Ranged HA - What so bad about it

[dsatow]

OK, here's a question to all those here in the forum?

 

Why do you think ranged HA would be bad or distasteful?

 

Personally I can't see a reason why putting ranged on HtHA is bad and I know several people do feel its bad, but honestly given the changes in 6th Ed I just don't see why. In 5th, it was arguably less abusive than say HKA with Ranged on it, a perfectly legal combination.

 

So people of the forum, give me your reasons, why is putting ranged on HA bad?

 

Note: I will not accept, "because you can do it this other way." as a reason it's bad. Also any reason you give me will have to stand up against why is it bad but Ranged HKA is good.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Ranged HA - What so bad about it

 

I've heard it mentioned before on multiple occasions that both HKA and RKA actually operate as if there were a 'base killing attack power' that costs 10 points per d6 that neither has Range nor gets increased damage from STR. That's the key of the hidden HTH/Ranged KA symmetry.

 

The symmetry for HA (as well as STR, since HA is just Limited STR) is EB.

[incrdbil]

Re: Ranged HA - What so bad about it

 

If you want to do ranged normal damage, you buy blast. What is there to discuss?

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Ranged HA - What so bad about it

 

The reason is convoluted but here goes.

 

You used to be able to by STR Ranged. This was considered bad/distasteful because it was dirt cheap. You not only got STR and all the benefits of STR (secondary characteristics as well as lifting heavy objects) AND you got Telekinesis. This was not play balanced.

 

I think most of the complaints on using HtH Ranged stems from this. Since HtH is basically STR with a limitation.

[torchwolf]

Re: Ranged HA - What so bad about it

 

OK, here's a question to all those here in the forum?

 

Why do you think ranged HA would be bad or distasteful?

 

Personally I can't see a reason why putting ranged on HtHA is bad and I know several people do feel its bad, but honestly given the changes in 6th Ed I just don't see why. In 5th, it was arguably less abusive than say HKA with Ranged on it, a perfectly legal combination.

 

So people of the forum, give me your reasons, why is putting ranged on HA bad?

 

Note: I will not accept, "because you can do it this other way." as a reason it's bad. Also any reason you give me will have to stand up against why is it bad but Ranged HKA is good.

One reason is the mandatory Hand-To-Hand Attack Limitation (-1/4)(6E1 p231). Adding Ranged would require you to remove this. If you remove that Limitation it works better, but then you have basically a Blast that has STR adding, which does not balance well.

Killing Attack (HTH) is not bought the same way, and thus is more acceptable as is. Using that logic, either Ranged or STR Adds To Damage is apparently worth the same for a KA, so applying the STR Adds To Damage would be a +1/2 Advantage.

The preferred way to do a ranged attack with normal damage would be a Blast, so:

Blast, STR Adds To Damage (+1/2) might work better than the similarly priced (after removing the HTH Limitation)

[HTH] Attack, Ranged (+1/2)

 

It's up to the individual GM how to build a thrown club or whatnot, of course.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Ranged HA - What so bad about it

 

I was wondering whether the HtH attack limitation might allow range limited by STR.

 

There is a disconnect between normal and killing attacks and how we deal with whether they are ranged or HtH. In a system like HERO there should be a consistency of approach and mechanics that currently does not exist.

 

If you can purchase ranged on a HKA that allows you to add STR to damage then why not the same for a normal attack? If a thrown weapon is built as a normal attack does that mean it cannot benefit from being wielded by someone stronger?

 

IMO, I would be willing to allow the HtH attack limitation to extend to STR limited range if that made sense in game.

 

Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Ranged HA - What so bad about it

 

I was wondering whether the HtH attack limitation might allow range limited by STR.

 

There is a disconnect between normal and killing attacks and how we deal with whether they are ranged or HtH. In a system like HERO there should be a consistency of approach and mechanics that currently does not exist.

 

If you can purchase ranged on a HKA that allows you to add STR to damage then why not the same for a normal attack? If a thrown weapon is built as a normal attack does that mean it cannot benefit from being wielded by someone stronger?

