Speeding up combat "Restrict SPDs" is Dead Wrong

[casualplayer]

Re: Speeding up combat "Restrict SPDs" is Dead Wrong

 

The best way to speed up combat is to not bog it down with asking redundant questions. A simple DEX/SPD chart in the hands of the GM instead of a constant call for "whose action is it?" speeds things up immensely.

 

SPD is the number of times per Turn you have to feed your Constant and Continuous powers and the distance between the yummy free post-12 REC, if you wanted to look at SPD slightly differently.

 

Most published characters can go full-bore for about 2 Turns before they are sucking wind from END problems and are best just Dodged then beaten to a pulp. I'll have to see if 6th adds any wrinkles to this strategy, especially the addition of Damage Negation.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Speeding up combat "Restrict SPDs" is Dead Wrong

 

Most published characters can go full-bore for about 2 Turns before they are sucking wind from END problems and are best just Dodged then beaten to a pulp. I'll have to see if 6th adds any wrinkles to this strategy, especially the addition of Damage Negation.

This implies that you can successfully dodge any and all damage for 2 full turns and AoE, Explosion, and other factors won't be involved. Plus it sounds like an extremely boring play-style, but that's my opinion;).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Speeding up combat "Restrict SPDs" is Dead Wrong

 

This implies that you can successfully dodge any and all damage for 2 full turns and AoE' date=' Explosion, and other factors won't be involved. Plus it sounds like an extremely boring play-style, but that's my opinion;).[/quote']

 

It might be boring but it is a valid fighting style.

 

The "Rumble in the Jungle" fight between Ali and Foreman hinged on a similar tactic. Call it "END management" on the part of Ali to Block and Dodge most of Foreman's punches until Foreman had "punched himself out".

 

The classic/hated fight between Spider-Man and Firelord is another similar example.

 

This is one of those cases where some fights in HERO might benefit from a more loose style like that of the Amber Diceless system for chase scenes and other long skirmish/engagements.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Speeding up combat "Restrict SPDs" is Dead Wrong

 

I'm not saying it's not legitimate, but the implications seemed to be, "this is how to defeat any/all pre-written Champions villains".

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Speeding up combat "Restrict SPDs" is Dead Wrong

 

I'm not saying it's not legitimate' date=' but the implications seemed to be, "this is how to defeat any/all pre-written Champions villains".[/quote']

 

Well, I look at it as more of an example of how most of the published characters (especially the early ones) were focused more on updating earlier versions of the characters (4th to 5th) or providing basic examples of how-to than they were on being designed for potentially long combats. But I've always viewed CKC (Conquerers Killers & Crooks) to be as good a character creation starting point tool as any of the USPD's. It is worth noting that several characters are given significantly improved writeups (that usually take END into account) in the Ultimate series (Speedster, Brick, etc...).

[Tasha]

Re: Speeding up combat "Restrict SPDs" is Dead Wrong

 

I wasn't talking about it becoming more effective' date=' but about it becoming more effective vs. high-Speed characters. When your Speed (and/or the average Speed) is 3, a 6 Segment Flash can be painful. When your Speed (and/or the average Speed) is 8, a 6 Segment Flash is going to be absolutely devastating.[/quote']

 

Try being a speed 4 and having a 6 Phase flash. Talk about being taken out of a battle. A 6 segment flash is only 1/2 a turn no matter how fast the character. Flashes based on Phases could take characters out for over a turn. that's what made them Over powered.

 

Yeah, keeping the speeds to a smaller range can speed the game up. Though getting players into good habits is an even better thing. Getting players used to deciding on what they are doing BEFORE their phase is golden.

 

Tasha

[Hierax]

Re: Speeding up combat "Restrict SPDs" is Dead Wrong

 

I'm on the higher is better side of things:

 

With a smaller range of SPD it is better to have Higher SPDs to add more granularity and less leaps of power because each increment of +1 doesn't make as much of a difference -- e.g., SPD 2 + 1 = 3 = 150%, 2 + 2 = 200% but SPD 4 + 1 = 125%, 4+2 = 150%.

 

The lower the SPDs you use the greater the effect of any differentiation.

 

Using Highers SPDs you can let one character be "faster" than another character without as much of a downtime difference between the players.

 

Plus less Post Segment 12's = less recoveries = quicker take downs.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Speeding up combat "Restrict SPDs" is Dead Wrong

 

There is far less difference between SPD 7 and SPD 8 than between SPD 3 and SPD 4, as Heirax says, although I may differ in my conclusions: lower speeds make increments more distinctive and so the character more distinctive. I'm generally in favour of keeping SPD at 4 for all characters UNLESS the SPD is bought with limitations (only for dodging, for example) or as a specific schtick (the Speedster type, for example) rather than as simply a way to make characters more effective.

 

Veering off somewhat, if you actually want to speed up combat, get rid of free PS12 recoveries.

[jtelson]

Re: Speeding up combat "Restrict SPDs" is Dead Wrong

 

Anecdotally; By coincidence all of the PC's in my Heracle's Children campaign had a 6 speed. The combats were the smoothest and quickest our group has ever had - and it was obvious from early on to everyone that that was the case. I would not have thought it would have made that much difference but it did.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Speeding up combat "Restrict SPDs" is Dead Wrong

 

I wasn't talking about it becoming more effective' date=' but about it becoming more effective vs. high-Speed characters. When your Speed (and/or the average Speed) is 3, a 6 Segment Flash can be painful. When your Speed (and/or the average Speed) is 8, a 6 Segment Flash is going to be absolutely devastating.[/quote']Why? The SPD 8 character loses exactly the same percentage of Phases blinded as does the SPD 3 character. I don't see that as being more devastating; I see that as parity.

