"revised" hit location chart?

[Duke Bushido]

Sorry; I'm not suggesting one. But some years ago, I remember someone posting a really nice re-work of the hit location chart that had been reworked so that the tendency was for most hits to be center of mass (chest and trunk) instead of the "vitals."

 

Unfortunately, I neglected to save it. I've been tapped to run a play-by-post Sci-Fi campaign, and the group has indicated to me that they'd like to have the hit location chart handy (evidently damage multipliers speed up combat ).

 

The chart I'm thinking of was well done, and featured front / back, side, and event oblique and prone variants, as well as two variants for 1/2 cover (half walls and peering out from behind something).

 

Does anyone recall that post, or perhaps someone might know where I can find it other than this board? I've been culling through old posts for a couple of days, and so far I'm coming up empty.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: "revised" hit location chart?

 

The hit locations for chest and stomach are 10,11, and 12, the most frequently rolled numbers on 3d6. It's already weighted for hitting the chest and trunk (assuming trunk means stomach).

[Duke Bushido]

Re: "revised" hit location chart?

 

You're right of course. (and yes; trunk meaning that area between the ribs and the vitals ). But it's really shocking how often 13 comes up when you're using that, isn't it?

 

The one I'm thinking of assigned either a 3 or an 18 to the vitals. But the more I root around looking for it, the more I think it might have been on someone's web page for house rules. Worse yet, I notice that a lot of those seem to be disappearing! Victims of the economy, I suppose.

 

Thanks just the same, CC. I may have to rework one myself; I'm just really terrible at statistics and such. I recalled that chart set, and it became something of a Holy Grail.

[phookz]

Re: "revised" hit location chart?

 

I'm pretty sure the chart on Fitz's site (http://www.mojobob.com/roleplay/herosystem.html) is straight HERO, but it's handy and well done.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: "revised" hit location chart?

 

Here's a couple of old threads dealing with custom hit location rules:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1352347#post1352347

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=303639#post303639

[torchwolf]

Re: "revised" hit location chart?

 

This may not be what you're looking for, but anyway - it has other pretty numbers as well:

http://kuoi.com/~kamikaze/RPG/hero_rules.php

[ghost-angel]

Re: "revised" hit location chart?

 

Technically the Vitals - at least the more clearly defined 5E version - is the Vital Organs plus major arteries, most of which happen to be in the trunk. . .

 

Nothing annoys me more than "vitals = crotch" joke, honestly. I've never thought of it that way.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: "revised" hit location chart?

 

Ghost-Angel beat me to saying it. I couldn't use the chart on Fitz site for that very reason.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: "revised" hit location chart?

 

Technically the Vitals - at least the more clearly defined 5E version - is the Vital Organs plus major arteries, most of which happen to be in the trunk. . .

 

Nothing annoys me more than "vitals = crotch" joke, honestly. I've never thought of it that way.

 

It's not really a joke if you look at the way the hit locations are arranged; 3's at the top, work your way down to 10-11 chest, 12 stomach, 14-15 legs ... there's not a lot of question that location 13 has to be between the stomach and legs, which doesn't leave a lot of question that, at the very least, it *can* include the groin (though not necessarily).

[ghost-angel]

Re: "revised" hit location chart?

 

When I first encountered the Hit Location Chart I assumed Vitals was the line across your waste, just above the top of the pelvic bone - where if you cut a nice straight line your lower and upper intestines fall out and your are disemboweled. As the Stomach is up near your belly button.

 

"groin" never once entered into my mind, and I was unamused that is appeared to be the Hero System D- Joke. To say that least. I kept wondering how many Hero Gamers failed basic anatomy in 5th grade biology class.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: "revised" hit location chart?

 

I can understand how someone might think that "vitals" is a polite way of saying "groin". My problem is that people continue to act like it means that, not only when joking, but just in general, when the rules clearly state that that is in fact not what it means at all.

[JmOz]

Re: "revised" hit location chart?

 

I think the groin issue is a matter of amusment...

 

Thought pattern goes like this

 

Game effect wise Hit location 13 does alot of damage.

 

By the pattern of hit locations it is near the waist level

 

where would it be most amusing in the right general area

 

Everyone winces/laughs at a groin shot...America's funniest video's have been on 20 years and basicaly it is their bread and butter for pete's sake.

 

So we do it at the table for a laugh, then it just kind of defaults

 

 

 

 

In my game it is anywhere that does major damage, could be a gut shot, a heart shot, groin, etc... Any where that is going to make the scene better. And yes SOMETIMES the cheap humor of a groin shot works.

[prestidigitator]

Re: "revised" hit location chart?

 

I never assumed the locations had to be geometrically arranged. The arms and such make that a little screwy anyway. I assumed vitals meant kidneys, intestines, and loins, basicially. Things that can bleed a lot, aren't protected by the rib cage, and are pretty fatal if poked.

[Sean Waters]

Re: "revised" hit location chart?