 

To rephrase the question, If you cannot purchase ranged on a normal attack that allows you to add STR to damage then why not the same restriction for a killing attack?

 

As you say, the system should have a consistency of approach and mechanics which currently does not exist. However, it seems to me that the odd man out is the HKA. The HTH attack is the addition of STR, limited to only do damage. The analogous Blast is additional Blast which cannot be Spread.

 

The HKA is the only attack in the game which can be enhanced by a compl;etely different Power. Perhaps that orphan mechanic should go in favour of +Xd6 HKA, reduces STR available for other uses, most notably MPA, by equivalent points. Note that, by the book, a 60 STR character with a 4d6 HKA should be able to MPA a 12d6 STR srike and an 8d6 HKA. [by 6e rules, he could buy 4 1 DC HKA's, and MPA 4 4d6+1 HKA's with a 12d6 STR strike.]

 

With that change, you get what you pay for. At present, what you get for 3d6 HKA depends on what you have purchased for STR. What other attack power varies in DC's depending on what you spent for a different attack power?

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Ranged HA - What so bad about it

 

To rephrase the question, If you cannot purchase ranged on a normal attack that allows you to add STR to damage then why not the same restriction for a killing attack?

 

As you say, the system should have a consistency of approach and mechanics which currently does not exist. However, it seems to me that the odd man out is the HKA. The HTH attack is the addition of STR, limited to only do damage. The analogous Blast is additional Blast which cannot be Spread.

 

The HKA is the only attack in the game which can be enhanced by a compl;etely different Power. Perhaps that orphan mechanic should go in favour of +Xd6 HKA, reduces STR available for other uses, most notably MPA, by equivalent points. Note that, by the book, a 60 STR character with a 4d6 HKA should be able to MPA a 12d6 STR srike and an 8d6 HKA. [by 6e rules, he could buy 4 1 DC HKA's, and MPA 4 4d6+1 HKA's with a 12d6 STR strike.]

 

With that change, you get what you pay for. At present, what you get for 3d6 HKA depends on what you have purchased for STR. What other attack power varies in DC's depending on what you spent for a different attack power?

 

I am all for this approach. If you want additional damage for your weapon because you are strong then buy it that way. Again it removes the mechanics from 'the way things work in the real world' but that is not how things are made in HERO. They are modelled in detail for what we want and that is often contrary to how things work in the real world.

 

:-)

 

Doc

[ghost-angel]

Re: Ranged HA - What so bad about it

 

Hand To Hand Attack is based off of STR, is the Limitation were worded as STR; Only To Do Damage there would be less of an issue involved I think.

 

The argument that you should buy Blast if you want to do Ranged Normal Damage fails when you want a stronger character to throw things harder than a weaker character... it fails miserably when you realize that the "correct" way to do that is to buy the Blast at the highest increment and start limiting it creating a really weird convoluted build instead of: HA; Ranged.

[JmOz]

Re: Ranged HA - What so bad about it

 

Funny thing I was thinking about this the other day and noticed something

 

(I know there are other rules issues with this, spesificaly about how multipowers add to other multipowers, but looking at point cost here instead of legality)

 

If you put a blast power and HA in a MP you get

 

30 point "applied Strength" MP

2u +6d6 HA (-1/4 lim)

2u +6d6 Blast (-1/4 Range based on Str)

---

comes to 34 points, no limitations would be 36

 

With Ranged based on Strength applied to a 6d6 HA it would cost 37 points, so the 100% percent rules legal way (assuming you are not adding the powers to other powers that exist in a MP) actualy saves 3 points...Skill level with applied strength maybe

[torchwolf]

Re: Ranged HA - What so bad about it

 

Hand To Hand Attack is based off of STR, is the Limitation were worded as STR; Only To Do Damage there would be less of an issue involved I think.

