"revised" hit location chart?

[bigbywolfe]

Re: "revised" hit location chart?

 

As to the value of location 13.

Tons of official HG material over the course of 20+ years has said that location 13 is the lower abdomen including the groin.

And the last two versions of the rules (which I consider pretty "official") describe it as something other than that.

 

 

 

There are videos on the net of location 13 damage happening in real time. Watching a few of those will stifle any tendency to view it as humorous very quickly.

Worse advice ever. I'm sorry, but this is just plain goofy. In a culture where Funniest Home Videos has survived for more than a decade by showing people get hit in the nuts and people actually pay money to go see movies like Jackass in theater you somehow think watching some groin shots online are going to be seen as deadly serious and curb the sense of humor gained from such scenes?

[Sean Waters]

Re: "revised" hit location chart?

 

According to some female Black Belts I know...

 

Getting nailed in the groin hurts at least as much for women as for men, it's just that the "target area" is a bit harder to hit.

 

..............

 

 

Right.

[phookz]

Re: "revised" hit location chart?

 

I always thought 13 was the groin. I don't have access to my older books now, but I'm pretty sure there was evidence in them to suggest so. I do have access to the 6E PDF:

 

6E2 p109: “Vitals” is defned as any particularly delicate or vulnerable area on the body; this can include the groin, the heart, a large artery, or many other areas. Te GM should choose whatever efect is most appropriate for the attack and the situation.

Given that, it's perfectly reasonable to assume that at least sometimes 13 is the groin. I'll have to check my older books with sectional defenses, but I think some of them may have listed armor pieces for 13 that were specific to the groin, so I don't think the vitals = groin "issue" is really all that surprising.

 

I know from personal experience that having been shot there from hot-running paintball gun at close range it was WAY more painful than any other shot I'd ever had, so an increased STUN multiple for the groin seems perfectly reasonable to me.

[Ki-rin]

Re: "revised" hit location chart?

 

I'm sorry' date=' but this is just plain goofy. In a culture where Funniest Home Videos has survived for more than a decade by showing people get hit in the nuts and people actually pay money to go see movies like Jackass in theater you somehow think watching some groin shots online are going to be seen as deadly serious and curb the sense of humor gained from such scenes?[/quote']

Trust me, only a sadist is going to find anything funny in the more graphic videos of this type.

 

I once watched a fellow runner (=not= even on my team BTW) at a meet collapse on the track from having his Achille's tendon detach from his heel and have his calf muscle roll up his leg.

 

Everyone there saw every detail of that. No one thought it was even the slightest funny.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: "revised" hit location chart?

 

For anyone following along,

 

 

well, work hasn't begun in earnest yet; I'm sorry.

 

However, going through my own pet peeves which are eerily similar to G-A's and Tasha's (do Mac Goddesses ever divulge techno-how to plebes who just got sick of Vista and made the switch? ) with regard to "location 13 = groin," and my own pet peeve at the lack of distinction in "chest" and "vitals," I've already decided what I'm going to shoot for:

 

By the Rule of Nines, the torso of the human body-- everything from groin to collar bones, hip-to-hip and shoulder-to-shoulder is eighteen percent of the anterior and posterior surface areas.

 

What I think I'm going to do with the map is to use this as a single hit location-- sort of.

 

I believe I will map a more tightly-defined area _within_ that larger area-- say from the xyphoid down to the epigastric region, in a rough oval shape-- as Location 13. I find this to be much more in keeping with the idea of actually hitting something vital and instantly or nearly instantly fatal, and it still allows for a clearly defined "chest" area, which will be renamed "body" or "trunk" or something to indicate that it is the whole of the axial body as opposed to a horizontal section of it.

 

It also removes a great deal of the stimulus behind the groin jokes.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Actually, I may not even redo the chart. Simply assigning it this definition and mapping it as such _before_ the game should solve my problems nicely.

 

Thanks for the brain-jogging, folks! Keep it coming!

[bigbywolfe]

Re: "revised" hit location chart?

 

Trust me, only a sadist is going to find anything funny in the more graphic videos of this type.

 

I once watched a fellow runner (=not= even on my team BTW) at a meet collapse on the track from having his Achille's tendon detach from his heel and have his calf muscle roll up his leg.

 

Everyone there saw every detail of that. No one thought it was even the slightest funny.