 

We need a different way of doing hit locations. You can get hit in th eleg or the arm: it won't ill you, but you'll bleed out: the brachial or femoral artieries get torn open, goodnight sweetheart.

 

Some body bits have more 'vitals' than others but - with the possible exception of the hand and foot - the right hit ANYWHERE can kill: you can not simply abstract (roll 1d6: 1 or 2 you halve the result, 3-5 you use the result, 6 you double it) because then sectional armour is a problem. So. Easy.

 

2 steps:

 

1. Decide WHERE you are hit (by a random roll or aiming)

 

2. Decide what that means (by a random roll or REALLY CAREFUL aiming)

 

SO you are hit in the head? Almost certain to cause a major problem - but Napoleon survived a point blank head shot with nothing more than a lot of blood splatter and a splitting head ache.

 

I'm seeing some sort of grid: 3d6 (because we are a bit obsessive about 3d6 ) across the top and up the side: determines where (and, indeed IF you hit - you could get a hit into the right part of space and still miss)...interesting...

 

I don't use hit locations: philosphical differences - but if anyone is interested I'll put together a proposal.

[Sean Waters]

Re: "revised" hit location chart?

 

Of couse, without coming over all RoleMaster, different attack types have different effects too: however we could easily account for that in the build - fire and bullets work differently - we sort that with an advantage - or more likely - a limitation on the base power determines the variation in the damage. I'm the wrong person to put a number on that: random scares me. Shouldn't make that much difference to the Hit Location chart.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: "revised" hit location chart?

 

We need a different way of doing hit locations. You can get hit in the leg or the arm: it won't ill you' date=' but you'll bleed out: the brachial or femoral arteries get torn open, goodnight sweetheart.[/quote']

Can't this be modeled with the various injury/disabling and bleeding rules? All of those optional rules can make a game more lethal and increase drastic results (bleeding to death from a hand wound for example). Seems like an issue of using the appropriate combat rules to get the effect you want, not a problem with Hit Locations. YMMV obviously.

[Sean Waters]

Re: "revised" hit location chart?

 

Can't this be modeled with the various injury/disabling and bleeding rules? All of those optional rules can make a game more lethal and increase drastic results (bleeding to death from a hand wound for example). Seems like an issue of using the appropriate combat rules to get the effect you want, not a problem with Hit Locations. YMMV obviously.

 

 

I don't think so: well, we could change the bleeding rules to be BASED on hit location. No problem. If we don't do that though, we need to modify the hit location rules so that a hit has various effects, but there has to be SOME realtion between hit location and bleeding and not just between quantative damage and bleeding. My milage never varies: I always drive the same way

[prestidigitator]

Re: "revised" hit location chart?

 

Where you are hit affects how much damage you take. How much damage you take determines how much you Bleed. There's a connection right there.

[ghost-angel]

Re: "revised" hit location chart?

 

Wounding and Disabling IS based on where on the Hit Location you were hit.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: "revised" hit location chart?

 

Technically the Vitals - at least the more clearly defined 5E version - is the Vital Organs plus major arteries' date=' most of which happen to be in the trunk. . .[/quote']

 

The problem there (though I agree on the crotch thing; that's why I really want to find a chart with a considerably reduced chance of striking that location) is that there isn't a single organ below the diaphragm that you can't live without, including the entirety of your intestines. Let's not call out kidneys; they're location _is_ retroperitoneal, and they aren't _completely_ included under the ribs, but they are a _long_ way from "location 13," being squarely divided between the chest and the upper abdomen. They might as well be in the head, for their distal relation to this location as presented.

 

Some argument can be made for the arteries, but even then, the branchings of those arteries are well-protected in the pelvic structure, and a shot in the upper thigh is more likely to hit them than even a stab wound to location 13.

 

Given that there isn't _anything_ in location 13 that actually _is_ "vital," the joke sort of wrote itself umpteen years ago.

 

All I'm trying to do here is to make a preemptive strike against the penis jokes that are _invariably_ going to spring up from an abundance of hits to Location 13.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: "revised" hit location chart?

 

Oh, and thanks, guys, for making me think all anatomically. I think I'm going to write my own based on the Rule of Nines and weighted for a default aim at "high center," since most people will be aiming generally for the chest or whatever part you want to define as the "center of mass."

 

Thanks!

[ghost-angel]

Re: "revised" hit location chart?

 

You have a 9.7% chance of rolling a 13 on 3D6. Same chances of rolling an 8 (one of two Shoulder Location numbers).

 

I don't see that as "coming up too often" personally.

 

As for the jokes... you either get mature players are institute a penalty.

 

I suggest the following:

Player who makes the joke loses 2 Body, and the hit retroactively misses.

 

Every time.

 

Don't want to be so harsh? Just make the hit miss if the joke is made.

 

Also, make sure you describe a particularly nasty hit anywhere on the body to reinforce that it is a Vital location, not a crotch joke waiting to happen.

 

As for nothing vital in the location if you map it - yes, there's plenty vital between the stomach and thighs. Kidneys on the back side, for one, are extremely vital. Puncturing the intestines is a great way to get septic shock, fastest way actually. Especially the large intestines which are between the stomach and thighs.

