Ranged HA - What so bad about it

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Ranged HA - What so bad about it

 

I confess I was hoping for a more logical (in my mind) resolution to the STR boosting/range dichotomy between normal and killing damage in 6e. I can see some point cost rationale for the way it was done, but I find it logically inconsistent to say I can have a HKA with the Advantage Range Based on STR, but I can't do that with a HTH. I was hoping for something like the solutions mentioned above where we would just have a base attack to which Range or STR Adds would be an Advantage (or the lack thereof a Limitation). As is I am just going to let players put Range Based on STR on their HTH attacks for thrown weapons as a house rule.

[dsatow]

Re: Ranged HA - What so bad about it

 

So how would this apply to the killing attack? Simple. HKA goes. We keep RKA, but it's now "killing attack" and ranged by default (we don't have HTH Drain or HTH Flash either...). You want claws that do 2d6 KA + 2d6 for your 30 STR? Well, that's 2d6 KA - No Range (-1/2), plus 2d6 KA - No Range, drained with STR (-1/4) cannot MPA with STR (-1/4 - generous). Total AP60, total real cost 20 + 15 = 35.

 

First, I am not selectively singling out Hugh as there were a couple of other people doing the same thing, but I am singling him out in that his was the last post. As I stated in the first post, this isn't a question of whether we can do this in a different way using limitations and advantages already in the game. Its why or why not Range HA is offensive.

[dsatow]

Re: Ranged HA - What so bad about it

 

So far, if I can summarize at this point.

 

In the two camps:

 

Ranged HA == OK (pro)

1 - It logically fits in with the other mechanics.

2 - It's as game imbalancing as HKA with Ranged.

 

Ranged HA != OK (against)

1 - There are other ways to do it. (The conservative argument - it ain't broke don't fix it)

2 - It opens a can of worms with characteristics affecting powers.

3 - There is an inherent limitation on HA which adding ranged would screw up.

Solutions suggested

1 - Get rid of HA and HKA and add an advantage can add a characteristic to power for (+1/2).

2 - Allow ranged on HA and change the mandatory limitation on HA to Damage Only.

 

BTW: under the Ranged HA == OK heading and Solution 1, HA is currently the only power with a mandatory limitation. Doing solution 1 would also get rid of this discrepancy.

[torchwolf]

Re: Ranged HA - What so bad about it

 

Further speculation:

 

All this is of course dependent on how much trouble it is worth for a particular campaign. Sure, 5 pts could represent 1 DC with no range, regardless of what it's built from, and it may be required to buy this aspect of STR separately from lifting capacity and STR Rolls, redesigning everything to a base of a single ability bought at a time, but that is not on my top 10 list at the moment.

However, I realize that it might make more sense in some respects if the ability to add STR damage to a ranged attack by requiring the STR to be used for this purpose buy Ranged as a Naked Advantage for use with that STR.

 

I would like to add that I think Range Based On STR (+1/4) makes more sense than Ranged (+1/2), if applied to the HA as it is currently built. I see no particularly unbalancing issue with this other than that an Advantage shouldn't neutralize a Limitation and vice versa. In this particular case, a limited range may be reasonable since STR already adds to damage, and a picked up object might also be used either to hit an opponent in HTH or thrown at the opponent, so HA may reasonably be able to accomplish the same if built that way. Adding the full Ranged Advantage enters another level of usefulness, much like adding LOS to RBS and buying STR way up would.

 

About the HTH Attack Limitation: a Martial Arts Damage Class may add to the STR exerted as well as the damage from a Maneuver, but can only be applied to MA Maneuvers. This costs 4 Points, and is fairly limited in how you can use it, but if building it from STR:

How much would "Only To Do Damage/Exert Force With Martial Arts Maneuvers" be worth as a Limitation? Also (-1/4) ?

 

Another thing: how come HA wasn't simply built based on STR, No Range (-1/2) ?

 

Please forgive me if I trail off topic here.

[Ice9]

Re: Ranged HA - What so bad about it

 

To me, there is no compelling reason that the cost of doing, say, 4d6 of Killing Damage should be priced differently depending on how you buy it.