That's a nice story...you should tell it at parties. However it has nothing to do with the conversation at hand. You may remember we were talking about Hit Location 13 and groin jokes.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: "revised" hit location chart?

 

According to some female Black Belts I know...

 

Getting nailed in the groin hurts at least as much for women as for men, it's just that the "target area" is a bit harder to hit.

 

 

I missed this the first time through---

 

I can't say, never having been able to strike a woman under _any_ circumstances (go ahead: call me a chauvinist if you must), but according to the gal I was dating before I met my wife (who was something of a scrapper), it _does_ seem to hurt just as much for a woman, and it's usually _easier_ to hit on a woman because they aren't as quick to defend there.

 

I can't vouch for the validity of either statement, but it was entertaining when she presented it.

[prestidigitator]

Re: "revised" hit location chart?

 

Err...if it's easy to hit and hurts just as much, why wouldn't a woman be naturally just as quick to defend there as a man? There's something just a bit self-contradictory there. While I've heard complaints about things like chafing due to bicycle seats and such, I've never seen a woman doubled up in pain for five minutes feeling like but being unable to puke her guts out. No. Sorry. Can't believe that one for a second. Men may not be able to experience the pain of giving birth, but women will never truly know the agony of our own little painful predicament.

[Ki-rin]

Re: "revised" hit location chart?

 

Err...if it's easy to hit and hurts just as much' date=' why wouldn't a woman be naturally just as quick to defend there as a man? There's something just a bit self-contradictory there. While I've heard complaints about things like chafing due to bicycle seats and such, I've never seen a woman doubled up in pain for five minutes feeling like but being unable to puke her guts out. No. Sorry. Can't believe that one for a second. Men may not be able to experience the pain of giving birth, but women will never truly know the agony of our own little painful predicament.[/quote']

I was a spectator and saw a Snap Front Kick (Thank God not at full power) during Randori ("freestyle") that just happened contact solidly in the region with the most nerve endings per unit area.

 

This was a 3-4th Dan BB; and she most certainly =was= "doubled up in pain for five minutes feeling like but being unable to puke her guts out".

 

...and other female BBs, both those present at the time and others elsewhere later, confirmed that such pain and reaction was typical of that particular critical hit.

 

Stop stereotyping or being a sexist and actually =talk= to a woman with the appropriate life experience if you want to do some credible fact checking.

[Ki-rin]

Re: "revised" hit location chart?

 

That's a nice story...you should tell it at parties. However it has nothing to do with the conversation at hand. You may remember we were talking about Hit Location 13 and groin jokes.

You made the statement that people seeing other people horribly injured or made to feel intense pain would not be taken seriously and would be treated as merely fodder for jokes.

 

I provided a refuting counter example.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: "revised" hit location chart?

 

Unless I totally missed what you're referring to it sounds as though you're comparing apples to bananas.

 

Guys associate a 'groin shot' with 'smashing apples'.

They don't usually complain about 'crushed banana's'.

 

I think the nerve cluster you're referring to for women is the equivalent to the 'tip of the banana' so to speak.

 

One is the body's warning that it's very fragile reproductive capacity is in extreme danger.

 

The other is the body's response to extreme pain to a sensory organ (but not necessarily danger to future reproductive capacity).

 

I don't think they are on quite the same level.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: "revised" hit location chart?

 

As to the value of location 13.

Tons of official HG material over the course of 20+ years has said that location 13 is the lower abdomen including the groin.

…

There are videos on the net of location 13 damage happening in real time. Watching a few of those will stifle any tendency to view it as humorous very quickly.

...and of course there are times when some humor, even of this type, is appropriate. People are there to have fun after all. It's the overdoing of it or inappropriate use of it that's a problem.

Worse advice ever. I'm sorry, but this is just plain goofy. In a culture where Funniest Home Videos has survived for more than a decade by showing people get hit in the nuts and people actually pay money to go see movies like Jackass in theater you somehow think watching some groin shots online are going to be seen as deadly serious and curb the sense of humor gained from such scenes?

Trust me, only a sadist is going to find anything funny in the more graphic videos of this type.

I once watched a fellow runner (=not= even on my team BTW) at a meet collapse on the track from having his Achille's tendon detach from his heel and have his calf muscle roll up his leg.

Everyone there saw every detail of that. No one thought it was even the slightest funny.

That's a nice story...you should tell it at parties. However it has nothing to do with the conversation at hand. You may remember we were talking about Hit Location 13 and groin jokes.

