Champions Background Information

[gojira]

Re: Champions Background Information

 

We're occasionally like that around here. Punch drunk on Hero.

 

Hey only two more posts and we get to see Pamela's rep power. Any bets what number it starts out at?

[Greywind]

Re: Champions Background Information

 

I don't quite understand your post really.

It doesn't matter where you get your ideas. The base rule-set you use defines the actual game you are playing.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Champions Background Information

 

It doesn't matter where you get your ideas. The base rule-set you use defines the actual game you are playing.

Yeah? And she prefers the MM rule set. What's your point?

[Greywind]

Re: Champions Background Information

 

Try reading. You might figure it out.

[Tasha]

Re: Champions Background Information

 

What's wrong with that?

 

I'm not going to use the Hero rules, but if I get enough into the setting I might convert the villains and heroes into M&M and run a game using M&M's rule set.

 

I doubt people here want to debate the merits of the two systems, but I can't imagine that it's just inconcievable that someone would prefer the Champions background to the Freedom City setting and the M&M rules to the Hero regime.

 

I'm not sure that anyone posting here uses the whole Champions Universe without changing it somewhat.

 

From my experiences in playing other systems, and then converting those campaigns to Hero. Your system choice does flavor the genre/campaign world somewhat. There tend to be little changes to the world's reality to reflect the way that the rules color PC generation, Combat and Skill use. ie Most Champions games have PC's with the ability to withstand small arms fire (ie bullets). In most Comics those kind of defenses are a bit more rare, since the heroes don't tend to face bullets and the writers can just say that the hero avoids said damage in some way. Heck in some systems Combat and skills are less detailed than in others (ie GURPS has a highly interlocking skill system, were hero's skills are more discrete or only interlock during certain uses)

 

So Hero system games will have a different feel than, Mutants and Masterminds, which feels different from GURPS supers, which feels different from Superworld etc.

 

I am glad that you are enjoying the campaign world. Perhaps someday we can entice you to try the system that spawned it too If not you are still very welcome to post here, and talk about the campaign world

 

PS I really don't know the Mutants and Masterminds system, it came out when I was going though D20 burnout so I never picked it up.

[Greywind]

Re: Champions Background Information

 

Hero is about the only game system I've never suffered burnout with.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Champions Background Information

 

Try reading. You might figure it out.

No need for snark. Someone else had to ask what you were talking about as well and while you clarified what you were trying to say I feel I'm still missing whatever your point is supposed to be in saying it. I read every recent post of yours twice before I asked you. You don't have to be condescending just because I don’t immediately follow your line of thought. Not everyone thinks exactly like you.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Champions Background Information

 

Greywind is saying that it's cool that one is using the CU, regardless of the system one is running it with.

[PamelaIsley]

Re: Champions Background Information

 

Greywind is saying that it's cool that one is using the CU' date=' regardless of the system one is running it with.[/quote']

 

Actually, I thought he was saying the opposite. I thought he was saying that you aren't really using Champions unless you're using the Hero rules.

 

My understanding is that Champions is a setting and Hero Games provides rules to run that setting.

 

If you used all the Champions characters and background info with M&M rules, you'd still be using the Champions setting, just not the hero rules.

 

I thought Greywind was saying if you aren't using the hero rules, then it's not really Champions, it's just M&M. Which is odd, because M&M is just a ruleset (I, for example, have always used converted DC characters for my M&M game), with a very barebones default setting that requires a separate book (Freedom City).

 

All that being said, converting these villains/heros into M&M would be a huge project and would be kind of hard to do. Many of the powers in Hero seem to be ultra-specific, while M&M prefers broad power structures with specific flavor descriptors.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Champions Background Information

 

Ah... well, yeah Champions isn't a game anymore. Hasn't been for 20 years. It's a genre, and Champions Universe is a setting.

 

As for what Gretwind was saying, hopefully he'll clarify since it seems to be getting interpreted two different ways. . . shrugs.

[Greywind]

Re: Champions Background Information

 

Yeah? And she prefers the MM rule set. What's your point?

 

No need for snark. Someone else had to ask what you were talking about as well and while you clarified what you were trying to say I feel I'm still missing whatever your point is supposed to be in saying it. I read every recent post of yours twice before I asked you. You don't have to be condescending just because I don’t immediately follow your line of thought. Not everyone thinks exactly like you.

Snark runs both ways...

