Narf the Mouse Posted December 23, 2009 Report Share Posted December 23, 2009 ...Just because a setting has guns, and possibly cannon, does not mean it has science. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted December 23, 2009 Report Share Posted December 23, 2009 Re: A couple of brain cells connected... No, but it does mean it has technology. Including gunpowder weapons in your fantasy campaign automatically gives it a Renaissance/Musketeer "feel" that doesn't play well with the typical elf-wizard-dragon tropes. There can be exceptions*, but it's hard to avoid this problem unless you treat guns as a kind of magic--and then why have them? *Castle Falkenstein and Naomi Novik's books are the best exceptions I can think of. Still, the former seems closer to steampunk and the latter to, I guess, urban fantasy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narf the Mouse Posted December 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 24, 2009 Re: A couple of brain cells connected... The Greeks had rockets and clockwork. The Romans had clockwork. The Chinese had fireworks, mines and compasses. Technology is an outgrowth of science. Guns are not magic, but there's no reason that a "medieval" society would know the difference. When your handcannon was made by a master mechanist and your smokepowder was made by a master alchemist and, as far as the three of you know, it works because the element of Fire in the powder reacts terribly with the element of Water that is mixed in before drying and the wheellock could only be made because the mechanist has, over twenty years, developed an instinctual grasp of mechanisms without knowing the true mathematical underpinnings... ...That's not science or technology. That's just a more evolved "Bang these two rocks together to make the earth spirits angry and expel fire." As for why? Because some bright guy dropped a hot rock into a cauldron of various substances and the survivors thought the rock made a quite useful-looking hole when it landed. Or in other words - In real life, guns replaced bows for a few reasons: 1) You could train a gunman far more easily than a bowman. 1a) There were far more people around who hadn't been trained in the bow. 2) Science and technology were beginning to be understood. 2a) People were working out the math and principles behind guns rationally, systematically and logically. They didn't always understand, but *They knew there was something to understand, beyond Bibity-bobity-boo*. 3) Therefore, guns and people trained to wield them could be generated fast enough to outweigh the downsides. Downsides: 1) It took about a minute to load and fire a gun. I've fired a bow a couple of times in my life, and I'd make a layman's guess of 6 seconds per shot, so bows fired at least five times faster - Up to ten times, with no rest. 2) Guns were inaccurate. Beyond fifty yards, you mass-fired to have a chance of hitting something. 3) Guns could be deflected by hardened leather after fifty yards. Longbows could reliably kill out to two hundred. Take out 2, 2a and 3 of the advantages and guns will only be used because, within those fifty yards, they're murderous - And they can be kept ready far more easily and without wear than bows or crossbows. Also, one can have a handgun in each hand; the same cannot really be done with a useful crossbow, without poison being involved. In other words, they're niche weapons, without a knowledge of science and technology. Nowhere in there do I see "Swashbuckling". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted December 24, 2009 Report Share Posted December 24, 2009 Re: A couple of brain cells connected... In other words, they're niche weapons, without a knowledge of science and technology. Nowhere in there do I see "Swashbuckling". The "swashbuckling" bit comes from the fact that most games are based on interesting fiction. Rare is the fantasy fiction that includes gunpowder weapons that is still in a medieval or Middle-Earth-like setting. I'm sure there are exceptions, but as I explained above, they are very rare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Posted December 24, 2009 Report Share Posted December 24, 2009 Re: A couple of brain cells connected... it kinda gets Col.Colt's quote get said earlier the gods did not make all creatures equal but that damn gnome Colt just added more to the fray guns and explosives allow more people into the fight with legendary warriors and wizards of course this is only good if the damage they wield is balanced vs others it could just be that early gun powder need to have lots of training like an archer but then cannons with grapeshot could deal with those pesky bouncing martial artists and other high DCV targets Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narf the Mouse Posted December 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 24, 2009 Re: A couple of brain cells connected... Ah, you mean a player problem. I am a bit worried about that. It will be dealt with, at least in part, by making guns exotic, rare and not innately more useful than a crossbow. But, to get a second opinion, how do you think players would react to this? House Acturus Smokepowder Handcannon, Wheellock Long: (Total: 60 Active Cost, 11 Real Cost) Killing Attack - Ranged 3d6 (45 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Minute, -1 1/2), OAF Expendable (Difficult to obtain new Focus; Ball and Smokepowder; -1 1/4), Required Hands Two-Handed (-1/2), STR Minimum 9-13 (-1/2), Inaccurate (0 OCV; -1/2), Beam (-1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4), Reduced