Legatus Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 Re: Champions Background Information I think this should be a lesson to everyone on these boards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PamelaIsley Posted October 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 Re: Champions Background Information For those who care, I read through all of the three books I bought. I can't find the 2002 Champions genre book, or else I would buy it. The only complaint I'm left with after all this is a lack of information on the superheroes of this world. The villains book, in particular, was quite good. The other two were choppy because I felt like I was missing big pieces of the story. The 2005 update book, in particular, really needs the original material to make much sense. Edit: Just as I gave up, a search for "DOJHERO200" found it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Ops Posted October 19, 2009 Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 Re: Champions Background Information The 2005 update book, in particular, really needs the original material to make much sense. Thats (unfortunatley) correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted October 19, 2009 Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 Re: Champions Background Information For those who care, I read through all of the three books I bought. I can't find the 2002 Champions genre book, or else I would buy it. The only complaint I'm left with after all this is a lack of information on the superheroes of this world. The villains book, in particular, was quite good. The other two were choppy because I felt like I was missing big pieces of the story. The 2005 update book, in particular, really needs the original material to make much sense. Edit: Just as I gave up, a search for "DOJHERO200" found it. I'm glad you were able to locate the genre book. From your earlier comments I wasn't certain you would be interested in buying any more Hero books, or I would have suggested other places online where you'd have a good chance of finding it. With the genre book plus Champions Universe: News Of The World, you'll have full information about many of the heroes written up for the United States in the CU, and the original Champions Universe setting book at least mentions most of the rest. Stats for a number of other heroes appear in sourcebooks more focussed on particular areas of the setting, e.g. Millennium City, Champions Of The North, Hidden Lands, or Champions Worldwide. You have to keep in mind that since players of both the PnP RPG and the MMO generally prefer to create their own characters, they're as a whole much more interested in the villains they'll be fighting than in NPC heroes. Hence while villain compilations like Conquerors, Killers, And Crooks sell well, there's much less demand for books of NPC heroes, so less incentive for Hero Games to publish them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PamelaIsley Posted October 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 Re: Champions Background Information It makes sense that villain books sell better than heroe books. The problem is that so many villain writeups reference heroes and those heroes appear in nothing I have. So the stories are always lacking something. The Champions universe is very silver age, and that's not quite my taste, but it makes for an interesting read. I will say, though, that much of this has been contradicted by the video game. Almost anything Champions Online has touched does not match up very well with the background material. That probably means that the 6th edition will contain quite a few changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted October 19, 2009 Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 Re: Champions Background Information I will say' date=' though, that much of this has been contradicted by the video game. Almost anything Champions Online has touched does not match up very well with the background material. That probably means that the 6th edition will contain quite a few changes.[/quote'] Yes and no. The video game has definitely added a substantial amount of new plot development, and in some cases new characters or tweaks to older characters; and it more often than not changes the characters' appearances from how they look in the books. However, IME the background history of the world and characters up to the beginning of the 21st Century, as represented in the PnP books, is almost wholly the same, so is still applicable. That said, Steve Long has stated definitively that new Champions Universe material will conform to Cryptic Studios' vision in all major respects, and will incorporate events from the MMO in the time line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba smith Posted October 19, 2009 Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 Re: Champions Background Information VIDEO game?? i thought it was a COMPUTER GAME Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted October 19, 2009 Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 Re: Champions Background Information Well, neither of them would be much fun without the "video" part, and any of them would be hard to run without a computer. Point taken, but it was just how Pamela phrased it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PamelaIsley Posted October 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 Re: Champions Background Information Everything is a videogame to me, whether computer or XBox. Menton is very different in the game than in the villains book. VIPER feels much more like COBRA from GI Joe in the game than in the books. It goes from mere homage to almost complete rip-off. DEMON has a lot more demons it seems in the game. ARGENT also seems to have relegitimized themselves, compared how its shown in the book. It goes on and on. Everything feels very different. And I started with the online game, so you'd think I'd be more likely to bend the book to conform with it, but it just feels like two different worlds to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted October 19, 2009 Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 Re: Champions Background Information Menton is very different in the game than in the villains book. Appearance-wise, and in being a "bodyjacker," absolutely. His history otherwise is nearly identical, though. VIPER feels much more like COBRA from GI Joe in the game than in the books. It goes from mere homage to almost complete rip-off. DEMON has a lot more demons it seems in the game. That may have something to do with an MMORPG emphasizing punching or blasting things more than investigating or otherwise finessing them. ARGENT also seems to have relegitimized themselves' date=' compared how its shown in the book.