Dispel Undead

[Alcamtar]

I'm not fond of the way "turn undead" is handled in 5e Fantasy Hero. The presence attack idea is good, but the idea of PRE+40 doing damage doesn't seem right. No other PRE attacks get to deal damage... it seems like it should cost points.

 

Anyway I was thinking about how to build a "greater turning" power that deals damage on a PRE+40 attack. It is kind of complicated, and I'm not sure about the limitation values:

 

Greater Turning:

• RKA 1d6
  
• line of sight (+½)
  
• zero END (+½)
  
• affects desolidified (+½) -- can't forget those pesky wraiths
  
• area 8m radius (+½)
  
• only vs. undead (-1½)
  
• linked to presence attack (-½)
  
• incantation (-¼) -- "Back, foul fiend!"
  
• gesture (-¼) -- forcefully present a holy cross
  
• OAF holy symbol (-1)
  
• damage is all or nothing (-1)
  
• requires PRE+40 attack (-1)
  

 

Cost: 2 per DC, 6 per 1d6

 

Effect: when you make a Presence roll against undead, if you score PRE+40, you can do damage to the affected undead. The damage affects an 8m radius area. Undead are either unharmed or destroyed by the attack. Desolidified undead are affected. This is an area attack (vs. DCV 3) with a line of sight range and costs no Endurance. While PRE attacks are normally a zero phase action, if you are dispelling undead it counts as a regular attack. PRE attacks against undead can of course still be made without dispelling if desired.

 

Comments?

[薔薇語]

Re: Dispel Undead

 

If the undead is built as a Summon, Dispel will work as an all or nothing solution. Even if it isn't (although I'd be curious what the other builds are, and if they are built in such a way that Dispel wouldn't work anyway) then the GM might allow the points of Dispel to translate as another game effect.

 

La Rose.

[Matt Holck]

Re: Dispel Undead

 

automation such as skeletons and zombies aren't effected by presence attacks

[SirViss]

Re: Dispel Undead

 

automation such as skeletons and zombies aren't effected by presence attacks

 

In the 5ed Fantasy Hero the power to Turn Undead was based on the Presence Attack mechanic. The fact the Undead Automatons (skeletons and zombies) shouldn't be affected by it was hand-waved for the purpose of this power.

[Matt Holck]

Re: Dispel Undead

 

line of sight

and 0 end could be dropped from the advantages without changing the concept

(15+1=30-11/2=5 per 1d6 RKA)

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Dispel Undead

 

The other way to handle undead is to just dispose of the idea of requiring that "holy" characters purchase a power to allow them to "turn undead". Instead, just give ALL "undead" a disad for the appropriate effects of a PRE attack by a "holy" character. This just requires that "holy" characters have an appropriate "perk" (which most already do). That way "turn undead" is based primarily on a character's PRE and any appropriate interaction skills (or possibly even a custom one analogous to how Chinese Healing compares to Paramedics).

[薔薇語]

Re: Dispel Undead

 

*Facepalm*

 

Now why did I not think of that, Hyperman. Rep.

 

La Rose.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Dispel Undead

 

Back in 4e days, I built out custom Turn or Harm undead effects (or not) for the package deals of followers of different gods based on that god's nature. There was quite a bit of individualism and it had its charms. The priests of one god might have an RKA based effect while another might have a Mind Control based effect, and so on and so forth. It could get quite expensive however.

 

 

I had some initial concerns over the 5e Turn Undead as special re-purposed PRE Attack when FH came out, but I gave it a try and it actually worked pretty well in practice, though it could take a significant investment to be reliable with it.

 

It's a non issue to me; individual GM's can "solve" the problem however they like, and several such abilities should also be able to co-exist within a given campaign as long as their cost to effectiveness ration is close to par.

[Rapier]

Re: Dispel Undead

 

We ran into a similar problem with my last group. We thought about Limited RKAs and EB, but by the time you took into account all the Advantages it got crazy expensive, as you've noticed. We also wondered about using Dispels, but how do you Dispel something that was never Summoned (eg Lich). We considered a MultiPower but that got crazy huge with a half dozen slots and sucked up more points than was spent on spells.

