Speeding up combat "Restrict SPDs" is Dead Wrong

[Panpiper]

In volume 2 of the 6th Ed. Rulebook, on page 53 there is advice on how to speed up combat. And the advice could not possibly be more wrong.

 

"1. Restrict SPDs: The more Actions the participants can take, the longer combats last. Limiting characters to relatively low SPDs (such as a maximum of 4 or 5) can help to speed combats up some."

 

A villain has a certain amount of stun and a certain amount of defense. A given character (or set of them) will need to hit that villain with their attacks X number of times on average in order to do enough damage to bring the villain down. Reducing the speed of the characters does absolutely nothing to reduce X, the number of attacks it takes to bring the villain down. Players still have to play the exact same number of action phases in order to get in X number of attacks.

 

The effect of reducing speed is quite the contrary of what the book says in fact, because if the reduced speed means that the players cannot do enough attacks during the turn, the villain might well get a post segment twelve recovery, meaning it will take X attacks PLUS extra attacks to reduce what the villain gained during the post segment twelve recovery.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Speeding up combat "Restrict SPDs" is Dead Wrong

 

You're looking at it from the wrong angle... reducing Speeds across the boards put everyone closer together, making any one person wait less time for their action, increasing the chances they'll pay closer attention to what's going on.

 

How many times has a low speed person stopped paying attention waiting for higher speed people to take their turns - IME moderately often.

 

I have played games where Speed was restricted to a very tight group (3-4) and combat has been considerably faster than when there's a wide spdread (4-9).

 

But then, this is only a problem if combat isn't moving smoothly already - I have played in games where 5 PCs vs Hoard Of 30 NPCs took less than 45 minutes with Speeds from 5 to 10 and a DEX range of 15 to 35. So combat speed is more than just adjusting a Characterisitc, i.e. take the advice with a grain of salt as it may not pertain to everyone equally.

[The Main Man]

Re: Speeding up combat "Restrict SPDs" is Dead Wrong

 

In volume 2 of the 6th Ed. Rulebook, on page 53 there is advice on how to speed up combat. And the advice could not possibly be more wrong.

 

"1. Restrict SPDs: The more Actions the participants can take, the longer combats last. Limiting characters to relatively low SPDs (such as a maximum of 4 or 5) can help to speed combats up some."

 

A villain has a certain amount of stun and a certain amount of defense. A given character (or set of them) will need to hit that villain with their attacks X number of times on average in order to do enough damage to bring the villain down. Reducing the speed of the characters does absolutely nothing to reduce X, the number of attacks it takes to bring the villain down. Players still have to play the exact same number of action phases in order to get in X number of attacks.

 

The effect of reducing speed is quite the contrary of what the book says in fact, because if the reduced speed means that the players cannot do enough attacks during the turn, the villain might well get a post segment twelve recovery, meaning it will take X attacks PLUS extra attacks to reduce what the villain gained during the post segment twelve recovery.

 

It's a psychological matter.

 

Try playing out the same combat scenario assuming, say, one situation with all 2 SPD's, one with all 4 SPD's, and then one with all 6 SPD's.

 

Another factor to consider is that PC's with higher SPD's get to go more often, which means that they have/get to make more decisions than others, which can slow things down even more.

[The Main Man]

Re: Speeding up combat "Restrict SPDs" is Dead Wrong

 

ghost-angel beat me to it.

 

See what happens when your DEX is lower?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Speeding up combat "Restrict SPDs" is Dead Wrong

 

And there is another angle to consider:

 

Points spent on the ability to take more actions in a given period of time (ie; SPEED) are points not spent on abilities that enhance the effectiveness of those actions (ie; other Characteristics, Skills, Talents & Powers).

[Markdoc]

Re: Speeding up combat "Restrict SPDs" is Dead Wrong

 

And there is another angle to consider:

 

Points spent on the ability to take more actions in a given period of time (ie; SPEED) are points not spent on abilities that enhance the effectiveness of those actions (ie; other Characteristics, Skills, Talents & Powers).

 

"SPD1? But everybody else in the game is SPD5 or higher. How are you going to compete?"

 

"Ah, I'm just buying a really big 1 use AoE killing attack with Trigger (when struck) and personal immmunity"

 

That should speed up combat!

