Oaf only to activate

[tesuji]

6e1 for characteristics gives an example power of steroid pills. they grant +10 str and +1 spd for 1 minute each charge. they get a lim of oaf -1.

 

apparently this is a big bottle for only four pills. :-)

 

now lets compare this to say the same effect granted by an oaf magic scabbard.

 

the normal oaf rules allow a power to be attacked in combat.

 

but you know the pills thing seem to be only attackable at the moment of activation.

 

after i take the pill the oaf thing doesn't matter, right? you as gm aint gonna allow them to reach inside me and grab the spd and str out of my bloodstream, though you might allow them to grab the scabbard depriving me of the char.

 

so here is my question - for things like potions and pills, where after started the power will run regardless of the focus issues - should there be a "focus only applies when first starting power" kind of thing, say halfing the lim, like is done with incantations, gestures, extra time etc for a power where the lim does not apply once the power is running?

[Naanomi]

Re: Oaf only to activate

 

Write it as triggered or delayed effect?

[Trebuchet]

Re: Oaf only to activate

 

I wouldn't allow the OAF at all. I'd give the Power the total Limitations appropriate for 4 Charges and however long each Charge lasts.

 

The "pills" are just an sfx.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Oaf only to activate

 

I wouldn't allow the OAF at all. I'd give the Power the total Limitations appropriate for 4 Charges and however long each Charge lasts.

 

The "pills" are just an sfx.

 

Well, a pill bottle could be an OAF if it can be grabbed off of a utility belt or something. If it can't be, it should be an IIF. If the bottle is grabbed, the character loses any unused charges until he takes it back or the charges renew the way they normally do.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Oaf only to activate

 

Technically, they're foci right up until the moment they are ingested, so if they're Obvious, they must be in a large sack hung around his neck or something....

 

Though you have a good point: once the pill is eaten, you can only attack the remaining pills. When all the pills are gone, there is no Focus, but the Power continues to operate.

 

Hmmm.....

 

perhaps using the Charges cost modifier to modify the value of OAF?

 

Well this could certainly get weird....

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Oaf only to activate

 

I don't have 6e yet so I'm only guessing at the complete build but I can see how it makes sense.

 

It's OAF when the character is about to take the pills. The pills could be hidden otherwise but just like drawing a weapon, it would normally take a half Phase action to pull out the pills and take one. Another character with a Held Action could attempt to knock them out of his hand. I am also assuming the Charges are Continuing so that Limitation's value has already been reduced appropriately.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Oaf only to activate

 

That's what I'm saying: The pills really don't qualify as foci because they can't be taken away once the Power is activated. They're just Charges. (Besides, what are the odds the PC will carry them all together in a nice, visible, easily taken pill bottle? He'll have them each individually stashed about his person.)

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Oaf only to activate

 

That's what I'm saying: The pills really don't qualify as foci because they can't be taken away once the Power is activated. They're just Charges. (Besides' date=' what are the odds the PC will carry them all together in a nice, visible, easily taken pill bottle? He'll have them each individually stashed about his person.)[/quote']

 

I think you misunderstood my last post.

 

The pills do qualify for the Focus Limitation.

 

They are just like Expendable Foci (normally used in Fantasy Hero to represent 'spell components') except that the process to obtain replacement foci is spelled out under the Charges Limitation.

[Beast]

Re: Oaf only to activate

 

for me being an OAF

means the bottle is seen and everybody knows what it is

and is easily grabbed

it also does not have a child safety cap

[ghost-angel]

Re: Oaf only to activate

 

I would personally build such things as OIF at best, or IFF. OAF seems a bit of a stretch. But I do think a Focus Limitation is in order as the pills can still be taken away in some manner - you don't have access to them when captured, might not have them on you at all times, or other interesting role-playing opportunities.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Oaf only to activate

 

OK. Magic wand.

 

Same power build: any problems?

 

The magic wand is OAF, I'm sure everyone will agree, at least unless we examine the minutiae...

 

You can tuck the wand inside your coat until you use it (so it is neither easily detected nor grabbed - much as you would with a pistol, and no one is going to argue that is not OAF, are they?) and you can have the wand taken away after using it without losing any ongoing effects, as those effects are not maintained by the user (I assume).

 

So, if the magic wand is OAF, the pills are too.

 

Of course I have issues with the whole 'focus' thing, but that has been aired elsewhere. As to the OP question, I seen no problem with these being OAF, without reducing the limitation, within the rules as they stand.