You made the statement that people seeing other people horribly injured or made to feel intense pain would not be taken seriously and would be treated as merely fodder for jokes.

I provided a refuting counter example.

 

Your first post specifically said “location 13 damage”. How does your Achilles tendon story apply? How? You even go on, in that same post, to refer to “humor of this type” (so you apparently find it humorous sometimes too) and it’s obvious you were referring exclusively to groin shots, not the other definition of 13 being heart/major arteries/et cetera.

I never said “seeing other people horribly injured” in general was funny. We were specifically talking about nut shots and you derailed into something else. Your little story is in mo way, shape, or form a counter example to anything discussed so far.

[Ki-rin]

Re: "revised" hit location chart?

 

Hyper-man,

 

We're talking about whether both sexes can feel similiar amounts of blindingly incapacitating pain from a hit to approximately the same region of the body.

 

It does not matter why.

 

All I'm saying is that the evidence on the matter says unequivocally "yes".

 

...and I'm NOT taking a stand one way or the other as to whether the pain involved is a warning about "the body's reproductive capacity is in extreme danger".

I am not a doctor.

But I can't see how damage to that area is good for the working parts of =either= sex.

[Ki-rin]

Re: "revised" hit location chart?

 

Your first post specifically said “location 13 damage”. How does your Achilles tendon story apply? How? You even go on, in that same post, to refer to “humor of this type” (so you apparently find it humorous sometimes too) and it’s obvious you were referring exclusively to groin shots, not the other definition of 13 being heart/major arteries/et cetera.

I never said “seeing other people horribly injured” in general was funny. We were specifically talking about nut shots and you derailed into something else. Your little story is in mo way, shape, or form a counter example to anything discussed so far.

IMHO, you are being overly focused on a specific, particularly since a subset of the posters to this thread have spent considerable type trying to refute the idea that location 13 is the groin rather than the more nebulous "vitals'.

 

But fine, I'll play by your rules.

Trust me when I say that on any occasion I've been present no one finds it even the -slightest- bit funny to watch anyone, man or women, clutching themselves moaning on the ground in dry heaves for 5-10 minutes after being nailed in the groin.

 

The initial hit only engenders humor when the consequences are omitted, ignored, or glossed over.

 

There isn't anything funny about a grovelling animal sounding like it's about to die from sheer pain. Unless you are a sadist.

[Bloodstone]

Re: "revised" hit location chart?

 

Gonna have to agree with Ki-rin on the effects a hit to the nether regions has on a woman. It's not something that every woman has experienced. In fact, I would dare to say the majority of them haven't. But it's still debilitating

 

The humor of the situation is all context based. If the brick in my group (a plucky little 16 year old girl) kicked Fenris Moonshadow (an ancient, extremely powerful 7' tall warewolf) in the nuts, I can assure you that table would explode into peals of laughter.... and lots of painful wincing...

[archermoo]

Re: "revised" hit location chart?

 

Gonna have to agree with Ki-rin on the effects a hit to the nether regions has on a woman. It's not something that every woman has experienced. In fact' date=' I would dare to say the majority of them haven't. But it's still debilitating [/quote']

 

I'll certainly agree that a hit to the nether regions can have a dramatic effect on a woman. However the ones that I've talked to about it (for the most part SCA heavy fighters) have been very specific that they didn't think that it was as debilitating to them as it was to a man. And were for the most part quite happy about that.

[ghost-angel]

Re: "revised" hit location chart?

 

I suppose it depends on what you're hit with... you can cause anyone pain with a solid hit to any body part, much less the groin.

 

I will note that no woman I have ever encountered has had the Grazing Effect... that one spot that even when grazed causes a dull throbbing pain to start up, that proceeds to climb into your lower back, and sit there, causing agony for hours.

 

It simply takes much Less force to cause a man to double over from a groin hit.

[Sean Waters]

Re: "revised" hit location chart?

 

OK, everyone line up: we need to do an experiment...

[Bloodstone]

Re: "revised" hit location chart?

 

I'll certainly agree that a hit to the nether regions can have a dramatic effect on a woman. However the ones that I've talked to about it (for the most part SCA heavy fighters) have been very specific that they didn't think that it was as debilitating to them as it was to a man. And were for the most part quite happy about that.