 

Finally we settled on a two part method:

1) Turning PRE Attack: +x PRE Only for PRE Attacks to Turn Undead

2) Disad (oh what's the new word, Complication?) on all Undead: Takes Body from Turning (or Can Be Turned)

 

Over the years we tinkered with making it a Physical Limitation where you just counted the BODY like a normal attack, a Susceptibility (1d6 for every 1d6 of PRE Attack or BODY = Total on Dice) or just a Custom 20pt Disad.

 

The 'problem' we had with our builds was we kept having clerics who were able to use a Turn as a free EB. They resorted to Turning instead of swinging a weapon. For a while we tried a 'cumulative effect' where no BODY was done until enough was done to destroy the undead. For a while we were also ok with clerics using a Turn as a weapon.

 

I think our final solution (regardless of how we built the Disad) was the best out of all our ideas. It worked really well, was simple and didn't cost an arm and a leg.

[Matt Holck]

Re: Dispel Undead

 

I have a cleric that found the Book of Juiblex

http://kyle-hunter.livejournal.com/3681.html

 

He could turn and command all forms of slime, pudding, oozes and jellies

[Markdoc]

Re: Dispel Undead

 

I've also hated (and never used) the suggested 5E mechanism. Where appropriate in my games, undead have simply had susceptibilities. You could if you wanted, simply give them a susceptibility to PRE attacks by holy persons - and then let holy persons buy limited PRE attacks.

 

It's worth noting that the current versions of D&D have done away with turning in favor of damage-based approaches, which personally, I prefer.

 

cheers, Mark

[薔薇語]

Re: Dispel Undead

 

Finally we settled on a two part method:

1) Turning PRE Attack: +x PRE Only for PRE Attacks to Turn Undead

2) Disad (oh what's the new word, Complication?) on all Undead: Takes Body from Turning (or Can Be Turned)

 

Over the years we tinkered with making it a Physical Limitation where you just counted the BODY like a normal attack, a Susceptibility (1d6 for every 1d6 of PRE Attack or BODY = Total on Dice) or just a Custom 20pt Disad.

 

It seems like the best way to get the powers to be both in a reasonable range of cost for the PC without making them 'free-be' is to make the automatic setting complication for all undead be "vulnerable." Week undead (shambling zombies) have it as a 2x and strong undead (litch) at 1.5x. That way a Cleric who has a 5DC killing attack build now does 10DC against week undead (~11damage killing). It keeps the builds from having to get too expensive but rewards the PCs for putting points into it. Sure, anyone can buy the a 1DC Killing attack turn power but its the guy that buys the 8DC that really gets to shine.

 

La Rose.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Dispel Undead

 

I just thought up a novel idea to (try) to do turn undead. Bear with me, the cost or ramifications not worked out. How about write up the base power as extra dimensional movement. Because I'm thinking mechanically, it doesn't matter if the skeleton is destroyed or if its sent to another dimension where it can't come back from. Also add requires an ego roll. The represents how much faith the priest has. And add the limitation skill contest. This would be used for greater undead, such as your vampire. Of course add any other advantages or limitations as you feel are appropriate.

[Alcamtar]

Re: Dispel Undead

 

The other way to handle undead is to just dispose of the idea of requiring that "holy" characters purchase a power to allow them to "turn undead". Instead' date=' just give ALL "undead" a disad for the appropriate effects of a PRE attack by a "holy" character. This just requires that "holy" characters have an appropriate "perk" (which most already do). That way "turn undead" is based primarily on a character's PRE[/quote']

This is basically the 5e FH method. There are two things I dislike about this:

 

First, it requires all undead to essentially nerf themselves with a disad. On the one hand it makes it easy to create an unturnable foe by simply not taking the disad, but what if I want to create a special undead that can turn clerics? Since this could theoretically apply to any character for some class of foes (which I may not have invented yet), should ALL characters have to take a "susceptibility to nemesis" disad? It seems to me that the burden-of-attack should be on the cleric not the undead, and vice versa. If the undead just nerf themselves, it's a freebie for the cleric.

