Usable [As Second Form Of Attack] (+1/4)

[Utech]

Any thoughts on this tool for the toolkit? I see it as an alternative (not a replacement) to Multipower and VPP.

 

Usable [As Second Form Of Attack] (+1/4): A character can use this Advantage, which requires the GM's permission, to make his main Attack Power function as a second form of attack. Examples include: A laser Energy Blast that can be depowered and redirected toward an enemy's eyes as a Flash; an axe that can be used hand-to-hand or thrown Killing Attack (HKA or RKA); and Mental Illusions that can be so convincing that they are able to function as Mind Control. When used as the second form of attack, the power is subject to all rules governing that Attack Power, instead of the rules for the primary Attack Power. For example, Energy Blast usable as Ego Attack uses ECV instead of OCV to hit when the character uses the Ego Attack.

To use this Advantage, a character must apply it to the more expensive of the Attack Powers he wants to use. He can't buy the cheaper one and then use the Advantage to make it function like the more expensive one. Changing from one form of attack to another is a Zero Phase Action, but a character can only do it once per Phase. The GM can forbid any particular use of this Advantage that seems unbalancing or inappropriate. The GM can also allow a character to buy this Advantage multiple times for the same Attack Power, allowing it to function as three, four, or more forms of Attack.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Usable [As Second Form Of Attack] (+1/4)

 

It looks like a solution in search of a problem to me. What can you do with this that you can't do with a MP or VPP?

 

If you're simply trying to avoid using a framework, I believe the canonical way is to buy the Powers separately, and then apply the Lockout (and possibly Unified Power) Limitation to each of them.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Usable [As Second Form Of Attack] (+1/4)

 

I disagree: it is a logical extension of the 'Useable as second form of movement' advantage, and makes more sense than a MP in interaction with adjustment powers. I quite like it.

[Utech]

Re: Usable [As Second Form Of Attack] (+1/4)

 

It looks like a solution in search of a problem to me. What can you do with this that you can't do with a MP or VPP?

Certainly the same question could be directed at Usable [As Second Mode Of Movement], couldn't it? It's a simple matter to build an MP with Flight and Gliding in it. The VPP is a tad more complex, but certainly could serve.

 

If you're simply trying to avoid using a framework...

I'm not. I'm considering the logical extension of another existing Advantage.

 

Though I have not written them up, these would also be logical extensions:

Usable [As Second Form of Defense Power] (+1/4)

Usable [As Second Form of Adjustment Power] (+1/4)

Usable [As Second Form of Body Affecting Power] (+1/4)

Usable [As Second Form of Mental Power] (+1/4)

Usable [As Second Form of Sensory Power] (+1/4)

Usable [As Second Form of Size Power] (+1/4)

Usable [As Second Form of Special Power] (+1/4)

Usable [As Second Form of Standard Power] (+1/4)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Usable [As Second Form Of Attack] (+1/4)

 

First off, if I were going to use this, I'd translate on DC's rather than dice. That way, whether you buy Mental Blast usable as Blast, or Blast usable as Mental Blast, you get 6d6 Mental Blast and 12d6 of Blast.

 

But I agree with the other posters that a multipower would do the job just as well, or better. The construct above costs 75 points, and a MP with both powers would cost 72 (less if Unified Power is applied). All this approach really does is result in another cost comparison to assess whether a VPP, MP or this advantage will get the same result for a lower cost.

[Beast]

Re: Usable [As Second Form Of Attack] (+1/4)

 

I could see this as using a Killing attack as a Normal attack

any more and you might as well buy an MP

would work well in 5th ed EC

[ghost-angel]

Re: Usable [As Second Form Of Attack] (+1/4)

 

The biggest difference between Movement and other Powers is that Movement is the one ability where shifting from one to the next in the same action is more common.

 

Like a ship going from flying to diving underwater (spaceships like to do this, so does the batplane on occasion, or the secret agents organization that laucnhes the jet from the underwater cave).

 

Or running along the ground then up a skyscraper (Running -> Flight;Along A Surface).

 

Other abilities don't lend so well to that conceptualization, and thus, in my mind, don't warrant them switching themselves out like that so well. I'm not sure this won't cause more balance issues than it will solve.

[Utech]

Re: Usable [As Second Form Of Attack] (+1/4)

 

The biggest difference between Movement and other Powers is that Movement is the one ability where shifting from one to the next in the same action is more common.

While I appreciate your interesting analysis, it suggests this question: What does Usable [As Second Mode Of Movement] do that a movement MP doesn't?

 

You could still run up to a building (MP slot: Running) and then run up it (switch to MP slot: Flight along surfaces), couldn't you?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Usable [As Second Form Of Attack] (+1/4)

 

Generally speaking - you can only switch slots in a Multipower at the start of your Phase.