To an extent, that's true. But from another angle, the Strength-addition could be thought of as a virtual framework. For instance, if we had a character with a long-range Blast, a short-range Blast, and a melee Blast, they would probably have those in a Multipower and not be paying the full price three times. But someone with 60 STR and a Blast 12d6 for throwing things is paying the full price twice. The "Strength-adds" method is - point-wise - pretty similar to an EC:

 

30 Strong Guy (Elemental Control, 60 points)

30 Strength 60

30 Killing Attack 4d6

 

vs

 

60 Strength 60

30 HKA 2d6

[ghost-angel]

Re: Ranged HA - What so bad about it

 

While agree with your suggestion about the HA description I disagree about higher STR necessarily equating to to harder throws. Baseball pitchers and football QB's being prime examples' date=' they aren't necessarily the strongest members of their respective teams but they usually can throw their sports' balls the hardest. A martial arts-like skill is certainly one way to model aspects of this but it's usually easier to start with EB if working in a supers game at least.[/quote']

 

Now you're getting into how people have built specific muscle groups, ability to apply force over a short period versus lifting and a whole slew of - pardon my french - crap that has no business in a generic Strength Characteristic. If you're going to bring up this as an argument you have to them break down Strength into all the muscle groups, and how they have been built up too.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Ranged HA - What so bad about it

 

option 1

I want to police as little as possible

 

Don't play Hero.

 

No - I mean it. If you want to police as little as possible this is not the system for you. I wouldn't even recommend GURPS.

 

the entire system is built around options. You HAVE to take control of and "police" your game.

[Matt Holck]

Re: Ranged HA - What so bad about it

 

those words seem intended for bait.

 

The entire hero system is built around points

with the intent of producing characters that are roughly the same power if were built the same amount of points.

Hero systems does a good job of balancing characters though damage classes and defenses require imposed maximums

[Greywind]

Re: Ranged HA - What so bad about it

 

Imposed maximums of damage classes and defenses have to be policed by the GM. It is his responsibility to ensure that his vision of the world is not violated. To do this, policing of the characters is mandatory. When they are created through actual game play. The Hero System is just a system whereby the characters are created and doesn't do diddly for balancing without the GM policing the characters.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Ranged HA - What so bad about it

 

They weren't bait.

 

Points aren't a very good gauge of "power" in the first place.

 

Limits are not part of the Rules - so the Rules don't even police that far for you either - that's part of your job as a GM to set up those rules.

[tarragon]

Re: Ranged HA - What so bad about it

 

. But someone with 60 STR and a Blast 12d6 for throwing things is paying the full price twice.

 

Actually... In 6E is there a downside to putting STR and a blast in a multipower? Moving STR out of characteristics doesn't lose you any figures.

 

I don't see the downside.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Ranged HA - What so bad about it

 

First' date=' I am not selectively singling out Hugh as there were a couple of other people doing the same thing, but I am singling him out in that his was the last post. As I stated in the first post, this isn't a question of whether we can do this in a different way using limitations and advantages already in the game. Its why or why not Range HA is offensive.[/quote']

 

Well, I could assert that this is because Hand to Hand Attack includes the "no range" limitation and you can't combine the "no range" limitation with the "ranged" advantage.

 

However, in my view, it is offensive because, in Hero, you get what you pay for. Having a higher STR should not get you a bigger Blast, nor should it get you a bigger HKA. Your assertion seems to be "I can buy an HKA with range and my STR adds to it, so why can't I buy a Hand Attack with range and have my STR add to it". I suggest that no attack should have STR add to it. You buy each attack independently. You can't buy a Drain that STR adds to, a Mental Blast that EGO adds to or a Flash that's enhanced by your PRE. So why this one attack - HKA - that can be purchased in a manner that STR adds to it? It's inconsistent with the general rule. Ranged HA adds another such inconsistency. Rather than add more inconsistency, I prefer to remove the single inconsistency. HA becomes "STR for damage only". Removal of the other benefits of STR is set as a -1/4 limitation, and we're done. Blast, no Range is a -1/2 limitation, and is not augmented by your STR. Seems fair enough.

 

Further speculation:

 

All this is of course dependent on how much trouble it is worth for a particular campaign. Sure, 5 pts could represent 1 DC with no range, regardless of what it's built from, and it may be required to buy this aspect of STR separately from lifting capacity and STR Rolls, redesigning everything to a base of a single ability bought at a time, but that is not on my top 10 list at the moment.

