Narf the Mouse Posted December 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 25, 2009 Re: A couple of brain cells connected... Thanks. "Firethrower"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulcan Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Re: A couple of brain cells connected... Then how can magic be taught? In most fantasy stories I have seen, there is some sort of prerequisite for a person to use magic directly. Call it a 'magical talent' without which all the magic instruction in the world is so much gobbeltygook. It doesn't appear as much in fantasy games because of the general desire of the game designers to allow players maximum choice in their characters - in short, if the player wants to play a mage, his character is assumed to have the talent (which often goes unstated). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulcan Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Re: A couple of brain cells connected... Except for that stuff Saurman had.... Nothing in the book or in the movie says that the bomb used at Helm's Deep was made with gunpowder. In fact, given the magnitude of the explosion in the movie, it would have to be something a bit more powerful than gunpowder. A bound explosive spell set to detonate at a specific point would explain it nicely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susano Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Re: A couple of brain cells connected... Nothing in the book or in the movie says that the bomb used at Helm's Deep was made with gunpowder. In fact, given the magnitude of the explosion in the movie, it would have to be something a bit more powerful than gunpowder. A bound explosive spell set to detonate at a specific point would explain it nicely. The term gunpowder is never used in the movie... but Saurman's pushing away of Grima's candle, the look of the fine black grains, and the way it was detonated seems to indicate a physical explosive and not a spell (especially since that sort of magic seems out of place in Middle Earth). On the other hand, some form of alchemical mixture I'll buy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narf the Mouse Posted December 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Re: A couple of brain cells connected... The term gunpowder is never used in the movie... but Saurman's pushing away of Grima's candle' date=' the look of the fine black grains, and the way it was detonated seems to indicate a physical explosive and not a spell (especially since that sort of magic seems out of place in Middle Earth). On the other hand, some form of alchemical mixture I'll buy.[/quote'] Gunpowder plus some magic to make a bigger boom makes sense to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susano Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Re: A couple of brain cells connected... Gunpowder plus some magic to make a bigger boom makes sense to me. Actually, since fireworks are known in Middle Earth (Gandalf makes them), it doesn't seem all that far-fetched that Saurman was able to create a superior form of gunpowder/blasting powder/explosive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narf the Mouse Posted December 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Re: A couple of brain cells connected... Actually' date=' since fireworks are known in Middle Earth (Gandalf makes them), it doesn't seem all that far-fetched that Saurman was able to create a superior form of gunpowder/blasting powder/explosive.[/quote'] Yep - And Saruman was a wizard. So magic is probably the method he chose. A form of alchemy makes sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Re: A couple of brain cells connected... Alchemy is a good copout in a lot of ways. Magic and technology blurred into a nice little pseudo-science. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toadmaster Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Re: A couple of brain cells connected... Warhammer combines magic and gunpowder fairly well. Dwarves are masters of technology, steam power and gunpowder essentially being their magic. Nothing to say technology and science can't be veiled in the same secrecy of mages guilds. It really isn't hard to balance firearms and muscle powered missile weapons. Matchlocks (1300-1400) required a continually burning wick, and had reliability problems (damp powder being the number 1 problem), Wheel locks (1500-1600) did away with the slow burning wick, but were very expensive, complicated, temperamental, and unreliable. Flintlocks (1600-1800) came along, which lowered the cost and complexity, but didn't do much to improve reliability. Because of the need to have loose powder in the priming hole they worked best from a prepared position, despite the idea that people could have a couple of pistols ready to go jammed into their belt, that wasn't really practical until the percussion cap came along in 1825. If you have Civil War era firearms (percussion cap) or even US Revolutionary war era firearms (flintlock) all tech has probably advanced beyond what most consider traditional fantasy, although who is to say it wouldn't be fun to play in an 1880's fantasy world, I think I'd have fun playing the dwarf with no name (insert Ennio Morricone music). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susano Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Re: A couple of brain cells connected... ' date=' I think I'd have fun playing the dwarf with no name (insert Ennio Morricone music).[/quote'] Waaaanh, waaahh, waaahhhh.