 

I've seen women buckled over for quite some time after it happens. I'd say women are probably a little less sensitive and it's just not as easy of a target to hit. But I'm not about to conduct a study to see who makes out better on average

 

To add a twist to it, many men also overreact, sometimes quite massively. It's a conditioned psychological response and is also an easy pass for a few extra moments of time out in many sporting events. I've played it up before myself

 

I think every guy has at some point had an unfortunate accident in this regard. Maybe not a full on kick in the groin or anything, but at some point it's pretty much inevitable that something grazes you the wrong way or you bump/fall into something while screwing around. Maybe somone throws something at you or the dog jumps into you. We pretty much all know the pain.

 

By contrast, I have had a women in class claim that a knee to the groin would not work on a female assailant. She had apparently never experienced such pain herself. Lucky her, eh?

[Bloodstone]

Re: "revised" hit location chart?

 

OK' date=' everyone line up: we need to do an experiment...[/quote']

 

Rochambeau!!! Being the decent guy I am, I'll allow you to be kicked first...

[archermoo]

Re: "revised" hit location chart?

 

I've seen women buckled over for quite some time after it happens. I'd say women are probably a little less sensitive and it's just not as easy of a target to hit. But I'm not about to conduct a study to see who makes out better on average

 

To add a twist to it, many men also overreact, sometimes quite massively. It's a conditioned psychological response and is also an easy pass for a few extra moments of time out in many sporting events. I've played it up before myself

 

I think every guy has at some point had an unfortunate accident in this regard. Maybe not a full on kick in the groin or anything, but at some point it's pretty much inevitable that something grazes you the wrong way or you bump/fall into something while screwing around. Maybe somone throws something at you or the dog jumps into you. We pretty much all know the pain.

 

Well, I have a 10 month old, so I get flailing limbs all the time. A thoroughly unscientific study shows that a baby limb to the groin seems to effect me more than my wife when it happens to her.

 

Though for my normal go to example of a groin shot was when I was fighting heavy in the SCA. Rising shot from a spear on a fluke got under my armored skirt and connected directly on my cup. Lifted me up on my toes. I don't think I actually passed out, but the world was certainly held at a distance for a few minutes. Though I didn't actually have to be carried off the field...

 

By contrast' date=' I have had a women in class claim that a knee to the groin would not work on a female assailant. She had apparently never experienced such pain herself. Lucky her, eh? [/quote']

 

No kidding, though I've known a number of people (both male and female) that would agree with her.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: "revised" hit location chart?

 

IMHO, you are being overly focused on a specific, particularly since a subset of the posters to this thread have spent considerable type trying to refute the idea that location 13 is the groin rather than the more nebulous "vitals'.

 

But fine, I'll play by your rules.

Trust me when I say that on any occasion I've been present no one finds it even the -slightest- bit funny to watch anyone, man or women, clutching themselves moaning on the ground in dry heaves for 5-10 minutes after being nailed in the groin.

 

The initial hit only engenders humor when the consequences are omitted, ignored, or glossed over.

 

There isn't anything funny about a grovelling animal sounding like it's about to die from sheer pain. Unless you are a sadist.

I'm actually one of the people saying that location 13 clearly isn't simply the groin. I'm agreeing with the definition presented in the rules. Now, tell me how the achilles tendon has anything to do with location 13. Even going by what the rules describe as location 13 I don't think your story applies. Also, while you are now claiming otherwise, your first post was pretty obviously talking about groin shots.

 

Prior to arguing with me you seemed to be in the 13=groin side of the discussion. Did I not understand your view before, or did you just change it because of the weird tendon example?

[Bloodstone]

Re: "revised" hit location chart?

 

I'm pretty sure the achilles tendon bit just an anecdote about a time when an injury wasn't deemed funny.

 

So not directly related to the discussion of hitting the 13 so much as a comment on peoples reaction to others pain and suffering.

[ghost-angel]

Re: "revised" hit location chart?

 

I'm pretty sure the achilles tendon bit just an anecdote about a time when an injury wasn't deemed funny.

 

So not directly related to the discussion of hitting the 13 so much as a comment on peoples reaction to others pain and suffering.

 

Seeing as the conversation focused on the humor people find in groin-shots... it was a complete non-sequitor.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: "revised" hit location chart?

 

Seeing as the conversation focused on the humor people find in groin-shots... it was a complete non-sequitor.

Thank You! Good to know I'm not completely wacko for thinking the same.