Full Half Move

[Lupus]

So, I have a character who's able to move gracefully and near-effortlessly. The net effect I want is being able to make a full move with only a half phase action. The best way I can think of to buy this is extra inches of running, limited 'only to make half moves.' So if I have running 10", I buy another 10", limited.

 

Any better ideas for this construct? And what sounds like a good value for the limitation - -1 was sounding right to me, similar to 'only to jump up' for jumping. Ends up being 2 points per extra inch of half-move (seeing as movement is halved for a half-move).

[BNakagawa]

I have often used this mechanic to get characters who had a high tactical speed (large half move) but without being inordinately fast (able to get speeding tickets on highways)

 

IMO, a -1 limitation is much too high for this power. If you had a choice of 20" of flight or 40" that you could only use for a half move, which would you rather have? Both get you the same amount of absolute movement in a phase, and one of them gives you a free half phase to do something else with.

 

$0.02

[Lupus]

Originally posted by BNakagawa

I have often used this mechanic to get characters who had a high tactical speed (large half move) but without being inordinately fast (able to get speeding tickets on highways)

 

IMO, a -1 limitation is much too high for this power. If you had a choice of 20" of flight or 40" that you could only use for a half move, which would you rather have? Both get you the same amount of absolute movement in a phase, and one of them gives you a free half phase to do something else with.

 

$0.02

Oh, the way I was imagining this was to have to buy that 20" of flight, then another 20" with the limitation, to increase the value of the half-move. Total cost: 60 points (40 points for 20" flight, 20 points for +10" absolute value to the half-move).

 

Buying 40" flight, all limited, would defeat the purpose.

[KA.]

Lupus,

 

I don't mean to be offensive in any way, but I find the construct you are proposing to be annoyingly "Gamey".

 

What I mean is, that it is a little too "rules aware" for comfort.

 

Imagine if a player wanted to buy:

10 pts of Extra Strength "Only to pick up and carry my dependent NPC".

 

It would seem reasonable to say that a character is either strong enough to carry another person, or they aren't.

 

Not that they are able to carry their DNPC, and no one else.

 

It might make sense for a GM to allow a character an automatic Push, when their DNPC is in mortal danger, but to actually build it into a character construct just seems cheesy.

 

If you want your character to be able to make a 20" half-move, buy them 40" of flight.

 

What would your character say: "I am only making a half-move, so I can fly twice as fast, but if I were making a full move, I couldn't."

 

That just doesn't seem to make sense.

 

If you are looking for someone who is capable of a great "burst of speed" but only for short distances . . .

 

How about something like buying the additional 20" with a limitation like Extra End Cost? That way, when needed, the character could "push himself to the limit" and make the really fast half-move, but it would cost him (End), and it would be reflected in the construct.

 

Also, in a major emergency, he could make a full move of 40" or even a non-combat move of 80", and "save the day" at "great personal cost".

 

That sounds more like a hero to me.

 

KA

[Elysea]

Isn't there a No Noncombat Velocity disadvantage you can apply? Don't have FREd in front of me but I think that's the route I would go. Buy the appropriate number of inches and then apply that disadvantage.

[Victim]

Originally posted by KA.

Lupus,

 

I don't mean to be offensive in any way, but I find the construct you are proposing to be annoyingly "Gamey".

 

What I mean is, that it is a little too "rules aware" for comfort.

 

If you want your character to be able to make a 20" half-move, buy them 40" of flight.

 

What would your character say: "I am only making a half-move, so I can fly twice as fast, but if I were making a full move, I couldn't."

 

That just doesn't seem to make sense.

 

If you are looking for someone who is capable of a great "burst of speed" but only for short distances . . .

 

How about something like buying the additional 20" with a limitation like Extra End Cost? That way, when needed, the character could "push himself to the limit" and make the really fast half-move, but it would cost him (End), and it would be reflected in the construct.

 

Also, in a major emergency, he could make a full move of 40" or even a non-combat move of 80", and "save the day" at "great personal cost".

 

That sounds more like a hero to me.

 

KA

 

I disagree. The character isn't moving faster when taking a half move the way Lupus has set up his running. Buying extra running in that manner essentially lets the character act while taking a full move: i.e, he can run down the hall with guns blazing, as opposed to running down the hall, or walking down it with guns blazing.

[Killer Shrike]

Simple: Extra Movement with the NCM modifier. Thats it.

 

As an example, John Wrath has this type of construct.

[Lupus]

Originally posted by Victim

I disagree. The character isn't moving faster when taking a half move the way Lupus has set up his running. Buying extra running in that manner essentially lets the character act while taking a full move: i.e, he can run down the hall with guns blazing, as opposed to running down the hall, or walking down it with guns blazing.

That's exactly the effect I'm after. Movement that's effortless to the extent that it doesn't detract from anything else the character is doing. So even after a full move, there's a half-phase action remaining.

[misterdeath]

You can buy extra movement, no Non-combat. That has the benefit of being able to double your movement in all combat. But, I don't think it simulates what you want to do.