 

Why is 5 points 1 DC with no range? Blast, RKA, Drain, Mental Blast and Flash are all 1 DC at range for 5 points, and can be Spread. STR gives you some added benefits, plus a DC that lacks range and cannot be Spread, for the same 5 points per DC. Maybe Hand Attack should be -1/2, thinking on it. An EB with No Range can still be Spread, but STR damage can't.

 

To an extent, that's true. But from another angle, the Strength-addition could be thought of as a virtual framework. For instance, if we had a character with a long-range Blast, a short-range Blast, and a melee Blast, they would probably have those in a Multipower and not be paying the full price three times. But someone with 60 STR and a Blast 12d6 for throwing things is paying the full price twice. The "Strength-adds" method is - point-wise - pretty similar to an EC:

 

30 Strong Guy (Elemental Control, 60 points)

30 Strength 60

30 Killing Attack 4d6

 

vs

 

60 Strength 60

30 HKA 2d6

 

Except we don't have EC's in 6e. In 6e, the build would be:

 

48 60 STR, Unified Power (-1/4)

34 4d6 KA, Unified Power (-1/4),No Range (-1/2)

 

Total cost 82 - cheaper than your EC example.

 

Actually... In 6E is there a downside to putting STR and a blast in a multipower? Moving STR out of characteristics doesn't lose you any figures.

 

I don't see the downside.

 

You can't Punch the agent holding a blaster on you while firing your Blast at the villain attacking your teammmate 20 meters away if they are in a multipower (unless you have enough of a pool to use both at full power, but then the MP isn't accomplishing much). You can if they are separate powers.

[torchwolf]

Re: Ranged HA - What so bad about it

 

Well, I could assert that this is because Hand to Hand Attack includes the "no range" limitation and you can't combine the "no range" limitation with the "ranged" advantage.

 

However, in my view, it is offensive because, in Hero, you get what you pay for. Having a higher STR should not get you a bigger Blast, nor should it get you a bigger HKA. Your assertion seems to be "I can buy an HKA with range and my STR adds to it, so why can't I buy a Hand Attack with range and have my STR add to it". I suggest that no attack should have STR add to it. You buy each attack independently. You can't buy a Drain that STR adds to, a Mental Blast that EGO adds to or a Flash that's enhanced by your PRE. So why this one attack - HKA - that can be purchased in a manner that STR adds to it? It's inconsistent with the general rule. Ranged HA adds another such inconsistency. Rather than add more inconsistency, I prefer to remove the single inconsistency. HA becomes "STR for damage only". Removal of the other benefits of STR is set as a -1/4 limitation, and we're done. Blast, no Range is a -1/2 limitation, and is not augmented by your STR. Seems fair enough.

That is exactly what I meant, only put much more clearly.

My suggestion for a reasonable compromise was to allow Range Based On STR, but not Ranged, for both HA and HKA, because those are more limited inconsistencies that are at least reasonable ways to build thrown knives, swords, clubs, or whatnot, by simply adding a small Advantage to a weapon that is probably built as a Focus. It breaks the logic of the rules slightly, but might be easier to handle than rebuilding all weapons as Blast or Killing Attack at a DC value corresponding to what you would get is STR had indeed been added to the DCs of the original build (HA or HKA). It can be done but may cause extra work that has limited benefit unless it is an issue in a campaign.

In a way, this is a similar issue to the Figured Characteristics inconsistencies vs usefulness argument.

 

Why is 5 points 1 DC with no range? Blast' date=' RKA, Drain, Mental Blast and Flash are all 1 DC at range for 5 points, and can be Spread. STR gives you some added benefits, plus a DC that lacks range and cannot be Spread, for the same 5 points per DC. Maybe Hand Attack should be -1/2, thinking on it. An EB with No Range can still be Spread, but STR damage can't.[/quote']

I may have expressed that somewhat foggily; I meant that back in 1981 the decision was probably that 1 DC should cost 5 points, and much of the other game mechanics built from that. Since the base 1 DC for 5 pts seems to have either of the Ranged or STR Adds To Damage benefits as of 6E, your observations of this are correct - it may be argued that a DC with no other aspect to it should cost 3 pts (similar to Dispel) and Ranged (+1/2) can be added to it. Going that far is purely theoretical speculation based on arbitrary assumption, but I guess the basis of any game system has to include a few arbitrary assumptions at base.

To stray even further OT, the alternative of subdividing STR further is actually not something I've seen in any other system, probably because lifting ability by itself would for example in the Hero System perhaps be costed at 1 STR of Lift per 0.2 to 0.5 pts, which causes other unwanted side effects because that is simply way too cheap.