 

While technically legal to switch mid Phase, many GMs don't allow it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Usable [As Second Form Of Attack] (+1/4)

 

Two separate modes of movement require you count each mode used as a separate half move. If I have 40 meters Flight, Usable as Swimming, can I move 12 meters above water, then 8 underwater and still have my half phase left? That's something a movement multipower can't do, by the book.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Usable [As Second Form Of Attack] (+1/4)

 

Two separate modes of movement require you count each mode used as a separate half move. If I have 40 meters Flight' date=' Usable as Swimming, can I move 12 meters above water, then 8 underwater and still have my half phase left? That's something a movement multipower can't do, by the book.[/quote']

 

From the FAQ:

 

Can a character use two forms of movement in one Phase? If not, why can characters make running leaps?

 

If a character wanted to use two forms of movement in a Phase, he’d have to make a Half Move (defined, as always, as using up to half one’s inches of movement in a Phase) with both, effectively ending his Phase. A “running leap” is just a Leap — making a Leap may involve some running, as discussed by the rules on 5ER 35.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Usable [As Second Form Of Attack] (+1/4)

 

Hyper-Man; you've missed the point of Hugh's Post.

 

He isn't using Flight then Swimming, two separate Powers.

He's using One Movement Power that's usable two different ways. It is, as far as I can tell, still considered a single Half Move with a Single Movement even if split in two environments.

 

Which is why it's an Advantage.

I am unaware of any wording that says differently.

[Phil]

Re: Usable [As Second Form Of Attack] (+1/4)

 

Strikes me that Usable as a Second Form of Movement is a clumsy solution for a problem that just requires common sense adjudication.

 

So long as the multipower slots are not Ultra's, I see no issue in allowing characters to take a 3/5ths move followed by a 2/5ths move, or any other fractional combination of movement powers - now technically, doing this will allow the character to move 9/25ths of their first movement power, because they will be using 3/5ths of a movement power to which they have allocated 3/5ths of the multipower. But again, I'd happily handwave this for the sake of "reality".

[Lucius]

Re: Usable [As Second Form Of Attack] (+1/4)

 

Utech - nothing about it strikes me as obviously unbalancing or otherwise objectionable.

 

I'm not sure it is something the system "needs" but for some uses it may be a simpler solution than a multipower without being too much less cost-efficient.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Backandforthtrian, Usable as Palindromedary

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Usable [As Second Form Of Attack] (+1/4)

 

I see the logic put forth by Hugh and GA in this instance.

 

I just usually take a more conservative approach in my interpretation of Usable as a Second Form of Movement. Mainly because I almost never take the Advantage by itself but rather include it as part of a limited suite of Variable Advantage options. The primary advantage of this is that it can be used in multiple situations (an individual movement power outside of a framework, a slot in a 5th ed EC framework or an ultra slot in a multipower).

 

I also see the logic of allowing some leeway for multiple multi/variable slot movement powers in a Multipower as well.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Usable [As Second Form Of Attack] (+1/4)

 

Any thoughts on this tool for the toolkit? I see it as an alternative (not a replacement) to Multipower and VPP.

 

Usable [As Second Form Of Attack] (+1/4): A character can use this Advantage, which requires the GM's permission, to make his main Attack Power function as a second form of attack. Examples include: A laser Energy Blast that can be depowered and redirected toward an enemy's eyes as a Flash; an axe that can be used hand-to-hand or thrown Killing Attack (HKA or RKA); and Mental Illusions that can be so convincing that they are able to function as Mind Control. When used as the second form of attack, the power is subject to all rules governing that Attack Power, instead of the rules for the primary Attack Power. For example, Energy Blast usable as Ego Attack uses ECV instead of OCV to hit when the character uses the Ego Attack.

To use this Advantage, a character must apply it to the more expensive of the Attack Powers he wants to use. He can't buy the cheaper one and then use the Advantage to make it function like the more expensive one. Changing from one form of attack to another is a Zero Phase Action, but a character can only do it once per Phase. The GM can forbid any particular use of this Advantage that seems unbalancing or inappropriate. The GM can also allow a character to buy this Advantage multiple times for the same Attack Power, allowing it to function as three, four, or more forms of Attack.

 

 

The biggest dangers I see in allowing this Advantage in a game are basically the same ones that are inherent with VPP's.

 

If all the major possible uses aren't spelled out beforehand the GM might approve it and then get side-swiped in game by the character changing the base attack to something like HA (which stacks with STR) potentially creating a much bigger attack than seems possible on the surface.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Usable [As Second Form Of Attack] (+1/4)

 

Strikes me that Usable as a Second Form of Movement is a clumsy solution for a problem that just requires common sense adjudication.

 

So long as the multipower slots are not Ultra's, I see no issue in allowing characters to take a 3/5ths move followed by a 2/5ths move, or any other fractional combination of movement powers - now technically, doing this will allow the character to move 9/25ths of their first movement power, because they will be using 3/5ths of a movement power to which they have allocated 3/5ths of the multipower. But again, I'd happily handwave this for the sake of "reality".