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSgt Baloo Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Re: A couple of brain cells connected... "It's a Uwe Boll movie" usually says everything you need. I actually watched one of those last night. If the King wasn't played by Burt Reynolds, he has a long-lost twin somewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted December 29, 2009 Report Share Posted December 29, 2009 Re: A couple of brain cells connected... Burt actually made a surprisingly good king despite the almost intentionally bad script. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSgt Baloo Posted December 29, 2009 Report Share Posted December 29, 2009 Re: A couple of brain cells connected... A few more relevant wikipedia links: Fire Lance Early Thermal Weapons Gunpowder Warfare Greek Fire Grenade ETA: The Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markdoc Posted January 4, 2010 Report Share Posted January 4, 2010 Re: A couple of brain cells connected... It really isn't hard to balance firearms and muscle powered missile weapons. Matchlocks (1300-1400) required a continually burning wick' date=' and had reliability problems (damp powder being the number 1 problem), Wheel locks (1500-1600) did away with the slow burning wick, but were very expensive, complicated, temperamental, and unreliable. Flintlocks (1600-1800) came along, which lowered the cost and complexity, but didn't do much to improve reliability.[/quote'] Nitpick: the first Flintlocks (called Snaphaunces) date back to the mid-early 1500's - last week I saw one which was used by the Hospitallers in their defence of Malta vs the Turks, though most of the guns on display were wheel-locks. Cheers, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSgt Baloo Posted January 5, 2010 Report Share Posted January 5, 2010 Re: A couple of brain cells connected... Nitpick: the first Flintlocks (called Snaphaunces) date back to the mid-early 1500's - last week I saw one which was used by the Hospitallers in their defence of Malta vs the Turks, though most of the guns on display were wheel-locks. Cheers, Mark Your point is valid, but nit-picky details like that don't appeal to anyone but gun-geeks like you and me. The snaphaunce was an early form of what became the flintlock, and the difference between the two lies mostly in construction details rather than operating principles. Relevant links: Web article: Period Firearms Web article: Snaphaunce Weapons Wikipedia article: Snaplock Wikipedia article: Miquelet Wikipedia article: Snaphance Wikipedia article: Doglock Wikipedia article: Flintlock In general, there are three methods of ignition prior to the invention of percussion ignition: You light the powder charge with a smoldering wick (match). You light the powder charge with a mechanism that has to be wound with a key and strikes sparks from a mineral (iron pyrite) when the striker wheel turns. You light the powder charge with sparks struck from a flint against a rough surface. For most people, that's all the complexity they need (at least when creating firearms for a fantasy campaign). Of course, magical "gunpowder substitutes" might have different means of actuation. Maybe there's a small speaker-tube on the weapon so the shooter's voice can give the command for the powder to do it's thing. Maybe a different chemical is introduced to the charge to set it off. Perhaps no powder is involved, but bullets are magically empowered to fling themselves from the confines of the weapon's barrel under the right circumstances. Maybe a tiny (but very, very tough) imp sits in the breech of the barrel with a box of even tinier matches and lights the powder charge when commanded to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmjalund Posted January 5, 2010 Report Share Posted January 5, 2010 Re: A couple of brain cells connected... maybe - instead of having magical gunpowder, just have a magical igniter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCoy Posted January 5, 2010 Report Share Posted January 5, 2010 Re: A couple of brain cells connected... The question is what would a firearm look like in a world where magic was possible. In my late, lamented (by me anyway) RuneQuest campaign, the PC's were once surprised by a mixed group of bandits. One of the bandits, a dwarf, pulled a shiny brass device from his belt. There was a very loud boom, a stench of brimstone, and one of the PC's fell, with his arm incapacitated. The dwarf dropped his shiny thing, and closed with a battleaxe. The PC's won the battle, and tried to figure out what had happened. The wounded PC had been struck with a piece of lead about half the size of a sling bullet, but doing more damage than even a magically boosted slingstone. The shiny piece of brass was a hollow tube with a handle. It smelled like sulfur. The tube was open on one end, closed on the other, but as the PC's experimented they found that the closed end could be opened. Other than the little door that opened and closed the one end, there were no moving parts. If the tube was held by the handle with the open end pointed away from themselves, they could see two spell matrices engraved on the tube, one that improved the accuracy of missile weapons, the other the one for starting fires. In a pouch on the late dwarf's belt they found a few of the little sling bullets, several small swatches of cloth saturated with some sort of grease, and a bronze rod that seemed to be the exactly right diameter and length to push one of those greasy patches completely through the tube when both ends were open. The players knew they had encountered a single shot pistol. With a smooth bore, an accuracy spell instead of rifling, and triggered by an ignite spell. All the characters ever figured out was that tinder put inside that tube could be lit no matter how bad the weather. They never found another firearm, but every dwarf thereafter encountered thereafter was called "Sir," and they never drew weapons first in the presence of a strange dwarf. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 Re: A couple of brain cells connected... The players I know would have intentionally gone dwarf hunting in an attempt to corner the market on guns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmadanNaBriona Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 Re: A couple of brain cells connected... The players I know would have intentionally gone dwarf hunting in an attempt to corner the market on guns. That makes the Mostali Cannon Cult grumpy, and they're NOT the sort you want grumpy wit'cha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCoy Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 Re: A couple of brain cells connected... The players I know would have intentionally gone dwarf hunting in an attempt to corner the market on guns. Who knows? They might have too if that dwarf hadn't had his last bit of gunpowder in the pistol when they encountered him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 Re: A couple of brain cells connected... That makes the Mostali Cannon Cult grumpy' date=' and they're NOT the sort you want grumpy wit'cha[/quote'] Perhaps, but the powergamers I'm referring to were some of the best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alcamtar Posted January 9, 2010 Report Share Posted January 9, 2010 Re: A couple of brain cells connected... Then how can magic be taught? As an art, not a science. The same way surfing or art or music or cooking or language is taught. "Everyone does it a bit differently... here's how I do it... there are no hard and fast rules, most people consider X to be bad form, but some of the great masters do it that way... I can't give you the skill, just watch me and try it for yourself, and practice practice practice. You'll figure it out if you have the knack for it." Like music or cooking, some people can manage by precisely following someone else's instructions, but the true masters work intuitively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alcamtar Posted January 9, 2010 Report Share Posted January 9, 2010 Re: A couple of brain cells connected... In a fantasy world that has wands of fireballs (in other words' date=' a typical D&D type setting), it's surprising that someone hasn't developed a handheld version that is easily rechargeable, and can hold 10-12 shots before needing to be. For that matter, it's also surprising that someone hasn't taken a crossbow, ripped off the bow, and slotted in a wand of fireballs in its place. [/quote'] They have, it's called a "wand", and the rifle version is called a "staff" If I had a wand I wouldn't attach it to a rifle stock, the wand form is way more convenient. Whether they are rechargable varies by game. If guns were cheaper than ammo, they would be disposable not reloadable. Or maybe magic damages the container (like a grenade) so it can't be reloaded. Or maybe like lightning, magic haughtily refuses to use the same container twice. ("Bah! I want a new wand, not that ratty old thing. And throw on some gold and gems you cheapskate, treat me like a lady.") I'm also a little surprised that, in a setting with magical flying carpets and brooms, it's not just easier to apply a similar enchantment to a carriage, and less costly energy-wise to have it only run on roads rather than fly. That assumes that enchantments are like science, just a force you apply however you wish. It seems to me that magic generally obeys the laws of poetry and tradition, not reason or law. Magic is also apparently semi-sentient and it does what it wants to do. You can't force it to do whatever you want, any more than you can force water to flow uphill. Magic is like an invisible cat with the powers of a genie. You have to coax it, and it generally works best when you command it to do what it was already inclined to do anyway, because it's aloof and it just doesn't give a damn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susano Posted January 9, 2010 Report Share Posted January 9, 2010 Re: A couple of brain cells connected... I now recall reading some of the Paul Kidd Greyhawk novels where the pixie ends up with a pump-action wand of cold with a dial for intensity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted January 9, 2010 Report Share Posted January 9, 2010 Re: A couple of brain cells connected... As an art' date=' not a science. The same way surfing or art or music or cooking or language is taught. [i']"Everyone does it a bit differently... here's how I do it... there are no hard and fast rules, most people consider X to be bad form, but some of the great masters do it that way... I can't give you the skill, just watch me and try it for yourself, and practice practice practice. You'll figure it out if you have the knack for it."[/i] Like music or cooking, some people can manage by precisely following someone else's instructions, but the true masters work intuitively. Yet there is still some science: "Apply the pigment in this way to produce this result" at a minimum. Color mixing, which minerals work best as sculpting media, what clays have the right consistency for pottery... art is not independent of nor in opposition to science, but is an aesthetic application thereof. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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