All this was my long-winded way of saying: no, of course 5 points isn't 1 DC with no range, you are quite correct.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Ranged HA - What so bad about it

 

...But someone with 60 STR and a Blast 12d6 for throwing things is paying the full price twice.

 

Not necessarily.

 

You're argument hinges on the concept of the 'classic 12d6 hard cap'.

 

Hard caps are one of the primary causes of perceived problems like the one being discussed in this thread.

 

....from an old post of mine regarding Thor's Hammer:

 

(Note that there is no mechanical reason for the character to not have 18DC @ ranged and 30DC HTH attacks. It all comes down to player & GM agreement or 'soft cap'.)

 

Here's my quick & dirty take on building a 350 starting version of the character:

 

 

I Have A Hammer!

Val Char Cost Roll Notes

13/60 STR 3 12- / 21- Lift 151.6kg/102.4tons; 2 1/2d6/12d6 [1/3]

14/21 DEX 12 12- / 13- OCV: 5/7/DCV: 5/7

15/30 CON 10 12- / 15-

13 BODY 6 12-

13 INT 3 12- PER Roll 12-

15 EGO 10 12- ECV: 5

10/15 PRE 0 11- / 12- PRE Attack: 2d6/3d6

16 COM 3 12-

8/30 PD 5 Total: 8/30 PD (8/20 rPD)

8/30 ED 5 Total: 8/30 ED (8/20 rED)

4 SPD 16 Phases: 3, 6, 9, 12

6/18 REC 0

30/60 END 0

28/60 STUN 0

Total Characteristic Cost: 73

 

Movement:

Running: 6"/12"

Flight: 20"/40"

Leaping: 2"/4"

Swimming: 2"/4"

 

Cost Powers END

Asgardian Abilities, all slots Only In Heroic Identity (-1/4)

47 1) +47 STR, Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4) (59 Active Points) 2

12 2) +7 DEX (21 Active Points); No Figured Characteristics (-1/2)

24 3) +15 CON (30 Active Points)

4 4) +5 PRE (5 Active Points)

10 5) +13 PD (13 Active Points)

15 6) +19 ED (19 Active Points)

16 7) Damage Resistance (20 PD/20 ED) (20 Active Points)

33 8) Life Support (Eating: Character only has to eat once per week; Extended Breathing: 1 END per 20 Minutes; Immunity All terrestrial diseases and biowarfare agents; Immunity: All terrestrial poisons and chemical warfare agents; Longevity: Immortal; Safe Environment: Zero Gravity; Safe in High Pressure; Safe in High Radiation; Safe in Intense Cold; Safe in Intense Heat; Safe in Low Pressure/Vacuum; Sleeping: Character only has to sleep 8 hours per week) (41 Active Points)

 

51 The Hammer: Multipower, 90-point reserve, (90 Active Points); all slots Restrainable (-1/2), Only In Heroic Identity (-1/4)

4u 1) Swing!: Hand-To-Hand Attack +6d6, Variable Advantage (+1 Advantages; Examples: x2 KB, AP, Penetrating, AOE 1 Hex Accurate, Affects Desolidified, Reduced END, etc...; +2) (90 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2) 9

Notes: Can be combined with up to 30 STR.

5u 2) Throw!: Energy Blast 12d6, No Range Modifier (+1/2) (90 Active Points) 9

5u 3) Hammer Throw Movement: Flight 20", Costs END Only To Activate (+1/4), Variable Advantage (+1/2 Advantages; +1) (90 Active Points) 8

5u 4) Breaking Dimensional Barriers: Extra-Dimensional Movement (Any Dimension, Any Location), x8 Increased Weight, Safe Blind Travel (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4) (90 Active Points) 3

5u 5) Spinning Shield: Force Wall (18 PD/18 ED) (90 Active Points) 9

5u 6) Lightning!: Killing Attack - Ranged 4d6, Area Of Effect Accurate (One Hex; +1/2) (90 Active Points) 9

5u 7) Control Weather: Custom Power (Various ways to build this) (90 Active Points) 9

 

Perks

4 Reputation: It's Thor! (A large group) 11-, +2/+2d6

Talents

5 Rapid Healing

Skills

22 Various Skills: Custom Skill

 

Total Powers & Skill Cost: 277

Total Cost: 350

 

200+ Disadvantages

 

Total Disadvantage Points: 350

[Ice9]

Re: Ranged HA - What so bad about it

 

Ok, so using Blast is practical in the case that your HTH attack is otherwise having a large amount of variable advantages. That's fine for that case, but it's not always the situation. And how exactly does my argument hinge on a hard cap? Cap or no cap, you're still paying separately for the strength and blast, whereas if they were two energy beams in a multipower, you wouldn't be. Also, while there's no reason you can't have a HTH attack twice as strong as your ranged attack, it's often undesirable for what you're trying to represent, as well as not particularly useful in play.