 

cheers, Mark

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Speeding up combat "Restrict SPDs" is Dead Wrong

 

Depending on the genre being played, there are other combat actions possible that don't involve doing direct damage to a target: restraining them with Entangle, blinding them with Flash, using a Mental Power on them, making a Presence Attack, even just Grabbing and immobilising them.

 

And that highlights how many tactical choices a HERO player may find himself with beyond just hitting an opponent. As others on this thread have alluded to, players use up time to decide what to do, and the more choices they have the more they tend to vacillate.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Speeding up combat "Restrict SPDs" is Dead Wrong

 

The effect of reducing speed is quite the contrary of what the book says in fact' date=' because if the reduced speed means that the players cannot do enough attacks during the turn, the villain might well get a post segment twelve recovery, meaning it will take X attacks PLUS extra attacks to reduce what the villain gained during the post segment twelve recovery.[/quote']

 

There is a qualitative difference between "speeding up the resolution of combat" and "speeding up the course of combat." As my colleagues have implied, one of the greatest boredom-inducing possibilities in HERO combat is characters with lower SPD waiting for their turn to act, while their Speedier comrades get in all the good shots. IME players are less concerned with how long it takes a villain to fall, than that they all get an equal opportunity to do something cool and exciting to contribute to that fall.

[Karmakaze]

Re: Speeding up combat "Restrict SPDs" is Dead Wrong

 

One of the techniques that turns up at convention games is scrapping the SPD chart and just going around the table clockwise. That's sort of the ultimate in compressing SPDs and it does, in fact, speed up combat. You lose some granularity as a price of that, of course.

 

Most of my convention pre-gens are SPD 3 and 4, precisely to reduce complexity. I try to have it be about the same of each. I'll sometimes scrap the DEX portion of combat order and call 3's clockwise and 4's clockwise on the appropriate phases. I don't, myself, scrap SPD entirely, but I've seen it done without harming enjoyment of the game.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Speeding up combat "Restrict SPDs" is Dead Wrong

 

I think it's important to note that 'Speeding Up Combat' does not mean 'Takes Less Phases/Turns' - which is I believe how the OP interpreted it.

[Ice9]

Re: Speeding up combat "Restrict SPDs" is Dead Wrong

 

Technically it's the tighter SPD grouping that speed up combat, not the lower SPDs in general - I would expect similar results if everyone had a 6-8 SPD or a 3-4 SPD. However, if you're giving everyone a similar SPD anyway, why make them spend tons of points on it? Because of that, I think reducing the overall SPD makes sense.

 

But really, what you want to avoid are PCs with 3 and 9 SPD in the same party, unless the 3 SPD guy really doesn't care about combat. It's not just combat effectiveness, a lower SPD means you actually get to play less.

[Panpiper]

Re: Speeding up combat "Restrict SPDs" is Dead Wrong

 

I think it's important to note that 'Speeding Up Combat' does not mean 'Takes Less Phases/Turns' - which is I believe how the OP interpreted it.

Ok, that makes a lot of sense. I truly did not read it that way. But it is true, if someone with a low speed is getting bored and tuning out, such that when it is their turn they need to be brought back up to speed, then yes, eliminating speed might help. Honestly though, if someone has tuned out because a couple other people 'extra' gamed a phase, I strongly suspect they would be tuned out in any case simply because 'it wasn't their phase'.

 

I've had very simple combats take an eternity because people weren't 'in the game', and very complex fights with all the options in play, go very fast, because people were paying attention, and knew the rules well enough to actually play without having to ask "What do I need to roll?" I think 'that' is the true key to speed.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Speeding up combat "Restrict SPDs" is Dead Wrong

 

It might seem counter-intuitive, but from my personal experience having lower speeds across the board, and less spread between SPD values does in fact generally speed up combat resolution, and also makes for a more "realistic" experience allowing for better verisimilitude. There are few things odder than having a massively epic knock down drag out fight resolve so quickly in game time that less than 30 seconds have elapsed. Even soliloquies stop making sense -- everything is so sped up even saying "Avengers Assemble" takes longer than the actual fight. High speeds also play havoc with the balancing of certain limitations such as Extra Time, reduce the usefulness of Recovery, increase the usefulness of 1/2 and 0 END and having lots of END and STUN as well, and other effects besides.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Speeding up combat "Restrict SPDs" is Dead Wrong

 

Hmm. I don't know. I suppose it's easier if you only have to remember a couple of Segments in which you (and/or NPCs) act, but in terms of the flow of combat and the amount of real time it takes to resolve a combat, I don't think it matters a great deal whether your average Speed is 2 or 7. Actually the relative sparsity of Post-Segment-12 Recoveries might mean a quicker end to a combat with higher Speeds.