By Range (-1/4) (Real Cost: 7) plus Naked Advantage: Ranged (+1/2), Increased Maximum Range (600m; +1/2) for up to 15 Active Points (15 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Minute, -1 1/2), OIF Expendable (Difficult to obtain new Focus; Ball and Smokepowder; -3/4), Inaccurate (0 OCV; -1/2), Reduced By Range (-1/4) (Real Cost: 4) House Acturus Ball and Smokepowder: Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6 (15 Active Points); 1 Charge (Only Ball is Recoverable; -3), OAF (Smokepowder Handcannon; -1), Side Effects (Side Effect always occurs whenever the character does some specific act; 1d6k of damage to wielder, unless in proper container; -3/4), Inaccurate (0 OCV; -1/2), Beam (-1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4), Reduced By Range (-1/4), Requires A Roll (14- roll; -1/4) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted December 24, 2009 Report Share Posted December 24, 2009 Re: A couple of brain cells connected... Ah. Sorry, I thought you were asking a genre question, not a mechanics one. Your writeups are good, except that I'm not sure I would bother using either one. The inaccuracy and extreme reload times make them uncompetitive with other missile weapon types. I'd actually lose the inaccuracy, since firearms were supposed to be easier to aim than bows, and add the usual armor piercing (for fantasy) and +2 stun multiple. I'd replace the inaccuracy and reduced by range with a steep range mod penalty. I'd expect the handgun at least to be a pretty fearsome close range ranged weapon. You could even justify raising the damage... Most flintlocks, iirc, were .68 caliber or greater. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narf the Mouse Posted December 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 24, 2009 Re: A couple of brain cells connected... Well, a general question in general. I'm trying to sort out my thoughts on the matter. My left brain insists that guns will happen; my right brain doesn't want guns in fantasy. So I'm looking for an argument stopper, either side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susano Posted December 24, 2009 Report Share Posted December 24, 2009 Re: A couple of brain cells connected... Actually, Iron Kingdoms does manage to combine guns, magic, elves, dwarves, dragons, and even mecha in one setting. And does it well, IMO. The sourcebooks are really hard to find (I was lucky) but they have a lot of interesting information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Goodwin Posted December 24, 2009 Report Share Posted December 24, 2009 Re: A couple of brain cells connected... Well, a general question in general. I'm trying to sort out my thoughts on the matter. My left brain insists that guns will happen; my right brain doesn't want guns in fantasy. So I'm looking for an argument stopper, either side. Does it matter whether the guns are technological or magical? In a fantasy world that has wands of fireballs (in other words, a typical D&D type setting), it's surprising that someone hasn't developed a handheld version that is easily rechargeable, and can hold 10-12 shots before needing to be. For that matter, it's also surprising that someone hasn't taken a crossbow, ripped off the bow, and slotted in a wand of fireballs in its place. I'm also a little surprised that, in a setting with magical flying carpets and brooms, it's not just easier to apply a similar enchantment to a carriage, and less costly energy-wise to have it only run on roads rather than fly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susano Posted December 24, 2009 Report Share Posted December 24, 2009 Re: A couple of brain cells connected... Does it matter whether the guns are technological or magical? In a fantasy world that has wands of fireballs (in other words, a typical D&D type setting), it's surprising that someone hasn't developed a handheld version that is easily rechargeable, and can hold 10-12 shots before needing to be. For that matter, it's also surprising that someone hasn't taken a crossbow, ripped off the bow, and slotted in a wand of fireballs in its place. I'm also a little surprised that, in a setting with magical flying carpets and brooms, it's not just easier to apply a similar enchantment to a carriage, and less costly energy-wise to have it only run on roads rather than fly. It's called "Eberron." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulcan Posted December 24, 2009 Report Share Posted December 24, 2009 Re: A couple of brain cells connected... My response, when the players start wanting to apply magic in technological ways (i.e. the easily-rechargable fireball wand, the 'ground-gliding' carriage), is that it is magic, not technology, and therefore does not scale and react in the same way. It is not easier to make the recharge cells for the fireball wand than a whole new fireball wand; the ground-gliding carriage will be vastly more vulnerable to broken wheels due to the speed. Magic is difficult and unpredictable. What works for one person will not necessarily work the same way for another. Technology (once developed) is predictable. What works for one person will work the same way for another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted December 24, 2009 Report Share Posted December 24, 2009 Re: A couple of brain cells connected... Magic is difficult and unpredictable. What works for one person will not necessarily work the same way for another. Then how can magic be taught? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narf the Mouse Posted December 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 24, 2009 Re: A couple of brain cells connected... ...And that could explain why Smokepowder hasn't been developed very much. They think it's magic and few people want to risk meddling with something that explodes with that much force. Add in that most of the people willing to do so are alchemists and generally add one or more magical substances (And typically do so out in the wilderness) and it becomes clear why Smokepowder and Smokepowder weapons have stayed at a primitive level for a ~thousand years. Thanks - And the conversation itself is interesting, so if you want to continue, don't let me stop you. True - If magic can be "sufficiently analyzed", it's science, not magic. But then, how do you describe something that can't really be described? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susano Posted December 25, 2009 Report Share Posted December 25, 2009 Re: A couple of brain cells connected... But then' date=' how do you describe something that can't really be described?[/quote'] "It's a Uwe Boll movie" usually says everything you need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted December 25, 2009 Report Share Posted December 25, 2009 Re: A couple of brain cells connected... Well, a general question in general. I'm trying to sort out my thoughts on the matter. My left brain insists that guns will happen; my right brain doesn't want guns in fantasy. So I'm looking for an argument stopper, either side. Well, game balance isn't really an issue, since in Hero you can define guns however you want (within reason). It becomes a question of player perception of setting. Guns in Iron Kingdoms are fine. Guns in Middle Earth, not so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narf the Mouse Posted December 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 25, 2009 Re: A couple of brain cells connected... It's not a "Mythological" world in the sense of a "Living faery tale". So guns make sense - Thanks. As for player perception, how do I convey the existence of guns as a relatively isolated artifact of an ancient world? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susano Posted December 25, 2009 Report Share Posted December 25, 2009 Re: A couple of brain cells connected... Well' date=' game balance isn't really an issue, since in Hero you can define guns however you want (within reason). It becomes a question of player perception of setting. Guns in Iron Kingdoms are fine. Guns in Middle Earth, not so much.[/quote'] Except for that stuff Saurman had.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmjalund Posted December 25, 2009 Report Share Posted December 25, 2009 Re: A couple of brain cells connected... Who's inspired to run a Fantasy Steampunk campaign? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault Posted December 25, 2009 Report Share Posted December 25, 2009 Re: A couple of brain cells connected... It's not a "Mythological" world in the sense of a "Living faery tale". So guns make sense - Thanks. Actually, "living faery tale" would be one of the settings where guns would be acceptable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmadanNaBriona Posted December 25, 2009 Report Share Posted December 25, 2009 Re: A couple of brain cells connected... Who's inspired to run a Fantasy Steampunk campaign? While not quite fantasy, at least one of the sources I'm stealing (Errr, borrowing) from for my Post Apoc Steampunk setting is Michael Moorcock's Hawkmoon, which is usually considered pretty much PA Fantasy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted December 25, 2009 Report Share Posted December 25, 2009 Re: A couple of brain cells connected... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology#Definition_and_usage http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology#Paleolithic_.282.5_million_.E2.80.93_10.2C000_BC.29 http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/technology http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/technology Banging two rocks togther can easily be technology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmjalund Posted December 25, 2009 Report Share Posted December 25, 2009 Re: A couple of brain cells connected... Banging two rocks together can easily be technology. Not to mention fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susano Posted December 25, 2009 Report Share Posted December 25, 2009 Re: A couple of brain cells connected... "The secret is to bang the rocks together, guys" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Jogger Posted December 25, 2009 Report Share Posted December 25, 2009 Re: A couple of brain cells connected... As for player perception' date=' how do I convey the existence of guns as a relatively isolated artifact of an ancient world?[/quote'] 1) Give them a different name. Guns is too common, too familiar of a term. Perhaps even different names. Slugthrower, boomstick, arrowless crossbow, handheld trebuchet. Practically each person will call it something different since they are so rare that they have no common name. 2) Make it feel alien. There should be something about the gun, maybe it gives a strange humming noise, or there's an activation roll or maybe there's a strange feeling like it is going to crawl up the arm. It doesn't have to actually DO anything weird, but it should feel somehow unnatural. Those are the two suggestions off the top of my head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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