 

The argument that you should buy Blast if you want to do Ranged Normal Damage fails when you want a stronger character to throw things harder than a weaker character... it fails miserably when you realize that the "correct" way to do that is to buy the Blast at the highest increment and start limiting it creating a really weird convoluted build instead of: HA; Ranged.

True. I didn't take my argument far enough to include this aspect. The description of the HTH Attack Limitation is probably what works easiest unless you break it down this far, though.

In that case, shouldn't HA Ranged be calculated as STR, Ranged (+1/2), Only To Do Damage (-1/4)?

That would result in different Active Points and Real Points than if Ranged is applied to HA straight.

 

My personal preference however would be to allow this only for Range Based On STR ranged HAs, otherwise I would suggest using Blast.

 

To rephrase the question, If you cannot purchase ranged on a normal attack that allows you to add STR to damage then why not the same restriction for a killing attack?

 

As you say, the system should have a consistency of approach and mechanics which currently does not exist. However, it seems to me that the odd man out is the HKA. The HTH attack is the addition of STR, limited to only do damage. The analogous Blast is additional Blast which cannot be Spread.

 

The HKA is the only attack in the game which can be enhanced by a compl;etely different Power. Perhaps that orphan mechanic should go in favour of +Xd6 HKA, reduces STR available for other uses, most notably MPA, by equivalent points. Note that, by the book, a 60 STR character with a 4d6 HKA should be able to MPA a 12d6 STR srike and an 8d6 HKA. [by 6e rules, he could buy 4 1 DC HKA's, and MPA 4 4d6+1 HKA's with a 12d6 STR strike.]

I am so still going to use the (now optional) rule about the max of doubling. Why it is no longer the default is beyond me.

With that change' date=' you get what you pay for. At present, what you get for 3d6 HKA depends on what you have purchased for STR. What other attack power varies in DC's depending on what you spent for a different attack power?[/quote']

Treating KAs as a damage-causing construct similar to STR, it could be argued that HKA is actually also based off STR, with the Does Killing Damage (+2) Advantage. Applying Ranged (+1/2) to this would result in a cost of 17.5 pts per 3 DCs of RKA with STR adding, and STR Does Not Add To Damage (-1/2), for a cost of 17.5 active and 11.67 pts real cost, per 3 DCs of RKA.

Treating KAs as a single distinct construct: I think both KAs have been described in some relatively recent discussion as having either of the two options Ranged or STR Adds To Damage, but not both. It would mean that the values for Ranged and STR Adds To Damage are similar in cost for the benefit in that case. In that case: HKA, Ranged (+1/2), STR Does Not Add To Damage (-1/2), for a cost of 22.5 active and 15 pts real cost, per 3 DCs of RKA (I know it wasn't exactly necessary to write up the point cost for this structure, just wanted to be clear).

The second structure (while as wildly speculative as the first one) seem to imply that STR Adds To Damage should have a value of (+1/2).

 

I'm disregarding whether a HA can have Ranged here for the sake of arguing how the cost structure should look. My thought was:

Treating HA (damage being the most important aspect of what you can use STR for anyway) as damage with no range with STR adding, and

Treating Blast as damage at range but without STR adding,

there are similar cost structures in place for both the KA pairs and the Blast/HA pair - Killing and Normal damage with or without range, that is.

 

If you build a ranged HA as STR, Ranged (+1/2), Only To Do Damage (-1/4) it might have an exact cost, or it might not, depending on how you view the basis of damage.

 

The descriptions chosen to represent the basis of damage structures might seem illogical when applying different Power Modifiers, but that might not be very important in this case.

 

In either case, I agree very much that adding damage from STR should be equal to Lockout.

Come to think of it, the Lockout Limitation or a similar one of about equal value could be included in this analysis of the breakdown.

I am all for this approach. If you want additional damage for your weapon because you are strong then buy it that way. Again it removes the mechanics from 'the way things work in the real world' but that is not how things are made in HERO. They are modelled in detail for what we want and that is often contrary to how things work in the real world.