 

And as far as some players being left twiddling their thumbs, that's more a matter for restricting the range of Speeds than the maximum Speed. Of course, I've never been much for requiring that every character buy a certain amount of Speed myself; I like to let that sort itself out naturally, simply giving an average or typical range and possibly a maximum (encouraging rather than requiring). So in a way limiting the maximum Speed could be seen as a less stringent way of limiting the range of Speeds (since it doesn't force players to spend their points in a certain way like imposing a minimum does). **shrug**

[prestidigitator]

Re: Speeding up combat "Restrict SPDs" is Dead Wrong

 

High speeds also play havoc with the balancing of certain limitations such as Extra Time' date=' reduce the usefulness of Recovery, increase the usefulness of 1/2 and 0 END and having lots of END and STUN as well, and other effects besides.[/quote']

 

Hmm. Interesting. Yes. And, since 5E, vastly increases the effectiveness of Flash. I never really liked that change myself.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Speeding up combat "Restrict SPDs" is Dead Wrong

 

In volume 2 of the 6th Ed. Rulebook, on page 53 there is advice on how to speed up combat. And the advice could not possibly be more wrong.

 

"1. Restrict SPDs: The more Actions the participants can take, the longer combats last. Limiting characters to relatively low SPDs (such as a maximum of 4 or 5) can help to speed combats up some."

 

A villain has a certain amount of stun and a certain amount of defense. A given character (or set of them) will need to hit that villain with their attacks X number of times on average in order to do enough damage to bring the villain down. Reducing the speed of the characters does absolutely nothing to reduce X, the number of attacks it takes to bring the villain down. Players still have to play the exact same number of action phases in order to get in X number of attacks.

 

The effect of reducing speed is quite the contrary of what the book says in fact, because if the reduced speed means that the players cannot do enough attacks during the turn, the villain might well get a post segment twelve recovery, meaning it will take X attacks PLUS extra attacks to reduce what the villain gained during the post segment twelve recovery.

 

 

If all the characters are SPD 8, combat - both course and resolution - will be quicker than if all the characters are SPD 4 - all other things being equal - simply because characters get only half the relative number of recoveries.

 

However, as Hyper-Man pointed out, if you spend an extra 40 points on SPD, you're not spending it elsewhere - AND you'll find a lot more powers built with 'reduced END' - which also soaks up those points. However, if attacks remain at the same level, but everything else reduces - yes, combat will go faster.

 

I've often found a big SPD spread to be problematic as those with the low SPD can get bored (and start drinking and fall alseep and miss the end of the game )

[ghost-angel]

Re: Speeding up combat "Restrict SPDs" is Dead Wrong

 

Technically it's the tighter SPD grouping that speed up combat, not the lower SPDs in general - I would expect similar results if everyone had a 6-8 SPD or a 3-4 SPD. However, if you're giving everyone a similar SPD anyway, why make them spend tons of points on it? Because of that, I think reducing the overall SPD makes sense.

 

But really, what you want to avoid are PCs with 3 and 9 SPD in the same party, unless the 3 SPD guy really doesn't care about combat. It's not just combat effectiveness, a lower SPD means you actually get to play less.

 

I agree - the SPD Spread is a bigger factor than the SPD Numbers.

[The Main Man]

Re: Speeding up combat "Restrict SPDs" is Dead Wrong

 

Count me in on SPD spread being the big factor.

 

The other I would say are unattentive players who don't know when their phase is up, even if it's on their sheet, but that's something else entirely IMO.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Speeding up combat "Restrict SPDs" is Dead Wrong

 

Hmm. Interesting. Yes. And' date=' since 5E, vastly increases the effectiveness of Flash. I never really liked that change myself.[/quote']

 

Whether the change from Flash priced at 10 points per 1d6, and measured in phases, to Flash priced at 5 points per 1d6, and measured in segments,makes it more powerful or less powerful, depends on other factors. In a game with a SPD range from 2 to 4, Flash for 6 phases is more powerful than a flash for 12 segments. Bump the SPD range up to 6 - 9 and a 12 segment Flash seems a lot more effective.

