15 DEX, 3 SPD and 5 OCV and DCV would now cost 10 + 20 + 10 + 10 = 50, for an increase of 30 points.

 

GA, how confident are you of that spreadsheet? It seems to me that something here doesn't make sense, since fairly standard levels of DEX and SPD alone seems to account for most/all of the average cost increase, and I definitely can't think of anything that characters commonly purchased a lot of which has declined in value.

[Tasha]

Re: 1755

 

Yeah, I was finding it hard to really compare the characters. You exported your 6E character using a 5e Export Template. So I couldn't see what your OCV/DCV/OMCV/DMCV values were.

 

So from the looks of things you purchased more powers on the 6e version than you did on the 5e version. Again as I can't see all of your stats, it's hard to see where the differences are.

 

Tasha

[ghost-angel]

Re: 1755

 

The spreadsheet is accurate.

 

After looking at 400 characters on spreadsheets... everyone's view of the Average Superhuman in the CU is ... well ... NOT.

 

The average DEX is closer to 20.

 

If you want the actual average DEX or any other Characteristic you'll have to wait for me to get some other things done first that I find actually important.

[secretID]

Re: 1755

 

The spreadsheet is accurate.

 

After looking at 400 characters on spreadsheets... everyone's view of the Average Superhuman in the CU is ... well ... NOT.

 

The average DEX is closer to 20.

 

If you want the actual average DEX or any other Characteristic you'll have to wait for me to get some other things done first that I find actually important.

Uh...I only see one person here questioning the accuracy of the analysis - and it was just a question.

 

If/when I convert my campaign, I think I'll just ask everyone to do a rough conversion, then take the average of the points needed (or maybe the max?) and allow everyone that much.