 

Which leads to my second objection, that dispelling undead is too cheap. I think the PRE attack is the right mechanism for turning, but it seems too cheap for dispelling, and far too powerful. It is basically a form of AVLD (defense is EGO or PRE), area effect, with no attack roll, and it is a free action. That is extremely powerful. The original idea from D&D was also seriously overpowered, Gary even admitted as much. What I want to do is make it balanced so you pay for what you get, not make it really cheap to ensure that all clerics can do it easily.

[薔薇語]

Re: Dispel Undead

 

Alcamtar, there is a distinction in the turning of undead and turning of Clerics. One is a standard of the setting and the other isn't. If you, however, want the ability to turn / destroy undead to be costly, then don't add in a disad. One could even make it more costly than simple PRE attack by making it a Mind Control attack (to rebuke them) or a Killing/transform attack to destroy them. That can and will be costlier than a normal PRE attack and shifts all the cost to the caster. The build could be attached to anyone (cleric or undead) to affect anyone (cleric or undead).

 

La Rose.

[Rapier]

Re: Dispel Undead

 

I just thought up a novel idea to (try) to do turn undead. Bear with me' date=' the cost or ramifications not worked out. How about write up the base power as extra dimensional movement. Because I'm thinking mechanically, it doesn't matter if the skeleton is destroyed or if its sent to another dimension where it can't come back from. Also add requires an ego roll. The represents how much faith the priest has. And add the limitation skill contest. This would be used for greater undead, such as your vampire. Of course add any other advantages or limitations as you feel are appropriate.[/quote']

 

EDM UAA?

 

Extra-Dimensional Movement (Single Dimension), Affects Desolidified Any form of Desolidification (+1/2), Usable As Attack (+1) (50 Active Points); Requires An EGO Roll (RSR Skill is subject to Skill vs. Skill contests; -1 1/4)

 

22 Active Points.

 

Just off the top of my head, I will dismiss 99.999% of all EDM uses. It's a pet peeve of mine. For a number of years, there seemed to be two major "I can't/don't want to figure out how to build this with a regular power" builds. They were EDM and Major Transform. Not to say that you fall into this category, but I doubly shy away from builds that take the long way around to get an effect. If you want to destroy something, use a build that inflicts damage. It is 99.9% of the time going to be a better model for the effect.

 

One of the main problems, in this case, with using an EGO v EGO resisted EDM is that a great deal of 'standard' undead builds have them built as automotons (no EGO). This also does not offer the chance to simply have them flee (the most common result of a Turn).

 

I can understand, to an extent, the urge to simply throw the problem to the EDM wolves, but I think it is a poor model for the ability. An attack (be it an RKA, Blast or even a DOES BODY PRE Attack) is simpler, more straight forward, fits into the normal ruleset without extra rules and exceptions and is more straight forward.

 

Oh hey. Something that just occured to me:

 

Turn Undead: (Total: 60 Active Cost, 45 Real Cost) +25 PRE (25 Active Points); Limited Power Only to Turn Undead (-1 1/2) (Real Cost: 10) plus Does BODY (+1) for up to 35 Active Points of Turn Undead (Real Cost: 35)

 

That actually has some possibilities.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Dispel Undead

 

EDM UAA?

 

Extra-Dimensional Movement (Single Dimension), Affects Desolidified Any form of Desolidification (+1/2), Usable As Attack (+1) (50 Active Points); Requires An EGO Roll (RSR Skill is subject to Skill vs. Skill contests; -1 1/4)

 

22 Active Points.

 

Just off the top of my head, I will dismiss 99.999% of all EDM uses. It's a pet peeve of mine. For a number of years, there seemed to be two major "I can't/don't want to figure out how to build this with a regular power" builds. They were EDM and Major Transform. Not to say that you fall into this category, but I doubly shy away from builds that take the long way around to get an effect. If you want to destroy something, use a build that inflicts damage. It is 99.9% of the time going to be a better model for the effect.

 

One of the main problems, in this case, with using an EGO v EGO resisted EDM is that a great deal of 'standard' undead builds have them built as automotons (no EGO). This also does not offer the chance to simply have them flee (the most common result of a Turn).

 

I can understand, to an extent, the urge to simply throw the problem to the EDM wolves, but I think it is a poor model for the ability. An attack (be it an RKA, Blast or even a DOES BODY PRE Attack) is simpler, more straight forward, fits into the normal ruleset without extra rules and exceptions and is more straight forward.