 

I'm quite happpy to handwave this for movement powers purchased outside multipowers (if you have 9" Running and 3" swimming, why shouldn't you be able to make a full move consisting of 6" Running, and 1" Swimming?). I'd also be OK with this in a Multipower - you can technically change the allocation of the Multipower during your move, so you simply swap it from 9" Running to 3" swimming. Even if they are Ultra's, it hardly seems unbalancing. But, by the book, you can't do this. And it does create some math issues if you have different amounts of the various movement powers, so some people would prefer to avoid this added complexity.

 

"Usable as a second form of movement" eliminates the complexity - all the movement powers have the same maximum distance, so there's no pro rating required. As well, the advantage is more expensive than a multipower of movement powers, so it seems reasonable it should carry some advantage over such a multipower under the book rules.

[Utech]

Re: Usable [As Second Form Of Attack] (+1/4)

 

Hyper-Man; you've missed the point of Hugh's Post.

 

He isn't using Flight then Swimming, two separate Powers.

He's using One Movement Power that's usable two different ways. It is, as far as I can tell, still considered a single Half Move with a Single Movement even if split in two environments.

 

Which is why it's an Advantage.

I am unaware of any wording that says differently.

 

Well, the text for this Advantage does say:

Changing from one mode of movement to another is a Zero Phase Action, but a character can only do it once per Phase.

I think this is exactly how an MP works. You can make a half move using one mode of movement, use a Zero Phase Action to change to another mode of movement, and use the remaining half move. The Advantage does not allow you to (for example) fly in and out of the water -- switching from Flight to Swimming to Flight to Swimming -- multiple times in one action. It does not allow you to take, say, a 1/4 move in Flight and then 3/4 in Swimming. That could easily be house-ruled in, but then you can easily do the same for movement powers in an MP.

[Utech]

Re: Usable [As Second Form Of Attack] (+1/4)

 

The biggest dangers I see in allowing this Advantage in a game are basically the same ones that are inherent with VPP's.

 

If all the major possible uses aren't spelled out beforehand the GM might approve it and then get side-swiped in game by the character changing the base attack to something like HA (which stacks with STR) potentially creating a much bigger attack than seems possible on the surface.

 

Sure. But that's clear in the text for the Advantage. You must clear all uses of this Advantage with your GM.

[Utech]

Re: Usable [As Second Form Of Attack] (+1/4)

 

Although not book-legal in how they've suggested it so far, several people have indicated that a big advantage (pardon me) of the original movement power Advantage is that it allows you to switch from one mode of movement to another as one continuous action. According to the RAW that's not true, but I agree with the logic and think it ought to be that way.

 

So here's another thought:

What if Usable [As Second Form Of Attack] worked more like an MP with flexible slots? With every use, you could decide how much of each attack you'd like to launch.

 

Example: Energy Blast, Usable [as Flash] would allow you to throw a pure Energy Blast, a pure Flash, a half-strength EB and half-strength Flash, a 1/4 strength EB and 3/4 strength Flash, etc.

 

You probably couldn't mix HTH and ranged attacks easily, of course. Are there other thoughts about how this might work (or not)?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Usable [As Second Form Of Attack] (+1/4)

 

60 point pool, variable slot = 12 points

 

60 point power, +1/4 = 15 points

 

Personally I like the idea, but you may have a job selling it at the increased price unless it also delivers increased utility.

[Ice9]

Re: Usable [As Second Form Of Attack] (+1/4)

 

How does this interact with other advantages? Let's say I buy this:

 

Barrage of Arrows

RKA 2d6, AoE (8m Radius) Selective, Usable as Blast

NOTE: Blast is for blunt-tipped arrows

 

When it's used as the alternate form, does it automatically have the same advantages (AoE Selective), or can it have different ones up to the same AP? So for instance, could you have this?

 

Energy Beam

RKA 4d6, Usable as AoE (32m Line) Blast

NOTE: Would be 8d6 in AoE form.

[Utech]

Re: Usable [As Second Form Of Attack] (+1/4)

 

How does this interact with other advantages?

The same way the existing Usable [As Second Mode Of Movement] Advantage does.

 

I believe that means that whatever Advantages and Limitations are on the "base" movement power carry over to the second. They cannot be changed.

[Utech]

Re: Usable [As Second Form Of Attack] (+1/4)

 

60 point pool, variable slot = 12 points

 

60 point power, +1/4 = 15 points

 

Personally I like the idea, but you may have a job selling it at the increased price unless it also delivers increased utility.

 

60 point MP pool cost = 60

variable slot 1 = 12 points

variable slot 2 = 12 points

Total Cost: 84 points

 

60 point Attack Power with Usable [As Second Form of Attack] +1/4

Total Cost: 75 points

 

If my math is right (quite possibly not the case...)

A three-slot MP with variable slots costs 96 points. Taking the Usable Advantage twice on a 60 point power costs 90 points.

A four-slot MP with variable slots costs 108 points. Taking the Usable Advantage three times on a 60 point power costs 105 points.

A five-slot MP with variable slots costs 120 points. Taking the Usable Advantage four times on a 60 point power costs 120 points.

 

Of course the MP could include non-Attack Powers, which is quite an advantage. Also, I'm pretty sure putting a limitation on the MP pool and slots quite dramatically changes the math.