 

As an aside, even Flash- (or Darkness-) blinded characters haven't "lost" their Phases. They may be less effective while they can't see, but they are emphatically not helpless. Our team's MA Cloud Dragon was Flashed and while blind he located an opponent by a hearing PER roll, put a Choke Hold on him, and took the bad guy down after several Phases - all while entirely blind. And no, Cloud Dragon doesn't have any funky senses except +3 to his Sight PER - in fact he takes 2X Effect from Flash Attacks.

 

Losing more Phases due to being Flashed is annoying, but I suspect that's mostly for the player.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Speeding up combat "Restrict SPDs" is Dead Wrong

 

Why? The SPD 8 character loses exactly the same percentage of Phases blinded as does the SPD 3 character. I don't see that as being more devastating; I see that as parity.

 

...........

 

 

True, but....a 3 phase flash might make a SPD 8 character lose effectiveness for up to 3 phases (depending on circumstances...and assuming the character was holding when it hit) whereas a 3 SPD character might not lose any effectiveness (assuming he'd aborted the phase before he could have acted and was flashed).

 

I do take your point though - flash is not a killer, and you can work around it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Speeding up combat "Restrict SPDs" is Dead Wrong

 

True' date=' but....a 3 phase flash might make a SPD 8 character lose effectiveness for up to 3 phases (depending on circumstances...and assuming the character was holding when it hit) whereas a 3 SPD character might not lose any effectiveness (assuming he'd aborted the phase before he could have acted and was flashed).[/quote']

 

I assume you are referring to a 6 segment flash, versus a 3 phase flash. Under the old rules, a 3 phase flash meant the 3 SPD character was challenged for a turn while the 8 SPD character was challenged for less than half a turn. With a per segment flash (now 6 segments), both are challenged for half a turn.

 

If I were to agree with the argument that changing flash to segments from phases penalizes a high SPD, I'd also have to argue that Drains and other adjustment powers should recover on an "every X phase" basis, rather than "every 12 seconds", as a Drain, or an Aid, on a high SPD character lasts way more phases than used against a low SPD character. Even a damage-causing attack, or END-using power, "penalizes" the high SPD character - he has to get through more phases, remaining down END and STUN, before he gets a recovery.

[casualplayer]

Re: Speeding up combat "Restrict SPDs" is Dead Wrong

 

I'm not saying it's not legitimate' date=' but the implications seemed to be, "this is how to defeat any/all pre-written Champions villains".[/quote']

 

Nope, not all of them. Most of the bricks can't be taken out easily this way. Mostly any of the characters that have to feed END constantly to their movement, protection and attacks are vulnerable to this. Look at the genre source material; generally it's "harass, taunt, harass, don't let the enemy catch a breath or take a REC, set up the powerhouse for the big shot." It's the best reason to be on a team. Fatigue til the FF drops then POW!

 

There are lots of comics characters that their main purpose is to draw the enemy fire but not get hit.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Speeding up combat "Restrict SPDs" is Dead Wrong

 

I assume you are referring to a 6 segment flash, versus a 3 phase flash. Under the old rules, a 3 phase flash meant the 3 SPD character was challenged for a turn while the 8 SPD character was challenged for less than half a turn. With a per segment flash (now 6 segments), both are challenged for half a turn.

 

If I were to agree with the argument that changing flash to segments from phases penalizes a high SPD, I'd also have to argue that Drains and other adjustment powers should recover on an "every X phase" basis, rather than "every 12 seconds", as a Drain, or an Aid, on a high SPD character lasts way more phases than used against a low SPD character. Even a damage-causing attack, or END-using power, "penalizes" the high SPD character - he has to get through more phases, remaining down END and STUN, before he gets a recovery.

 

 

I meant '3 segment' not 3 phase. Sorry.

[tesuji]

Re: Speeding up combat "Restrict SPDs" is Dead Wrong

 

I think it's important to note that 'Speeding Up Combat' does not mean 'Takes Less Phases/Turns' - which is I believe how the OP interpreted it.

 

i read "speeding up combat" to mean "takes less time real world to resolve the fight" and thats what i think the op meant.

 

combats typically resolve when one sid or the other flees or is defeated and loss of stun is a critical element in that usually.

 

the more free non-action recoveries one gets the longer it takes to resolve that loss of stun or have it reach critical.

 

everyone gets a free recovery at eot.

 

if during each turn they lose 45 stun then they will fall faster than if they lose 15 stun per turn.

 

so lowering speeds will cause more free recoveries vs loss of stun unless those speed points are allowed to increase damage in some way.

 

it is not uncommon for some games cap damage in some way usually ata level most character can reach.

 

so i seee the op point.

 

however resticting speeds to ONE SPEED, everyone gets an action, effectively doing away with the speed chart, does tend to speed things up in my experience.

 

i played in a game once where you were expected to know your action immediately when your time came. if you didn;t immediately announce "i am doing..." the gm started ticing down 1-2-3... and those were segment delays as you stopping to think was your character stopping to think. if he counted so far down anothr character's tic came up, they went and then he came back to you.

 

that not only sped up combat, it kept people paying attention on their "off turns" figuring out what they wanted to do.

 

it worked well for that group.