 

This power seems to model "burst of speed", not "do things while moving".

 

In Ninja Hero they have a character with Leaping, and Leaping "only to make half moves in combat" at -1.

 

A speed 4 character doesn't move, and shoot in a second, then stop for 3 seconds, then move and shoot, etc. We just abstract it that way to make the combat flow smoother.

 

Since we're already abstracting actual movement with our segmented system, what the "only for half moves" construct seems to model is the "doing things in the middle of your full movement" which some characters in some genres can do.

 

So, using the published example "only to make half moves" -1 seems right. You're giving up Non combat movement, and the ability to take really big full movements.

 

D

[Zed-F]

I agree with a previous poster that -1 is too high. -1/2 is a better-balanced value. Possibly you could define it as -1/2 for only for half-moves and -1/4 for no NCM (total -3/4) but certainly not more than that.

[J4y]

I agree with KA here, it doesn't make sense. If you want to move faster, just buy more movement. As it is with your construct, what stops you from simply taking 2 half moves and going as fast as you would if you'd just bought the full movement amount?

[Tech]

Interesting... it seems we are neatly spit down the middle here regarding this. I've seen this type of character and think it's a legitimate power. I don't find it cheesy or powergaming. My vote is: it's legal; go ahead and buy it. Regardless of what we think - if your GM agrees to it, go ahead and create the power.

[Lupus]

Yep, this construct does seem a bit gamey. But that's because I'm couching it in game terms. 'CAuse this is, after all, HERO system, and sometimes you have to get into the nitty gritty.

 

I'm not looking for 'burst of speed.' I'm not looking for dashing around, then sitting still. I'm looking for someone who can move at their full rate, yet still act - not moving any faster, but able to act normally regardless of how far they move (NCM excepted). So instead of having to move slowly to shoot, he can move at normal full move... yet still shoot. Moving doesn't get in the way of him acting. That's it. He's no /faster/, he just moves without effort.

 

No, he couldn't just make two half-moves. That would be part of the limitation of the power. I might rename it 'only to calculate half-move.' If he takes a half-move, he moves 10". If he takes a full move, he moves 10". It's important to understand that for this character concept, he's going at the same speed both times - he's still moving for the full time between phases. He can simply act unimpeded when moving at 10".

 

Given the results of the discussion here, I'll go with -1 - especially as a similar lim appeared in Ninja HERO, which I should pick up some day.

[BNakagawa]

Under your definition, under what circumstances would this character EVER take a full move?

 

Since there really isn't any circumstance in which taking a full move makes any sense whatsoever, just how limiting is this alleged limited power?

 

When I used this, I had characters who could half move around 70% of their full move and still attack or dodge or whatever. But there was still a reason why I might have to full move.

 

$0.02

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by BNakagawa

Under your definition, under what circumstances would this character EVER take a full move?

 

That depends on your definition. since the character has the abioity to still attack WHILE taking a full move, I suspet he's always making a full move.

 

The real issue is "when will you miss having the ability to move twice as fast while taking a full move instead of attacking or doing something else". Whenever he has to get somewhere fast, I'd say.

 

So the question is how often that will be. I don't think it's often enough to say it's half the time (ie a -1 limitation). I lean towards a -1/2 limitation myself, as there are times you would like to be able to move twice as far in a given phase.

 

EDIT - Thought for a minute

 

Hmmm...how will that work? He's got 10" movement already (worth 20 points) and buys 10" more, only for half moves, do 20/1.5 = 13 = 33 total. If we give him -1 on just the bonus 10", he pays 30 in aggregate, which is effectively -1/4 on his 40 points of running as a whole.

 

OK, a -1/4 limit on the whole movement power ("1/2 moves only - no increase for a full move") seems reasonable to me, so I recant my -1/2 above. The character should get -1 on the extra inches to half move, or alternatively -1/4 on the value of all the movement put together (including the base 6", since that is also being limited).

[BNakagawa]

The point is: If I have the option of making a 10" full move or a 10" half move, which am I going to do all the time?

 

Given that you're going to take 10" half moves all the time, why would I buy 10" of movement and then 10" of movement that only bumps my half move? (20 + 10 = 30 pts)

 

Why wouldn't I buy 20" of movement that only bumps my half move? (20 pts)

[Guest Keneton]

A Solution

 

My friend Mike Dodd had a character named Shadow Stalker that was a highly trained normal. To cover the special effects of her fighting ability and speed he propsed that Shadow Stalker fough at a sprint. To accomplish this he did the following things.

 

1. She had a 6 Speed.

2. Her full move was bought to 10" but he took teh limitation no noncomnat movement-- in otherwise she fought at full speed.

3. She took the full move element on many of her martail art attacks.

 

Combining these three with good 8 point levels, rapid attack, Defense Maneuver 1 thru 4, and some good movement skills will build the charcter you want without resorting to "gamey mechanics."