 

:-)

 

Doc

The important thing is that it works, but that has never stopped anyone from having theoretical speculations (as opposed to real speculations).

 

My logic may be flawed in these examples, as I'm more of less just speculating here, but the subject is interesting.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Ranged HA - What so bad about it

 

I am so still going to use the (now optional) rule about the max of doubling. Why it is no longer the default is beyond me.

 

Because it caused more problems than it solved. HA had no doubling rule, you could add +3D6HA to 55STR per RAW, but not +1D6HKA.

 

There were two options to unify the damage adding rules:

-Define Base Attacks, and that they can never be more than double. Which would create a complicated mess of "This is the Base unless this happens," type stuff when you start to involve Advantages, Maneuvers, etc and so on.

-Remove the doubling rule and let the GM police his own game. Which puts the power in the hands of the Group and not the System, allowing for a more open Toolkit.

 

Option two is, to me, the obvious choice.

[dsatow]

Re: Ranged HA - What so bad about it

 

OK, I wouldn't have a problem if they removed the ability to put ranged on HKA but I doubt that will occur due to all medieval weaponry based on it.

 

As for cost associations, I still don't see a correlation. For 15 active, you get 3 DC in either HA or HKA. It used to be the HKA, active point per point was more effective due to the stun lottery, but thats no longer the case.

 

My personal feeling and I believe to be more robust solution is to remove HA all together and just use Blast with as a person said, +1/2 adv to add strength. In the same vein, RKA and HKA would go away and just become KA which you can add ranged or add strength advantages. Its clean and logical and fits in with some of the changes they did for 6th with things such as Barrier.

[torchwolf]

Re: Ranged HA - What so bad about it

 

Because it caused more problems than it solved. HA had no doubling rule, you could add +3D6HA to 55STR per RAW, but not +1D6HKA.

 

There were two options to unify the damage adding rules:

-Define Base Attacks, and that they can never be more than double. Which would create a complicated mess of "This is the Base unless this happens," type stuff when you start to involve Advantages, Maneuvers, etc and so on.

-Remove the doubling rule and let the GM police his own game. Which puts the power in the hands of the Group and not the System, allowing for a more open Toolkit.

 

Option two is, to me, the obvious choice.

I know the toolkitting box 6E2 p99 brings it up, even as a thing the GM might want to consider, and it also gives a few definitions of base attacks, but allow me to rephrase my earlier comment:

"Personally, I think this possible issue should be emphasized even stronger, for the benefit of newcomers to the Hero System".

[JmOz]

Re: Ranged HA - What so bad about it

 

Because it caused more problems than it solved. HA had no doubling rule, you could add +3D6HA to 55STR per RAW, but not +1D6HKA.

 

There were two options to unify the damage adding rules:

-Define Base Attacks, and that they can never be more than double. Which would create a complicated mess of "This is the Base unless this happens," type stuff when you start to involve Advantages, Maneuvers, etc and so on.

-Remove the doubling rule and let the GM police his own game. Which puts the power in the hands of the Group and not the System, allowing for a more open Toolkit.

 

Option two is, to me, the obvious choice.

 

Which begs a question in my opinion, considering the topic of the thread:

 

Why was the same mentality of opening up the system by allowing the GM to police his or her own game not applied to allowing Range to be applied to HA? Personaly I think it should probably default to not allow, but include a toolkit option about it, consider that it is probably no more abusive than allowing RP to be used in a MP

[Ice9]

Re: Ranged HA - What so bad about it

 

I was thinking about this, and while personally I would just allow it (because Ranged HKA is ok), there is a rules legal way to achieve the same effect.

 

HA +Xd6, AoE (32m Line, Accurate; +3/4), Limited Power (Must hit target, not just area; -1/2)

Slightly higher AP than Ranged, but lower total cost due to the limitation. If you want to throw it farther, the range doubles for every +1/4.

[dsatow]

Re: Ranged HA - What so bad about it

 

Because it caused more problems than it solved. HA had no doubling rule, you could add +3D6HA to 55STR per RAW, but not +1D6HKA.