 

Greywind is saying that it's cool that one is using the CU' date=' regardless of the system one is running it with.[/quote']...a bit of this...

 

Actually, I thought he was saying the opposite. I thought he was saying that you aren't really using Champions unless you're using the Hero rules.

 

My understanding is that Champions is a setting and Hero Games provides rules to run that setting.

 

If you used all the Champions characters and background info with M&M rules, you'd still be using the Champions setting, just not the hero rules.

 

I thought Greywind was saying if you aren't using the hero rules, then it's not really Champions, it's just M&M. Which is odd, because M&M is just a ruleset (I, for example, have always used converted DC characters for my M&M game), with a very barebones default setting that requires a separate book (Freedom City).

 

All that being said, converting these villains/heros into M&M would be a huge project and would be kind of hard to do. Many of the powers in Hero seem to be ultra-specific, while M&M prefers broad power structures with specific flavor descriptors.

...and a bit of this...

 

The game is defined, more or less, by the rule set, and not by the universe set.

 

The game you play is based more on the game mechanics, rather than world history. The flavor of the game you run is based on the world history and the characters therein.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Champions Background Information

 

Snark runs both ways...

You post three unclear posts in a row, which seem like they may or may not be basically saying "your doing it wrong" to someone using a different rule set than you do, and asking what your point is is snarky? Hardly.

...a bit of this...

 

...and a bit of this...

 

The game is defined, more or less, by the rule set, and not by the universe set.

 

The game you play is based more on the game mechanics, rather than world history. The flavor of the game you run is based on the world history and the characters therein.

Again, I understand what you are saying. I'm asking what your point is. My impression was (and it seems that PamelaIsley's impression was similar), that you were saying that if you're not using Hero you might as well not use Champion's material. Possibly even as far as saying that it is somehow incorrect to use another system with this setting, or possibly that setting is completely irrelevant. Rather than assume any of this, I asked you what your point was. Something you still don’t seem to be able to express clearly. As pointed out by Ghost-Angel, some people obviously interpreted your statements in a much more positive way. To me this says you were being unclear and I was not out of line to ask what your point was.

The game you play is based more on the game mechanics' date=' rather than world history. The flavor of the game you run is based on the world history and the characters therein.[/quote']

I understand this statement (I don’t necessarily agree with it, but I understand it). I guess what I’m trying to ask, (and sorry I can’t think of a gentler way to say it) is “so what?”. I’m missing the connection between this statement, and any of the conversations that have existed since the beginning of the thread. Is this just a random opinion you wanted to express? Does it have some bearing on how (you think) the source material is used? You say that playing Mutants and Masterminds while using the Champions material is an “oxymoron”. I still don’t know if you are saying that that is bad, good, or otherwise.

 

EDIT: I just want to add, I’m not trying to get you to drop the conversation, or even debate or contradict what you are saying. I’m just trying to understand why you are saying it. Maybe I’m dense, but it seems you are essentially saying “The game you use determines the game you play” which seems not only self-evident but a rather odd point to bring up. Like wise the “flavor” which is essentially background and tone being based on the “history” (read background) seems a fairly straight forward and self-evident point. What I’m trying to determine is what either of these statements (assuming I’m understanding you points correctly) have to do with mixing “flavor” from one place with “mechanics” of another, why you call doing so an “oxymoron”, and again, what’s the point, whether positive or negative?

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Champions Background Information

 

I've read posts to these boards from a number of gamers in our community who mine Champions Universe backgrounds and characters for their Mutants and Masterminds games, and vice versa. If that's oxymoronic, it's nonetheless fairly common.

 

Both game systems stress flexibility and customizability, and go into detail on how to use their mechanics to simulate the conventions of superhero comics, particularly four-color. The official worlds of both games draw heavily from the precedents of mainstream published comic universes. Given those factors, it would be surprising if there wasn't significant compatibility and interchangeability between them.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Champions Background Information

 

Actually, I thought he was saying the opposite. I thought he was saying that you aren't really using Champions unless you're using the Hero rules.

 

My understanding is that Champions is a setting and Hero Games provides rules to run that setting.

 

If you used all the Champions characters and background info with M&M rules, you'd still be using the Champions setting, just not the hero rules.

 

I thought Greywind was saying if you aren't using the hero rules, then it's not really Champions, it's just M&M. Which is odd, because M&M is just a ruleset (I, for example, have always used converted DC characters for my M&M game), with a very barebones default setting that requires a separate book (Freedom City).