 

Oh hey. Something that just occured to me:

 

Turn Undead: (Total: 60 Active Cost, 45 Real Cost) +25 PRE (25 Active Points); Limited Power Only to Turn Undead (-1 1/2) (Real Cost: 10) plus Does BODY (+1) for up to 35 Active Points of Turn Undead (Real Cost: 35)

 

That actually has some possibilities.

 

I've also been considering using Does Body. Meebee not strictly book legal, but it conveys the desired effect nicely. Another idea that crossed my mind was using a naked Does Knockback.

 

maybe a tiered system?

Does Knockback, requires PRE+10 Effect

X1 1/2 Knockback, requires PRE+20

X2 Knockback, requires PRE+30

+Does Body, Requires PRE+40

[Alcamtar]

Re: Dispel Undead

 

I like the Does BODY idea, that may be the solution I'm looking for.

 

Also the tiered idea is cool. I was considering some sort of killing attack and does knockback as adders to the base PRE roll, and the tiered idea sort of expands that. It would also be possible to have a partial Does BODY:

 

+60 PRE for turning undead

naked Does BODY advantage on 30 points of PRE

 

so you'd roll +6d6 Does BODY, and an additional +6d6 for Turning only

[Matt Holck]

Re: Dispel Undead

 

"get out, you're dead already!"

 

 

what sort of inpressive actions could add to the presence roll for turning the undead?

[Rapier]

Re: Dispel Undead

 

what sort of inpressive actions could add to the presence roll for turning the undead?

 

Well, in theory, not a lot. If you happened to just act as an avatar for your deity, maybe a few dice.

 

Extra dice (from actions) for PRE Attacks are always at the GM's discretion. He (or she) gets to decide if your actions are impressive enough to warrant extra dice. In this case, the answer is almost always going to be 'no.'

[Matt Holck]

Re: Dispel Undead

 

Sanctuary spell (the recipient of the blessing would not be attacked by others)

could use presence to achieve that effect and turn those that would harm them.

[dmjalund]

Re: Dispel Undead

 

my thoughtss are that undead come under the heading of a specific special effect, and giving them all the same disadvantage is very appropriate (say in an undead package deal).

 

Having said that, I also believe it should not be easy for clerics to dispel them.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Dispel Undead

 

this was bouncing around in my head and I realized that for the most part, in most of the games I've run, I've pretty much always considered Undead in my games to be effectively "Summoned" (in game terms) creatures, so they're valid targets for Dispel. Following that logic, linking in a Dispel Undead that uses the same roll as the Presence attack dice could work well. Lower level undead would crumble under the power much sooner than higher point level examples... hmmmm....

[Rapier]

Re: Dispel Undead

 

this was bouncing around in my head and I realized that for the most part' date=' in most of the games I've run, I've pretty much always considered Undead in my games to be effectively "Summoned" (in game terms) creatures, so they're valid targets for Dispel. Following that logic, linking in a Dispel Undead that uses the same roll as the Presence attack dice could work well. Lower level undead would crumble under the power much sooner than higher point level examples... hmmmm....[/quote']

 

Possibly, but one of my favourite effects was the 'flee before my holy might.' An effect which cannot be achieved with a Dispel.

 

Combining the Dispel (or Linking) to a PRE attack, sounds to get awfully expensive rather quickly.

 

I guess it depends on the kinds of point totals you are dealing with but that would be a considerable investment in points for most of my FH characters.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Dispel Undead

 

Possibly, but one of my favourite effects was the 'flee before my holy might.' An effect which cannot be achieved with a Dispel.

 

Combining the Dispel (or Linking) to a PRE attack, sounds to get awfully expensive rather quickly.

 

I guess it depends on the kinds of point totals you are dealing with but that would be a considerable investment in points for most of my FH characters.

 

My intent wasn't to replace the PRE attack mechanic, just the (IMO) not so well balanced PRE+40 "damaging" level.

As for the cost, I'd probably make this a separate Talent like "Destroyer of the Unclean" on top of the basic Turning Talent, so not all priests can muster up the faith to actually banish the undead, but most can at the least repel them.

I'm still heavily favoring adding a naked Does Knockback construct for the basic ability.