[/quote'] Mind you, in the books ARGENT often uses front companies as a legitimate screen for its activities. It goes on and on. Everything feels very different. And I started with the online game, so you'd think I'd be more likely to bend the book to conform with it, but it just feels like two different worlds to me. I have to say, a number of HERO fans have expressed concern that an MMO version of the Champions Universe just can't capture the greater depth and variety of the tabletop RPG; and that the latter may suffer as the new edition of the world tries to conform more closely to the former. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Long Posted October 20, 2009 Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 Re: Champions Background Information Menton is very different in the game than in the villains book. VIPER feels much more like COBRA from GI Joe in the game than in the books. It goes from mere homage to almost complete rip-off. DEMON has a lot more demons it seems in the game. ARGENT also seems to have relegitimized themselves, compared how its shown in the book. All of this results from one simple fact: the needs of a computer "RPG" (MMO or otherwise) are different from those of a tabletop RPG. For example, in an MMO, the opponents have to be visually distinct and easily identified as villains. Menton as an ordinary guy in a suit doesn't cut it for MMO purposes. A guy with a big glowing brain-head does. VIPER started out, 30 years ago, as a sort of HYDRA homage, but over the intervening decades those of us who've written about it have taken some pains to try to distinguish it, make it different and better suited for the Champions Universe. Unfortunately those sorts of changes don't come across well in a combat-/action-oriented MMO, so it seems like a more two-dimensional organization than it really is. The same could be said for ARGENT -- an organization that's more like an actual corporation or business doesn't really come across well in an MMO. So, Cryptic made them a bit more overt and action-oriented, and IMO rightly so. DEMON is an incredibly subtle organization in many ways, but even in the best MMOs subtle doesn't work well. So you give 'em a bunch of demons to fight the PCs with instead on-screen, and it works out fine. So really, what we're getting here, I think, is the best of both worlds. We've got a kick-ass MMO set in the CU that's a lot of fun to play, and a richly-developed superhero setting that can be developed in a much more detailed, subtler way through the books. It's a win-win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PamelaIsley Posted October 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 Re: Champions Background Information It's your gaming world, so if you're satisfied, that's all that counts. I've dumped a ton of money and time into the Champions Online game, so I can't act as though I'm too critical. But its storylines and characters are very, very cartoonish. I think it will be a challenge taking that and grafting it back over top of something as deep as the tabletop Champions, just based on the books I've read. In terms of background material (or, if I'm not using the term wrong, fluff), I think the change from 5e to 6e looks very much like the change in DnD from 2e to 3e. I bet these 5e Champions books will be very much in demand for a long time, just like people continued to acquire the 2e TSR stuff because of the shortcomings of 3e's "fluff." Incidentally, I think CO could have drawn the line at including HISS (sorry, Anaconda) tanks and Crimson Guardsmen for VIPER. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Long Posted October 20, 2009 Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 Re: Champions Background Information Well, if you want to see how I do the grafting, we'll be publishing a stand-along Champions Online RPG early next year that will directly translate MMO stuff (like the powers) into HERO terms. I can't cover everything because it's just too big a game, but I think there'll be more than enough juicy goodness in there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PamelaIsley Posted October 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 Re: Champions Background Information Well' date=' if you want to see how [i']I[/i] do the grafting, we'll be publishing a stand-along Champions Online RPG early next year that will directly translate MMO stuff (like the powers) into HERO terms. I can't cover everything because it's just too big a game, but I think there'll be more than enough juicy goodness in there. You'll probably get my attention. The book as described at the top of the thread seems more "crunch" than "fluff" (or whatever the vernacular is), which means I'll probably pass but I'll be more than willing to consider it. I am pretty sure that anything you do will only improve the situation; I just wonder if it will be as "good" as the pre-CO material. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted October 20, 2009 Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 Re: Champions Background Information Judging by Steve's treatment of Monster Island, Dr. Destroyer, and Mechanon in the books - all of which have a CO presense or plans for such - I would say they are as good as the 5E supplements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PamelaIsley Posted October 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2009 Re: Champions Background Information The Champions Universe book, besides lacking the Champions themselves, was the book I wanted. People were right. Nothing against the genre book (I love Icicle for example), but there was more "useful" info in the Universe book. Millenium City is also a good book. So, right now, I'd say I liked the Villains book the best, followed by the Universe book, then Millenium City, the 2005 update, and finally the genre book. The book I feel like is missing is a version of the Villains book with all the superheroes collected, but as was mentioned earlier, that probably wouldn't sell that well to people actually playing the game. Question: What happened to Icicle that she didn't make the 2005 update book? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GestaltBennie Posted October 25, 2009 Report Share Posted October 25, 2009 Re: Champions Background Information Incidentally' date=' I think CO could have drawn the line at including HISS (sorry, Anaconda) tanks and Crimson Guardsmen for VIPER.