 

All that being said, converting these villains/heros into M&M would be a huge project and would be kind of hard to do. Many of the powers in Hero seem to be ultra-specific, while M&M prefers broad power structures with specific flavor descriptors.

 

 

My perspective is a little skewed in that I used to game with many of the people who were involved in making Champions. (about thirty years ago)

 

When we said we were playing Champions, we never assumed that it was going to be using any of the published materials, but we always assumed that it was going to be using the published rules. (granted, back in the day, the only other published rules for superheroes were Superhero 2044, Villains and Vigilantes and SuperWorld, none of which hit the table very often.)

 

The standard for campaign games was that the GM would have his own setting with his own gallery of villains. Often published setting elements would be present (Turtle armor suits, Viper agents, Minutemen etc) but not in a starring role.

 

One shot games were more likely to use published villains. You'd see this at conventions fairly often. Even so, most of the more experienced GMs would have a binder full of villains of their own design.

 

YMMV

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Champions Background Information

 

My perspective is a little skewed in that I used to game with many of the people who were involved in making Champions. (about thirty years ago)

 

When we said we were playing Champions, we never assumed that it was going to be using any of the published materials, but we always assumed that it was going to be using the published rules. (granted, back in the day, the only other published rules for superheroes were Superhero 2044, Villains and Vigilantes and SuperWorld, none of which hit the table very often.)

 

The standard for campaign games was that the GM would have his own setting with his own gallery of villains. Often published setting elements would be present (Turtle armor suits, Viper agents, Minutemen etc) but not in a starring role.

 

One shot games were more likely to use published villains. You'd see this at conventions fairly often. Even so, most of the more experienced GMs would have a binder full of villains of their own design.

 

YMMV

 

Ah, now that's an illuminating way of looking at it. Champions was the original game using the first incarnation of the Hero System rules, long before there was any attempt at creating a coherent Champions Universe. At that time "playing Champions" meant using the rules for Champions, like playing Dungeons and Dragons meant using the D&D rules... or playing chess or poker means using the rules for those games.

 

With the evolution of HERO as a universal rule set, there's been increasing disconnect between the term "Champions" and the actual game mechanics. While many fans of the game who focus primarily on superhero roleplaying with HERO still call that Champions, those of us who use the system for other games tend to say that we're "playing HERO," as opposed to, say, playing GURPS, regardless of the genre.

 

As far as official Hero Games publications go, "Champions" refers to the subset of the rules and support books dealing with superhero gaming, kept for name recognition. Many elements of the official Champions Universe are statted using those rules, but the universe itself can be and has been described in great detail without referencing the HERO System at all. A GM experienced in another game system could translate a lot of CU material just from those descriptions. OTOH as Bryce points out above, there's no need to draw on published characters to use HERO mechanics -- the game encourages you to create your own stuff.

 

Complicating matters further is that there are now six incarnations of HERO applicable to superhero gaming, several of which are still widely used, plus the variant rules applied to specific genres like fantasy, pulp, or sci-fi before the system was unified; not to mention reams of house rules from individual GMs (not surprising since players are actively encouraged to tinker with the system to their satisfaction).

 

IOW what "playing Champions" means today is subject to interpretation.

[lemming]

Re: Champions Background Information

 

I always thought playing Champions, was playing a superhero game using Hero rules. Settings were something else. But then, I gamed with BNakagawa

[SvZurich]

Re: Champions Background Information

 

I remember seeing Champions ads in my comics in the 1980s but never got to so much as see it until 5E. My understanding was Champions is the superhero genre for HERO game rules, a guide for making your own superhero setting with examples. Champions Universe is the official background setting you can use to expand on the examples in Champions.

 

If you want to M&M, you can use Champions Universe material to fill out your own setting with conversion.

 

If you want to HERO, you can use Champions Universe material to fill out your own setting without conversion.

 

Champions itself is a good guidebook for making your own setting and could be used for M&M, but M&M should already have that information as it is a Superhero game only.

[PamelaIsley]

Re: Champions Background Information

 

M&M has easy to use rules and is D20. That's why I use it. The elegant appearance of the corebook, Ultimate Power, and Freedom City doesn't hurt (though anyone that games in Freedom City's setting is going to have to do a ton of work creating villains; there just aren't that many).