 

I have no problem with other suggestions, but IMHO this works.

 

 

[Lupus]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

EDIT - Thought for a minute

 

Hmmm...how will that work? He's got 10" movement already (worth 20 points) and buys 10" more, only for half moves, do 20/1.5 = 13 = 33 total. If we give him -1 on just the bonus 10", he pays 30 in aggregate, which is effectively -1/4 on his 40 points of running as a whole.

 

OK, a -1/4 limit on the whole movement power ("1/2 moves only - no increase for a full move") seems reasonable to me, so I recant my -1/2 above. The character should get -1 on the extra inches to half move, or alternatively -1/4 on the value of all the movement put together (including the base 6", since that is also being limited).

That is a very interesting analysis of the point cost. Thank you.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Lupus

That is a very interesting analysis of the point cost. Thank you.

 

Quick, get GM approval now before Farkling explains why I'm being way too soft

[J4y]

The character should get -1 on the extra inches to half move, or alternatively -1/4 on the value of all the movement put together (including the base 6", since that is also being limited).

 

As BNakagawa said, just buy ALL your movement with that disadvantage, since you're paying half the cost for it at -1 you can buy twice as much which means you're now doing half moves of the same distance you would be doing full moves for the same price. -1 is obviously WAY too much of a deduction. -1/2 is generous, but I still think it's a bad way to construct it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by J4y

The character should get -1 on the extra inches to half move, or alternatively -1/4 on the value of all the movement put together (including the base 6", since that is also being limited).

 

As BNakagawa said, just buy ALL your movement with that disadvantage, since you're paying half the cost for it at -1 you can buy twice as much which means you're now doing half moves of the same distance you would be doing full moves for the same price. -1 is obviously WAY too much of a deduction. -1/2 is generous, but I still think it's a bad way to construct it.

 

As stated in the small quote you chose to repeat, he would get -1/4 on all of his movement (40/1.25 = 32, so a little bit out, to get a total of 20" which only gets a half move, so 10"). That would mean the last 20 points would need to cost 12 (a 2/3 limitation, midway between 1/2 and 3/4). I'd probably go with -1/4 to the whole movement cost.

 

Note that the whole ovement is limited. Placing the limitation on the extra inches only would ignore the fact that there will never be a reason to make a full move with the initial 10" as that would serve only to waste a half phase.

[Tom Carman]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

As stated in the small quote you chose to repeat, he would get -1/4 on all of his movement (40/1.25 = 32, so a little bit out, to get a total of 20" which only gets a half move, so 10"). That would mean the last 20 points would need to cost 12 (a 2/3 limitation, midway between 1/2 and 3/4). I'd probably go with -1/4 to the whole movement cost.

 

Note that the whole ovement is limited. Placing the limitation on the extra inches only would ignore the fact that there will never be a reason to make a full move with the initial 10" as that would serve only to waste a half phase.

So? The way this is structured is to make the half-move equal to the full-move. Taking a half-action in the course of that full-move is just the SFX. By the way, if this came up in my game, I would rule that this half-action could not be held unless the character used a 5" half-move, since the SFX is acting while moving. That surplus half phase would be a "use it or lose it" proposition, so that 20 meter "full-half-move" is likely to end in a Dodge if no attack was planned.

 

My thinking has gone back and forth on this but I settled on the -1 for the extra 10". A Limitation of -1 removes about half of a Power's potential utility, and that does describe this situation: the character gets no additional distance to his move, either combat or noncombat. Nor can he use that extra 10" to add damage to a movethrough.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Tom Carman

By the way, if this came up in my game, I would rule that this half-action could not be held unless the character used a 5" half-move, since the SFX is acting while moving. That surplus half phase would be a "use it or lose it" proposition, so that 20 meter "full-half-move" is likely to end in a Dodge if no attack was planned.

 

My thinking has gone back and forth on this but I settled on the -1 for the extra 10". A Limitation of -1 removes about half of a Power's potential utility, and that does describe this situation: the character gets no additional distance to his move, either combat or noncombat. Nor can he use that extra 10" to add damage to a movethrough.

 

The difference between -1/4 on the whole thing and -1 on the bonus move is 2 points on a 40 point total cost (5%). 5% seems a reasonable margin of error to begin with, and the inability to hold the other half phase certainly justifies the marginally greater savings. The velocity limit would be automatic IMO.

 

The 5% is fixed, unlike most "part limited powers" as the power demands half the movement be bought unlimited, so it's not like this can be manipulated by varying the limited portion.

[Supreme Serpent]

Or just take a Physical Disad: Cannot move faster than a half-move.

[Blue Jogger]

If your campaign allows Snap Shot. Just by +2 OCV only to offset Snap Shot and go with the description:

I am not bothered by making full moves and attacking at the same time.

 

Personally, I always buy up my half move with the understanding that I'll most likely not to a full move in combat. The hard one was a human (sort-of) character that had +3" Running with Extra Endurance x3 (Half move of 9" is 5")