 

 

Except we don't have EC's in 6e. In 6e, the build would be:

48 60 STR, Unified Power (-1/4)

34 4d6 KA, Unified Power (-1/4),No Range (-1/2)

Ok, but if anything, that seems to support my point. Unless you're saying HTH attacks should just be built that way (with the Unified limitation).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Ranged HA - What so bad about it

 

I sense that we are heading back to the "since STR adds to HKA with Ranged" argument.

 

I think the only reason the rules even allow Ranged to be added to a HKA is to model weapons that are thrown.

Has anyone ever used the combination for a build that didn't at least have a weapon sfx?

 

I raise this point because the thrown weapon sfx is the real argument here (more so than HA + Ranged).

Likewise, has anyone ever even attempted using a HA + Ranged combination for a build that didn't at least have a weapon sfx?

 

Note, that I am referring to 'weapon sfx' and not weapon as a Focus.

In the case of Thor's Hammer (one of the more famous 'thrown weapon sfx') it's clearly just sfx since there is little risk of him actually losing the hammer when thrown even in the early incarnations of the character (it could be restrained but rarely actually used by a foe).

 

Captain America's Shield (another famous 'thrown weapon sfx') is another good example for this thread.

(I've even modeled the shield here)

The Shield has clearly been shown to be used in both HTH & Ranged combat as well as for Killing and Normal damage.

However, I contend that the ability to throw the shield for normal damage has more to do with Cap's skill with using it (a separate multipower slot) than it does with any intrinsic property of the shield.

Sure, Hulk can throw it a lot harder than Cap and as a result do a lot more damage with the Ranged HKA.

But why does that seem to imply to folks that Hulk should be able to do more Normal Damage than Cap when throwing the shield?

It's a frisbee with a near razor's edge for crying out loud. It should be harder to do non-killing damage when throwing it.

Cap is using skill as much as raw force throwing it to do non-killing damage (much like 'Pulling a Punch').

[torchwolf]

Re: Ranged HA - What so bad about it

 

The basic question of this thread has already been answered in the FAQ years ago, as noted in this related thread: Why can't you buy HA ranged?

 

I sense that we are heading back to the "since STR adds to HKA with Ranged" argument.

That issue keeps returning, but I don't think it's necessarily an argument as much as a recurring discussion on the foundations of some element of the original game design.

Personally, I think that adding Ranged to HKA should probably be removed - while a Ranged HKA doesn't exactly create a rules conflict, it is breaking game elements the same way Ranged HA is.

An option is to use the unofficial and potentially game-breaking STR Adds To Damage (which seems to logically end up as a +1/2 by most people's considerations), but personally I think it sidesteps the issue and enters the iffy area of discussion about "Deconstruction and Reconstruction of Basic Hero System Building Blocks". Myself, I love discussing the subject, but I do not intend to apply it to my game, for several reasons:

1) The Hero System works very well as it is, and adjusting the values of basic attack abilities requires reevaluation of everything else, probably resulting in a lot of imbalances before everything is readjusted properly.

2) Given that Power Modifiers adjust the Active Points, altering the costs of Attack Powers easily causes magnified imbalances, especially if those values become lower than they currently are.

3) I have seen several (and myself experimented with) complete deconstruction of game elements, and it usually results in unwieldy balancing solutions, or at the very least, either extremely extensive lists of elements or extremely abstracted categories.

4) The Real World is not necessarily easily converted into minimal game elements. The Hero System has an amazingly good level of detail - while necessarily abstracting to a certain degree, that level of abstraction is an unusually well selected level useful for a game system (in this context, the Damage Classes and basic definitions of Blast and Killing Attack).

 

I think the only reason the rules even allow Ranged to be added to a HKA is to model weapons that are thrown.