 

Champions Universe is vastly superior in terms of background material. That's why I'm tempted to try to use that all that flavor.

 

In the past, I've always used M&M with DC conversions of my own making.

 

This debate over semantics is a little odd, since Hero and Champions are used interchangeably to some degree.

 

The point is, I think, that you can use all of the Champions Universe material with almost any rule set, including M&M. It will take work to convert it.

 

But less work, I think, than learning an entire new rule system. Especially since all the background material is 5E and there is now a 6E that would require conversion anyway.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Champions Background Information

 

That's one thing you'll have to get used to about HERO players, Pamela -- many of us love to debate the fine points. Perhaps its all the detail possible in the game that draws people who enjoy discussing how many Player Characters can dance on the head of a pin.

[Greywind]

Re: Champions Background Information

 

...as many as want to...

 

The term which seems to have confused is "oxymoronic". Couldn't find a more appropriate term at the time. Right now, I just don't want to.

[PamelaIsley]

Re: Champions Background Information

 

I now own and have read the following:

 

Champions (2002)

Champions: News of the World (2005)

Champions Universe

Conquerors, Killers, and Crooks (the best book, if only it had Icicle in it)

Evil Unleashed

Millenium City

Villains, Vandals, and Vermin

 

Based on the list of Champions products at the Hero Games web page, I think I have all the villains books published for 5th Edition.

 

There don't appear to be any superhero compilation books.

 

I almost thought about considering getting the 6th Edition Hero games rules, but they seem to only be available directly from Hero games. I'm not sure how valuable they would be. If I'm going to convert a lot of Champions characters to another ruleset other than 5th Edition, it might as well be the system I already know.

 

Thanks everyone.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Champions Background Information

 

Champions World Wide covers both Villains and Heros, it has about a 50/50 split of both.

 

UNTIL: Defender's Of Freedom is a Good Guys Organization book and contains several Superhero write-ups, though it not a dedicated Hero book.

 

Arcane Adversaries is another Villains book, containing mystic villain style threats.

[PamelaIsley]

Re: Champions Background Information

 

I was looking at Arcane Adversaries. It seemed a bit specialized.

 

Also, call me Defender, because I'm wary of magic in superhero universes (even though I really like Witchcraft, I noticed she had a variable power; that seemed a bit Zatanna-ish for my tastes).

 

UNTIL doesn't interest me much because things like PRIMUS and UNTIL are too far removed from present "reality" to be believable to me.

 

I'll research Champions Worldwide. I'm very US-centric though.

[Tasha]

Re: Champions Background Information

 

I was looking at Arcane Adversaries. It seemed a bit specialized.

 

Also, call me Defender, because I'm wary of magic in superhero universes (even though I really like Witchcraft, I noticed she had a variable power; that seemed a bit Zatanna-ish for my tastes).

 

UNTIL doesn't interest me much because things like PRIMUS and UNTIL are too far removed from present "reality" to be believable to me.

 

I'll research Champions Worldwide. I'm very US-centric though.

 

UNTIL doesn't seem that farfetched to me esp as I see them as a cross between Interpol and a UN sanctioned troops who are specialized in dealing with Superhuman threats

 

Having a group like UNTIL would prompt the Conservatives to create a US version of the group (To keep our Sovereignty and keep those foreigners out of the US). That force would be PRIMUS.

 

The groups and what they do strike me as being somewhat "realistic". What usually annoys my sense of reality is the Acronyms. I just hate those acronyms that are trying too hard and UNTIL and esp PRIMUS seem to be those. Though this doesn't annoy me enough to change them.

 

Again YMMV

[gojira]

Re: Champions Background Information

 

Also' date=' call me Defender, because I'm wary of magic in superhero universes (even though I really like Witchcraft, I noticed she had a variable power; that seemed a bit Zatanna-ish for my tastes).[/quote']

 

That VPP is only 30 points. About "half power" for most of the things that a regular superhero can do. It's also only possible for Witchcraft to change her VPP's powers only "at base," i.e., with access to her spell books.

 

Perhaps you understood these things already, I just thought I'd mention them in case you missed it. That VPP is not very Zatanna-ish to me, it's far limited to really simulate the sort of stuff that Zatanna can do. Rather, it's more of a demonstration how to make a character that is more flexible and can sometimes "conjure up" new powers and sfx when needed.

 

You might feel otherwise, which is ok. I just wanted to add a bit to the conversation.