 

I liked the change to segments because it made a range of flash defenses more practical. In a 60 AP game, 10 flash defense translated to "cannot be flashed". No point buying AP Flash - the reduction in dice meant 10 Flash defense still eliminated the effects. Under the 5e approach, 5 flash defense knocks a bit of the effect down, 10 defense still leaves a bit of effect, and even 15 flash defense is no guarantee against a 9 - 10 d6 AP Flash.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Speeding up combat "Restrict SPDs" is Dead Wrong

 

Whether the change from Flash priced at 10 points per 1d6' date=' and measured in phases, to Flash priced at 5 points per 1d6, and measured in segments,makes it more powerful or less powerful, depends on other factors. In a game with a SPD range from 2 to 4, Flash for 6 phases is more powerful than a flash for 12 segments. Bump the SPD range up to 6 - 9 and a 12 segment Flash seems a lot more effective.[/quote']

 

I wasn't talking about it becoming more effective, but about it becoming more effective vs. high-Speed characters. When your Speed (and/or the average Speed) is 3, a 6 Segment Flash can be painful. When your Speed (and/or the average Speed) is 8, a 6 Segment Flash is going to be absolutely devastating.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Speeding up combat "Restrict SPDs" is Dead Wrong

 

Didn't used to affect the Target at their Phase? If you got flashed for 10 then you lost 10 Phases, for a SPD 5 character that was two Turns, for a SPD7 that was one turn plus half another. Seems to me it became less effective against high speed characters.

 

I could be remembering wrong though.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Speeding up combat "Restrict SPDs" is Dead Wrong

 

Didn't used to affect the Target at their Phase? If you got flashed for 10 then you lost 10 Phases, for a SPD 5 character that was two Turns, for a SPD7 that was one turn plus half another. Seems to me it became less effective against high speed characters.

 

I could be remembering wrong though.

 

Yes, it was a number of Phases rather than Segments before 5E. Which made the effect the same in terms of the number of your own actions you lost (and the number of opponents' actions that could be used against you if we're talking campaign-average Speeds), and gave a character with a high relative Speed compared to his opponents an advantage because he would recover quicker compared to the number of actions the opponents got. So as the average campaign Speed increased, Flash scaled pretty well before 5E, as opposed to becoming more and more effective as average Speed goes up in 5E+.

 

I would have been happier with the change if the system had at least held onto an official option for keeping Flash per-Phase rather than per-Segment. Nothing wrong with more options, and being able to keep an effect around for a certain amount of game-world wall clock time is admittedly nice, but it doesn't balance nearly so well IMO so a total change wasn't great.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Speeding up combat "Restrict SPDs" is Dead Wrong

 

Yes' date=' it was a number of Phases rather than Segments before 5E. Which made the effect the same in terms of the number of your own actions you lost (and the number of opponents' actions that could be used against you if we're talking campaign-average Speeds), and gave a character with a high [i']relative[/i] Speed compared to his opponents an advantage because he would recover quicker compared to the number of actions the opponents got. So as the average campaign Speed increased, Flash scaled pretty well before 5E, as opposed to becoming more and more effective as average Speed goes up in 5E+.

 

I would have been happier with the change if the system had at least held onto an official option for keeping Flash per-Phase rather than per-Segment. Nothing wrong with more options, and being able to keep an effect around for a certain amount of game-world wall clock time is admittedly nice, but it doesn't balance nearly so well IMO so a total change wasn't great.

I think the change to Flash in 5th was a big improvement. Nor do I see it as harming faster characters more than lower SPD ones. When the Flash goes by Segments instead of Phases, each character suffers the same percentage of Phases blinded. The faster character may lose more Phases, but they also have more Phases to lose.

[mattingly]

Re: Speeding up combat "Restrict SPDs" is Dead Wrong

 

One argument I like in favor of lower SPDs is that the outsite world "goes faster" in relation to the heroes. If you're racing against a clock to defuse a bomb or catch a falling gilfriend, the lower SPDs are more dramatic tension. Combat doesn't really go faster, but it can be more exciting, and feel faster.

[Greywind]

Re: Speeding up combat "Restrict SPDs" is Dead Wrong

 

...I feel with my hands...