 

Just because your liver, heart and lungs are above in the chest cavity doesn't mean there aren't other extremely important organs below the stomach.

[prestidigitator]

Re: "revised" hit location chart?

 

...there isn't a single organ below the diaphragm that you can't live without' date=' including the entirety of your intestines.[/quote']

 

Hmm. You're certainly not going to live for very long without the entirety of your intestines, at least not unless you had some very, very interesting medical treatment. I guess that could be considered a very severe Disablement rather than immediate death though. Heh.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: "revised" hit location chart?

 

 

Don't want to be so harsh? Just make the hit miss if the joke is made.

 

In the past, I've done things like "you roll ones for damage" out of annoyance. So with my "regular" group, it's something of a non-issue. This is a group of people, some of whom I know from the past, who have contacted me online. Rather than step into something awkward, I'd just as soon have it be an "unpossible," hence I expect I'll end up going with a Rule of Nines chart, simply to eliminate the _possibility_ of coming up "groin" _at all_, under any interpretation.

 

 

As for nothing vital in the location if you map it - yes, there's plenty vital between the stomach and thighs.

 

You know that I have great respect for your opinions; I've told you as much privately and I've made no secret of it publicly. I find your knowledge of the game to be both encyclopedic and nearly instantaneously recallable. Given the volume of knowledge and minutia, this is something of an unusual combination. Further, after having run some of your numbers years ago, I've never thought twice about accepting them as printed; it's plainly obvious that your ability to "math on the fly" far outstrips my own.

 

There aren't many fields with which I am extremely familiar, but anatomy-- in particular pathology and internal medicine, are fields that I have formal education in. I am not a doctor by _any_ means; any studies I've taken beyond Nursing have been taken more out of fascination and the hopes to one day get into forensic medicine.

 

I am _not_ trying to paint myself as an expert, ever. I am trying to give you my frame of reference so that we can more clearly understand each other.

 

The hit chart as presented (up to 5e; I own nothing newer, not even 5re) is titled with layman's terms as opposed to anatomic terms. That being the case, I have taken to assuming that "vitals" represents what have been traditionally referred to as vitals since Shakespeare: the mid and lower abdomen. Even today, in educated industrial nations, people will still visit their doctor, point directly at their navel, and complain of a stomach discomfort.

 

It doesn't help matters that for all the amounts of HERO material I own, I have never actually seen a mapped diagram of the hit locations. I don't even know that there is an official one. If there is, I would certainly like to know what I need to buy to get it, because that would clearly head off the issue I'm concerned about.

 

But I get off-track: Below the diaphragm, there really is nothing you can't live without. losing vessels equates to losing limbs, which can end your adventuring career in all but super and sci-fi games. Kidneys, as I stated earlier, are a grey area, but because of their particularly high location (one is halfway under your ribs; one just manages to get the apex under the ribs), I have never taken them to be in the "vitals." Again, and actual cannon diagram would certainly help to clear this up.

 

However:

 

You can live with as little as one fifth of your liver. Anything under 1/3 is not pleasant, but you can live while it regenerates, and if you live long enough, it may even get up to 1/3 its original size.

 

Septic shock is an astoundingly slow death, all things considered. Left untreated or undiagnosed, it can kill in days, but in an industrial nation, the biggest problem with sepsis isn't actually the sepsis itself. It's the aftercare. More people undergoing treatment for sepsis die of nosocomial infections than die of the sepsis itself. Commonly, extreme irrigation and removal of any damaged tissue are the treatment. Several feet of intestines. For patients with ailments like Crohn's Disease, sepsis is very nearly a fact of life. In cases of extreme trauma, the entire intestinal tract can be removed. Again, it ends an adventuring career, but in and of itself isn't life threatening anymore.

 

At one time, obviously, this was simply not the case, and a gut wound was a vital injury. The very threat of one kept gun fighters and even Roman soldiers from eating before going into battle. While the gut has remained named "the vitals," an injury there just isn't as vital as it was when the name was earned.

 

Just because your liver, heart and lungs are above in the chest cavity doesn't mean there aren't other extremely important organs below the stomach.

 

It does, mean just that, because you're heart, lungs, and liver are the only organs in that list that are one-hundred-percent important, and you really only "need" less than half of your liver. The others just make life much more convenient.

 

 

At any rate, I think I'm going to try sometime next weekend to take a stab at a new hit chart. Any idea where I can find a list of outcome probabilities on 3d6?

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: "revised" hit location chart?

 

I suggest the following:

Player who makes the joke loses 2 Body, and the hit retroactively misses.

 

Every time.

 

Don't want to be so harsh? Just make the hit miss if the joke is made.

 

Punishing the character for the actions of the player is extremely bad form. I would walk out of a game if the GM did something that asinine. The correct approach is to simply tell the players, 'It's not funny, it's getting annoying, it's negatively impacting my enjoyment of the game. Please stop.'