 

There were two options to unify the damage adding rules:

-Define Base Attacks, and that they can never be more than double. Which would create a complicated mess of "This is the Base unless this happens," type stuff when you start to involve Advantages, Maneuvers, etc and so on.

-Remove the doubling rule and let the GM police his own game. Which puts the power in the hands of the Group and not the System, allowing for a more open Toolkit.

 

Option two is, to me, the obvious choice.

 

HA did have a doubling rule in Fred, but it also noted that most GMs ignored this rule.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Ranged HA - What so bad about it

 

Hand To Hand Attack is based off of STR, is the Limitation were worded as STR; Only To Do Damage there would be less of an issue involved I think.

 

The argument that you should buy Blast if you want to do Ranged Normal Damage fails when you want a stronger character to throw things harder than a weaker character... it fails miserably when you realize that the "correct" way to do that is to buy the Blast at the highest increment and start limiting it creating a really weird convoluted build instead of: HA; Ranged.

 

While agree with your suggestion about the HA description I disagree about higher STR necessarily equating to to harder throws. Baseball pitchers and football QB's being prime examples, they aren't necessarily the strongest members of their respective teams but they usually can throw their sports' balls the hardest. A martial arts-like skill is certainly one way to model aspects of this but it's usually easier to start with EB if working in a supers game at least.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Ranged HA - What so bad about it

 

I forget where I first saw it but someone on the board once gave an alternative breakdown of Normal Damage methods for Hero very similar to the 10 point 'base killing attack' (which then assigned Ranged or STR Adds Damage).

 

For Normal Damage, this base cost would be ~ 3 points per d6 and it then gets the following potential (+1/2) Advantages: Can be used as STR (current STR), Ranged (current EB), Advantages stack with STR* (current HA) and the combo of Can be used as STR & Ranged (current TK).

 

*This is pure speculation on my part but it's the best I can come up with to explain the minimum 5 active cost per d6 for this version.

 

Note, if this was RAW then you end up with the potential to build a Normal Attack with Advantages stack w/STR & Ranged for ~ 6-7 points per d6 which is just too effect for both the real as well as active points.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Ranged HA - What so bad about it

 

OK, I wouldn't have a problem if they removed the ability to put ranged on HKA but I doubt that will occur due to all medieval weaponry based on it.

 

As for cost associations, I still don't see a correlation. For 15 active, you get 3 DC in either HA or HKA. It used to be the HKA, active point per point was more effective due to the stun lottery, but thats no longer the case.

 

My personal feeling and I believe to be more robust solution is to remove HA all together and just use Blast with as a person said, +1/2 adv to add strength.

 

As a more extreme measure, what about making every attack Ranged by default (so we get the same AP and base costs we currently have for most attacks; HKA disappears) and allow +1/2 "STR Adds" for every attack power? A Drain or Supress could be based on muscle power, and a flash can be an Eye Poke or an Ear Box. The SFX in question don't sit right with you? Then don't allow it. But now the rule is consistent for every type of atack.

 

Next step: "adds damage from alternative characteristic".

 

To the question of capping at double base damage, why? If I have a 45 STR and a 1d6 HKA, why should my damage be different than if I have a 15 STR and a 3d6 HKA? Both total 60 AP. If we accept that STR is not unbalanced by being allowed to enhance attacks, what is the magic of stopping at double damage? Why not "you can only ad 50%" or you can triple damage"?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Ranged HA - What so bad about it

 

KA is not a 10 point power with a mandatory +1/2 advantage, it just looks that way in a certain light. It is a set of two base powers that can be made to operate like each other because you CAN, I believe, add 'STR adds damage' to a RKA' or 'ranged' to a HKA'.