[/quote'] Thanks for your feedback Pam. The Anaconda tanks were my invention and I can honestly say that, although I was a Joe fan when I was younger, I certainly wasn't thinking about HISS when I did them up. Anacondas are a big snake that crushes its prey and practically swallows an elephant whole. Hiss is a snake noise that often sounds silly. Though they employ the same motif, there's a big difference in the connotations evoked by the names, at least to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PamelaIsley Posted October 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2009 Re: Champions Background Information Thanks for your feedback Pam. The Anaconda tanks were my invention and I can honestly say that' date=' although I was a Joe fan when I was younger, I certainly wasn't thinking about HISS when I did them up. Anacondas are a big snake that crushes its prey and practically swallows an elephant whole. Hiss is a snake noise that often sounds silly. Though they employ the same motif, there's a big difference in the connotations evoked by the names, at least to me.[/quote'] Whether intentional or not, VIPER in CO screams COBRA. Their guns even make similar noises to the cartoon. Things like the Scarlet (rather than Crimson) Guard, the Cobra-Viper-like helmets, and the tanks with snake-themed names really reinforce this notion. I must admit, I was surprised they were so brazen when I first started playing in beta, but I had no familiarity with the the tabletop materials. Having read about VIPER in the Universe book, the 2005 update, and the Villains book, I see it being much less of a direct copy. VIPER is actually more interesting than COBRA (which isn't surprising, considering COBRA was created to amuse 10 year olds watching TV and teens reading comics). The game would have benefitted from a bit more discretion in terms of how it presented VIPER. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted October 25, 2009 Report Share Posted October 25, 2009 Re: Champions Background Information Glad to hear you found most of the info you were looking for, Pamela. Question: What happened to Icicle that she didn't make the 2005 update book? When the Champions genre book was published, Hero Games was under the impression that they owned the rights to Icicle, a character which appeared in earlier published Hero Games books. However, subsequently they were informed that the rights to Icicle actually belong to a comic publisher, so Hero replaced Icicle in later reprints with a very similar character called Snowblind using the same illustration. (I actually like that name better.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted October 25, 2009 Report Share Posted October 25, 2009 Re: Champions Background Information Whether intentional or not, VIPER in CO screams COBRA. Their guns even make similar noises to the cartoon. Things like the Scarlet (rather than Crimson) Guard, the Cobra-Viper-like helmets, and the tanks with snake-themed names really reinforce this notion. I must admit, I was surprised they were so brazen when I first started playing in beta, but I had no familiarity with the the tabletop materials. Having read about VIPER in the Universe book, the 2005 update, and the Villains book, I see it being much less of a direct copy. VIPER is actually more interesting than COBRA (which isn't surprising, considering COBRA was created to amuse 10 year olds watching TV and teens reading comics). The game would have benefitted from a bit more discretion in terms of how it presented VIPER. VIPER has a meaty source book of its own for the tabletop game. It's one of the oldest elements of the setting, and has evolved greatly over the decades from its admittedly more COBRA/HYDRA-like origins. Tabletop VIPER today is vast, diverse, many-layered, and just as likely to operate subtly behind the scenes as with overt force. An MMORPG, at least at this stage in its evolution, concentrates on the more visual, action-oriented story elements. That's why us tabletop fans who enjoy roleplaying and layered plots continue to play them. Nonetheless, I sometimes get the impression that CO consciously shifts things toward what's more familiar to the general public, as opposed to us tabletop Champions fans. Perhaps broader recognition is equated with greater appeal; I can certainly see the merit in that argument from a marketing perspective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PamelaIsley Posted October 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2009 Re: Champions Background Information Glad to hear you found most of the info you were looking for, Pamela. When the Champions genre book was published, Hero Games was under the impression that they owned the rights to Icicle, a character which appeared in earlier published Hero Games books. However, subsequently they were informed that the rights to Icicle actually belong to a comic publisher, so Hero replaced Icicle in later reprints with a very similar character called Snowblind using the same illustration. (I actually like that name better.) Where does Snowblind appear? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Ops Posted October 25, 2009 Report Share Posted October 25, 2009 Re: Champions Background Information Where does Snowblind appear? Evil Unleashed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted October 25, 2009 Report Share Posted October 25, 2009 Re: Champions Background Information She also got a small upgrade/power bump to 350 Points. So it is an updated version of the Character as well as the name correction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PamelaIsley Posted October 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2009 Re: Champions Background Information How much of Evil Unleashed is reprinted in Conquerors, Killers and Crooks? The Amazon reviews are kind of contradictory on this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Ops Posted October 25, 2009 Report Share Posted October 25, 2009 Re: Champions Background Information How much of Evil Unleashed is reprinted in Conquerors, Killers and Crooks? The Amazon reviews are kind of contradictory on this point. Nothing. It is a collection of Characters that appeared elsewhere, some are completly new (seven or so.). (Be warned: Some are from Millenium City and Champions but not all.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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