Has anyone ever used the combination for a build that didn't at least have a weapon sfx?

 

I raise this point because the thrown weapon sfx is the real argument here (more so than HA + Ranged).

Likewise, has anyone ever even attempted using a HA + Ranged combination for a build that didn't at least have a weapon sfx?

 

Note, that I am referring to 'weapon sfx' and not weapon as a Focus.

In the case of Thor's Hammer (one of the more famous 'thrown weapon sfx') it's clearly just sfx since there is little risk of him actually losing the hammer when thrown even in the early incarnations of the character (it could be restrained but rarely actually used by a foe).

I do agree that the issue is mostly connected to weapon sfx, and think that is at the root of the issue. Characters such as Marvel's Marrow could be built that way, but would probably still be better off with an MP with HKA and RKA (and Unified Power in this character example).

 

Captain America's Shield (another famous 'thrown weapon sfx') is another good example for this thread.

(I've even modeled the shield here)

The Shield has clearly been shown to be used in both HTH & Ranged combat as well as for Killing and Normal damage.

However, I contend that the ability to throw the shield for normal damage has more to do with Cap's skill with using it (a separate multipower slot) than it does with any intrinsic property of the shield.

Sure, Hulk can throw it a lot harder than Cap and as a result do a lot more damage with the Ranged HKA.

 

But why does that seem to imply to folks that Hulk should be able to do more Normal Damage than Cap when throwing the shield?

It's a frisbee with a near razor's edge for crying out loud. It should be harder to do non-killing damage when throwing it.

Cap is using skill as much as raw force throwing it to do non-killing damage (much like 'Pulling a Punch').

The solution to this is actually in the FAQ, and repeated in the thread I linked to above.

Cap uses his shield as an MP, but it is probably a Personal Focus. In that case, Hulk is simply using the Improvised Weapons rules for throwing an object instead of being able to use the MP. If Hulk throws it like a discus, the shield will probably do Killing damage in equal DCs. Most would agree that Cap's shield is generally Unbreakable, but this is one case where there is good reason to assign a Focus a certain PD/ED/BODY for the explicit purpose of throwing it.

 

That is how I would do it anyway. This discussion has if nothing else caused me to yet again reconsider both old and new angles - good reasons for having discussions.

[JmOz]

Re: Ranged HA - What so bad about it

 

It is interesting to note that the language has been softend a bit from 5th, this is the current text from 6th on the issue

 

Ranged: A character may not apply the Advantage Ranged to an HA (except possibly when building throwable HTH Combat weapons in Heroic campaigns). To build such an attack, use Blast with the Range Based On Strength Limitation (and other Limitations, as appropriate), or buy the weapon as a normal HTH Combat weapon and use the Throw Combat Maneuver to inflict damage with it as a thrown object.

 

Now wether or not as a gm you want to open this up to other games is up to you, but I do feel that it is a step in the right direction

[Checkmate]

Re: Ranged HA - What so bad about it

 

KA is not a 10 point power with a mandatory +1/2 advantage, it just looks that way in a certain light. It is a set of two base powers that can be made to operate like each other because you CAN, I believe, add 'STR adds damage' to a RKA' or 'ranged' to a HKA'.

 

So, working on the same theoretic premise that normal attacks are 1/3 the cost of killing attacks per 1d6, 'normal damage' LOOKS LIKE, but isn't, a 3.3333 point power with a mandatory +1/2 advantage (that .333 is important here, otherwise rounding gets you 1d6 for 4 points) , you derive two 'base' powers, each 5 points:

 

Normal HtH damage (does damage, adds more damage from STR) AND

 

Normal ranged damage (does damage, at range, often called 'Blast' or 'Energy Blast')

 

You should then be able to add 'STR adds damage' to a RKA' or 'ranged' to a HKA' to them as you see fit.

 

So, looked at that way, the problem is that we have a limitation 'HtH damage', or looked at another way, STR is STILL too cheap, even with figured characterstics gone.

 

So, there's your problem right there: whilst we accept that Blast should cost 5 points per 1d6, and we like the RKA/HKA interchangeability, we are loathe to pay 5 points for 1d6 of HtH normal damage when, for that same 5 points we can get +5 STR, or for 4 points we can get +1d6 damage on martial arts that does not cost END.