[tesuji]

Re: Oaf only to activate

 

OIF is half the value of oaf so i find it fine.

 

Samples...

 

20 ap of constant power with some number of continuing charges.

 

Spell: Requires incantations to activate -1/4 cost 16

spell: requires incantations throughout -1/2 cost 13

spell requires gestures to activate -1/4 cost 16

spell: requires gestures throughout -1/2 cost 13

spell: requires gestures and incantations to activate -1/2 cost 13

spell: requires incantations and gestures throughout -1 cost 10 cp

 

exactly the same kind of calculations for extra time and for concentration dcv penalties.

 

OAF: pills required to activate -1 per 6e1

OAF: force field belt -1 etc

 

either

a - both the pills and the velt can be removed in combat while the power is working and the constant power stops

b - removing either the belt or the pills can be taken while the power is running and the power remains in effect.

c - the pricing is inconsistent.

 

As a Gm trying to make these two play out even i would have to steal the pill bottle a lot more often than i steal the belt, since the belt is gonna be shot in combat ending the force field effect while i really cannot do that to the pills you just swallowed. So I CAn make them play even but its more of a case of i would rather cost them to match normal events rather than to have to work to make them balance out due to an iunconsistent pricing scheme.

 

it just seems like the pricing scheme of "twice the lim if constant power throughout" is so well established the oaf example in the core book seems glaringly off.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Oaf only to activate

 

When I first saw the thread title, I thought 'Crew Served, +1 crew (must have bad manners)'.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Oaf only to activate

 

Continuing charges works like 'uncontrolled': once activated you don't have to worry about it: it doesn't work like a force field based on Resistant protection and housed in a OAF belt: that DOES require ongoing maintenance (unless built uncontrolled) and so would stop if the belt is snatched away. It is the same, more or less, as if you'd built the pills with Aid (STR and SPD). Once activated, the ongoing effects remain until the specified time or event. I have some pretty major issues with charges as well, but this is neither the time nor the place.

[tesuji]

Re: Oaf only to activate

 

Continuing charges works like 'uncontrolled': once activated you don't have to worry about it: it doesn't work like a force field based on Resistant protection and housed in a OAF belt: that DOES require ongoing maintenance (unless built uncontrolled) and so would stop if the belt is snatched away. It is the same' date=' more or less, as if you'd built the pills with Aid (STR and SPD). Once activated, the ongoing effects remain until the specified time or event. I have some pretty major issues with charges as well, but this is neither the time nor the place.[/quote']

 

sean what you are saying doesn't make sense.

 

why would

 

+10 str +10 speed (char bought as constant powers)

oaf pills 4 charges of 1 turn each

cost 8

 

and

 

force field belt 20 def 10/10

oaf shield belt 4 charges of 1 turn each

cost 8

 

behave differently as far as whether removing the oaf once activated stops the power?

 

or are you saying the force field belt being ripped off me leaves the force field intact and still running?

 

hmmm.. reading continuing charges again, you may be right.

 

of course what the "reasonably common way to turn off the continuing charge" is for the pills i dont know

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Oaf only to activate

 

sean what you are saying doesn't make sense.

 

why would

 

+10 str +10 speed (char bought as constant powers)

oaf pills 4 charges of 1 turn each

cost 8

 

and

 

force field belt 20 def 10/10

oaf shield belt 4 charges of 1 turn each

cost 8

 

behave differently as far as whether removing the oaf once activated stops the power?

 

or are you saying the force field belt being ripped off me leaves the force field intact and still running?

 

hmmm.. reading continuing charges again, you may be right.

 

of course what the "reasonably common way to turn off the continuing charge" is for the pills i dont know

 

Under the rules for Focus it also states that any focus that provides a power based defense automatically gets to use that defense as well. In the case of a 'shield belt' that means that if you remove the belt you remove the defense from the former wearer.

 

re: common way to turn off pills

Maybe another drug interaction (caffeine, nicotine, alcohol, etc..).

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Oaf only to activate

 

Sounds like the -1/4 version of Restrainable to me.

[tesuji]

Re: Oaf only to activate

 

Under the rules for Focus it also states that any focus that provides a power based defense automatically gets to use that defense as well. In the case of a 'shield belt' that means that if you remove the belt you remove the defense from the former wearer.

 

 

i am not sure i am following you here.

 

normally removing a focus removes a constant power.

 

but it seems like a continuing charge trumps the usual cases where a constant power shuts off.