 

So, working on the same theoretic premise that normal attacks are 1/3 the cost of killing attacks per 1d6, 'normal damage' LOOKS LIKE, but isn't, a 3.3333 point power with a mandatory +1/2 advantage (that .333 is important here, otherwise rounding gets you 1d6 for 4 points) , you derive two 'base' powers, each 5 points:

 

Normal HtH damage (does damage, adds more damage from STR) AND

 

Normal ranged damage (does damage, at range, often called 'Blast' or 'Energy Blast')

 

You should then be able to add 'STR adds damage' to a RKA' or 'ranged' to a HKA' to them as you see fit.

 

So, looked at that way, the problem is that we have a limitation 'HtH damage', or looked at another way, STR is STILL too cheap, even with figured characterstics gone.

 

So, there's your problem right there: whilst we accept that Blast should cost 5 points per 1d6, and we like the RKA/HKA interchangeability, we are loathe to pay 5 points for 1d6 of HtH normal damage when, for that same 5 points we can get +5 STR, or for 4 points we can get +1d6 damage on martial arts that does not cost END.

 

You're not going to solve it because yo're not going to up the cost of Strength to somewhere between 1.25 and 2 points per point. In a completely ideal world we'd just build to concept and hang the cost, but until that ideal world happens, if you want a solution, get rid of the mandatory limitation for HtH damage and allow 'ranged' to be used as an advantage, or allow 'STR adds damage' on 'Blast'.

 

Go in peace and seasonal greetings.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Ranged HA - What so bad about it

 

Let me add a wrinkle that we do not do in HERO, is probably too complex administratively but may address cost issues.

 

We have a power whose absolute effect can be doubled (or more) by the use of a second power (characteristic). The problem is that advantaging the first power does not consider the impact of the characteristic. Why not require an advantage on the characteristic that allows it to be used to add to the power?

 

This would be like a meta-rule and if someone has STR that is going to be used to add to weapon damage, or PRE that is going to add to Mind Control (I'm making that one up but it fits the profile) then both the power and the characteristic should be appropriately advantaged.

 

Doc

[dmjalund]

Re: Ranged HA - What so bad about it

 

how bout we buy it as the appropriate KA with a limitation (Does Normal Damage)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Ranged HA - What so bad about it

 

Let me add a wrinkle that we do not do in HERO, is probably too complex administratively but may address cost issues.

 

We have a power whose absolute effect can be doubled (or more) by the use of a second power (characteristic). The problem is that advantaging the first power does not consider the impact of the characteristic. Why not require an advantage on the characteristic that allows it to be used to add to the power?

 

This would be like a meta-rule and if someone has STR that is going to be used to add to weapon damage, or PRE that is going to add to Mind Control (I'm making that one up but it fits the profile) then both the power and the characteristic should be appropriately advantaged.

 

What is "appropriately advantaged"? To me, there is no compelling reason that the cost of doing, say, 4d6 of Killing Damage should be priced differently depending on how you buy it. Now, if it locks out STR, or is drained at the same rate as STR, that merits a limitation on the killing damage. But that's no different than buying an extra 6 DC's for all my Mental Powers on the basis my 30 EGO adds 30 AP to them, then slapping a limitation on those extra dice that they are all affected by any negative adjustment power that reduces my EGO.

 

So how would this apply to the killing attack? Simple. HKA goes. We keep RKA, but it's now "killing attack" and ranged by default (we don't have HTH Drain or HTH Flash either...). You want claws that do 2d6 KA + 2d6 for your 30 STR? Well, that's 2d6 KA - No Range (-1/2), plus 2d6 KA - No Range, drained with STR (-1/4) cannot MPA with STR (-1/4 - generous). Total AP60, total real cost 20 + 15 = 35.

[Matt Holck]

Re: Ranged HA - What so bad about it

 

-Define Base Attacks, and that they can never be more than double. Which would create a complicated mess of "This is the Base unless this happens," type stuff when you start to involve Advantages, Maneuvers, etc and so on.

-Remove the doubling rule and let the GM police his own game. Which puts the power in the hands of the Group and not the System, allowing for a more open Toolkit.

 

option 1

I want to police as little as possible