 

You're not going to solve it because yo're not going to up the cost of Strength to somewhere between 1.25 and 2 points per point. In a completely ideal world we'd just build to concept and hang the cost, but until that ideal world happens, if you want a solution, get rid of the mandatory limitation for HtH damage and allow 'ranged' to be used as an advantage, or allow 'STR adds damage' on 'Blast'.

 

Go in peace and seasonal greetings.

Everyone should really re-read the quoted post. It pretty much puts the whole debate to rest in my mind.

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: Ranged HA - What so bad about it

 

o

KA is not a 10 point power with a mandatory +1/2 advantage, it just looks that way in a certain light. It is a set of two base powers that can be made to operate like each other because you CAN, I believe, add 'STR adds damage' to a RKA' or 'ranged' to a HKA'.

 

So, working on the same theoretic premise that normal attacks are 1/3 the cost of killing attacks per 1d6, 'normal damage' LOOKS LIKE, but isn't, a 3.3333 point power with a mandatory +1/2 advantage (that .333 is important here, otherwise rounding gets you 1d6 for 4 points) , you derive two 'base' powers, each 5 points:

 

Normal HtH damage (does damage, adds more damage from STR) AND

 

Normal ranged damage (does damage, at range, often called 'Blast' or 'Energy Blast')

 

You should then be able to add 'STR adds damage' to a RKA' or 'ranged' to a HKA' to them as you see fit.

 

So, looked at that way, the problem is that we have a limitation 'HtH damage', or looked at another way, STR is STILL too cheap, even with figured characterstics gone.

 

So, there's your problem right there: whilst we accept that Blast should cost 5 points per 1d6, and we like the RKA/HKA interchangeability, we are loathe to pay 5 points for 1d6 of HtH normal damage when, for that same 5 points we can get +5 STR, or for 4 points we can get +1d6 damage on martial arts that does not cost END.

 

You're not going to solve it because yo're not going to up the cost of Strength to somewhere between 1.25 and 2 points per point. In a completely ideal world we'd just build to concept and hang the cost, but until that ideal world happens, if you want a solution, get rid of the mandatory limitation for HtH damage and allow 'ranged' to be used as an advantage, or allow 'STR adds damage' on 'Blast'.

 

Go in peace and seasonal greetings.

 

Perhaps costing all of the CHARs that have rolls at 2 points would fix both the problem of STR still being too cheap and DEX being twice as expensive as the other CHARs, of course it would mean that there would be less points to spend, and it would be unfair to EGO if one isn't houseruling EGO to defend against PRE attacks.

[Checkmate]

Re: Ranged HA - What so bad about it

 

o

 

Perhaps costing all of the CHARs that have rolls at 2 points would fix both the problem of STR still being too cheap and DEX being twice as expensive as the other CHARs, of course it would mean that there would be less points to spend, and it would be unfair to EGO if one isn't houseruling EGO to defend against PRE attacks.

Some of us have been saying STR should cost 2 CP for YEARS.

[casualplayer]

Re: Ranged HA - What so bad about it

 

Power Advantage: Aggregate: Aggregate allows you to add Damage Classes from any power with Aggregate to any Damage Classes of another power bought with Aggregate. I'm thinking +1/4 and increases the END Cost of the power/characteristic applied to.

 

This is one of the few meta glitches I was hoping 6th would address and didn't.

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: Ranged HA - What so bad about it

 

Some of us have been saying STR should cost 2 CP for YEARS.

 

Yes, but this is the first time that it occurred to me that STR still needed to cost 2 cp even without figureds.

[JmOz]

Re: Ranged HA - What so bad about it

 

had a power build occur to me last night, and while I can not see why it would not be book legal, I doubt very much and seasoned GM Would allow it. I might include it in my UT Belt builds however

 

11 +30 Str (-1 only for throwing things) -1/2 OIF, -1/4 6 recoverable charges

 

or

 

11 +25 Str (-1 only for throwing things) -1/2 OIF, -1/4 6 recoverable charges linked to +4 OCV vs Throwing penalties 1/2 OIF, -1/4 6 recoverable charges (linked)

 

You use the focus in question (Or the charge on the focus to be 100% F/x accurate) as a object of opportunity to throw

 

Both of these should be "legal" enough, you make the Foci tougher than normal (can't remember what it is called) and use the throwing rules, all of a sudden you have a rules legal attack that is doing as much damage as a HA.

 

Stick them both in a MP, and you will actualy save a couple points from putting the no no advantage on to a HA....