 

jet pack destroyed? no problem - it was a continuing charge and i got 55 minutes left.

 

or are you suggesting that focus lim rules trump continuing charge rules?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Oaf only to activate

 

...

 

or are you suggesting that focus lim rules trump continuing charge rules?

 

Well, the alternative is just the opposite.

The continuing charge rules would be trumping the foci rules.

The former makes a lot more sense than the latter (to me at least).

[prestidigitator]

Re: Oaf only to activate

 

I'd allow the OAF, but impose other minor restrictions. For example, the power could not be turned off voluntarily by the character before it naturally expires. That may not be a big deal most of the time unless there's some kind of continuing Side Effects on the power, but might occasionally crop up. For example, if it is a "magic" pill/potion/whatever, then others could detect that some kind of magic is in use and affecting the character, and some forms of trap/Trigger could be set off based on that. If it is a normal drug, the character would show up as intoxicated/under-the-influence. Little things that make that Limitation cost break worth it in the long run even though the power cannot always be deactivated in the middle of use.

[tesuji]

Re: Oaf only to activate

 

Well, the alternative is just the opposite.

The continuing charge rules would be trumping the foci rules.

The former makes a lot more sense than the latter (to me at least).

 

barring specific rules to the contrary or a compelling reason to do otherwise i would likely rule the bigger lim trumps the less value lim as a rule of thumb

 

so in this case, oaf trumps charges.

 

which brings me back to losing focus in combat doesn't stop power and so, should focus be reduced.

[tesuji]

Re: Oaf only to activate

 

I'd allow the OAF' date=' but impose other minor restrictions. For example, the power could not be turned off voluntarily by the character before it naturally expires. That may not be a big deal most of the time unless there's some kind of continuing Side Effects on the power, but might occasionally crop up. For example, if it is a "magic" pill/potion/whatever, then others could detect that some kind of magic is in use and affecting the character, and some forms of trap/Trigger could be set off based on that. If it is a normal drug, the character would show up as intoxicated/under-the-influence. Little things that make that Limitation cost break worth it in the long run even though the power cannot always be deactivated in the middle of use.[/quote']

 

none of these have to do with focus - so inessense what you are doing is lowering the focus lim but letting him take other lims to buy up the dif.

 

its like saying

 

"take the focus at 1/2 not 1 but then buy extra time to represent it take a turn for the pills to take effect" and letting him take -1/2 or whatever the turn delay is.

 

which is a perfectly reasonable response to "cut the focus in half" btw.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Oaf only to activate

 

barring specific rules to the contrary or a compelling reason to do otherwise i would likely rule the bigger lim trumps the less value lim as a rule of thumb

 

so in this case, oaf trumps charges.

 

which brings me back to losing focus in combat doesn't stop power and so, should focus be reduced.

 

I disagree with this because if the character loses the focus they lose the ability to use any additional charges in the future. The utility of the Charge itself is already figured into that Limitation (or Advantage depending on its duration).

 

It's not that different than a Multipower or VPP that contain slot(s) with the Uncontrolled Advantage.

 

From 5er, page 272:

 

...if an Uncontrolled power is bought as a Multipower or VPP slot and the character switches the Framework to a different slot, the Uncontrolled power does not turn off ; it continues to function until it uses up its END pool.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Oaf only to activate

 

sean what you are saying doesn't make sense.

 

why would

 

+10 str +10 speed (char bought as constant powers)

oaf pills 4 charges of 1 turn each

cost 8

 

and

 

force field belt 20 def 10/10

oaf shield belt 4 charges of 1 turn each

cost 8

 

behave differently as far as whether removing the oaf once activated stops the power?

 

or are you saying the force field belt being ripped off me leaves the force field intact and still running?

 

hmmm.. reading continuing charges again, you may be right.

 

of course what the "reasonably common way to turn off the continuing charge" is for the pills i dont know

 

I'm saying that if you built the force field as a continuing charge then it would continue to protect you even if the force field belt were removed.

 

I hadn't been thinking about building the force field with continuing charges, but if you do, it works exactly the same way. That's my take on it anyway.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Oaf only to activate

 

Question: if the power were built this way:

 

3d6+1 Aid to STR and SPD (Standard Effect): OAF Pills (4 charges)

 

Would anyone have a problem with either:

 

1. The effect continuing even if the rest of the pills (and bottle) were snatched away?

 

2. The OAF limitation at -1?