the meter and the hex (stretching)

[Matt Holck]

why is everything listed in meters?

Are hexes still two meters across?

 

I've played stretching since my character ickerus

and always found it a great advantage at 5 points per hex or 2 m.

Now, I find 6th edition reducing the cost of stretching to 1 point per meter.

[lemming]

Re: the meter and the hex (stretching)

 

Hexes are what ever you make them. Instead of everything being defined by Game Inches (which were 2 meters), things are defined by meters. So, no cost reductions, just a difference in unit of measurement.

 

No longer will we have Inches x 2.54/200 = Inches

[Matt Holck]

Re: the meter and the hex (stretching)

 

fair enough

 

4 hexes (8 m) stretching in 5th cost 20 points

in 6th, 8m of stretching cost 8 points

 

 

I'm a bit bemused

[ghost-angel]

Re: the meter and the hex (stretching)

 

As Lemming pointed out - Hexes are now whatever you set them to. The game is measured in Meters so there's no conversion from "fake unit" to "real unit" to judge distances. Now you can have a map scale of 1 Hex = 1 Meter, 1 Hex = 2 Meters, 1 Hex = 10 Meters, without having to recalculate anything on the character.

 

As for the cost of Stretching - it was reduced to bring it in line with other "movement" based powers of 1pt = 1 meter. And it is worth a very specific note that Stretching no longer provides Velocity Damage by itself any more. You have to buy that as a Hand Attack. Making the reduction in cost appropriate.

[Matt Holck]

Re: the meter and the hex (stretching)

 

I never used velocity damage

 

could a character with 8 meters stretching block an opponent 6 m in front of it

and then block an opponent 4 m behind it (at a -2 for the second block)

or would the total stretch be 10 m

[Rapier]

Re: the meter and the hex (stretching)

 

I never used velocity damage

 

could a character with 8 meters stretching block an opponent 6 m in front of it

and then block an opponent 4 m behind it (at a -2 for the second block)

or would the total stretch be 10 m

 

The character is going to need 10m of Stretching, at the minimum. If only one arm is stretchable, then the character would need 16m (6 forward, 6 back to starting position and then 4 behind). Assuming two arms are stretchable than one arm will stretch 6m forward and one arm will stretch 4m behind. 6m + 4m = 10m.

[Matt Holck]

Re: the meter and the hex (stretching)

 

would that constitute a limitation on the stretching?

after all, a character with two 8m arms could not reach someone 10 m in front of it

[Sean Waters]

Re: the meter and the hex (stretching)

 

You'll drive yourself nuts doing that. 8m of stretching means that you can stretch to a point 8m from where you are, not 8m in a radius from where you are, whether one arm or both stretch, or your legs do too. I know it sounds weird that you can stretch both arms 8m forward to grab someone but you can't reach in 8m in opposite directions. If it helps, try to think of a rule that covers this and, when you can't, you'll feel a little better about accepting the copromise. For stretching purposes you are considered a single piece of putty, not 5 putty limbs connected to a putty torso.

 

On the cost change; the cost HAS changed, relative to (say) flight - stretching is now cheaper, and has been bought into line, cost wise, with movement, which is something I've argued for. In fact I've argued that stretching should be considered a movement power as it fits the profile perfectly* - including velocity damage...which was, for some reason removed when the change was made. Do not try and understand, just accept...

 

 

*Although, to be fair, actually MAKING it a movement power means that you can't freely use stretching whilst moving because of the rules on mixing movement. That is easily solved though...

[Matt Holck]

Re: the meter and the hex (stretching)

 

I've always viewed stretching as ranged strength

 

I think

if a character only has half the range of their stretching

where a full stretch would be reaching in opposite directions simultaneously,

that should be a -1/2 limitation.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: the meter and the hex (stretching)

 

But it's not half their range. 1/2 + 1/2 =1. If you're stretched 5 Meters one direction and 5 Meters another direction (especially if its the exact opposite direction as you say) then you are stretched 10 Meters. So if you have 10 Meters of Stretching, you are using it all.

[Matt Holck]

Re: the meter and the hex (stretching)

 

indeed

but while that character can stretch 10", it's reach is only 5" from it's position.

This is why I thought a -1/2 limitation was appropriate

(10-1/2=6.67=7 points)

To calculate the cost of a power with limitations,
take  the absolute value of the limitation (|-lim|) and add the absolute value to 1 (1+|-lim|)
then divide that into the active points. 

10/(|-1/2|+1)=10/(3/2)=10*2/3=6.67

not quite as good as 10m in any direction for 10 points

but better than just 5m stretching for 5 points

[bigbywolfe]

Re: the meter and the hex (stretching)

 

indeed

but while that character can stretch 10", it's reach is only 5" from it's position.

No, it can reach a full 10 Meters from it's position, as long as it doesn't stretch in another direction at the same time...

[Matt Holck]

Re: the meter and the hex (stretching)

 

A character with the limitation I describe could not

[Rapier]

Re: the meter and the hex (stretching)

 

indeed

but while that character can stretch 10", it's reach is only 5" from it's position.

This is why I thought a -1/2 limitation was appropriate

(10-1/2=6.67=7 points)

take the limitation (-1/2) and add the absolute value to 1 and divide that into the 10 active points

10/(|-1/2|+1)=10/(3/2)=10*2/3=6.67

not quite as good as 10m in any direction for 10 points

but better than just 5m stretching for 5 points

 

Or possibly two 5m Stretching Powers, unified.

[Matt Holck]

Re: the meter and the hex (stretching)

 

Two 5 m stretching powers unified woud come to 8 points

4 5 m stretching (-1/4 unified power:stretching)

4 5 m stretching (-1/4 unified power:stretching)

That's paying 8 points for 10 active points. (80%)

 

Optimal rounding would occur at two 3 meter stretching unified

2 3 m stretching (-1/4 unified power:stretching)

2 3 m stretching (-1/4 unified power:stretching)

That's paying 4 points for 6 active points. (67%)

 

The next sweet spot would occur at two 8 meter stretching unified

6 8 m stretching (-1/4 unified power:stretching)

6 8 m stretching (-1/4 unified power:stretching)

That's paying 12 points for 16 active points. (75%)

 

My group has been playing stretching as a radius of reach.

In most incidences, the stretching did not require more than one direction.

I guess we never questioned it as stretching cost 5 points for 2 meters

[Opal]

Re: the meter and the hex (stretching)

 

I find it amusing that Hero and D&D have both rolled revs recently, and D&D chose to finally go all the way and do everything in 'squares,' while Hero decided to do a 180 and go to meters.

 

OD&D/1e/AD&D: everything was in game inches, but 1=10ft indoors and 10yds outdoors.

2e AD&D: still inches, but 1=10ft. And, y'know, that doesn't exactly match the 25mm figures you typically use with it.

3e D&D: inches are dropped, everythings in feet, but the game is now played on a 1=5' grid. That's closer to 25mm - though the figures are now closer to 30mm.

4e D&D: everythings in squares, and 1 square = 5' (and it's finally simple in play).

 

Champions! 1st through FRED: things are mosty inches, 1"=1 hex= 2m, but it's not perfectly consistent, growth sometimes gave you height in meters, flight is in inches, AEs in hexes. But, it's mostly in hexes and 1 hex = 1", so it's easy and convenient to move characters and plot AEs on a hex map .

Hero 6th: forget hexes and inches, everything's in meters. But, dividing by 2 every time you move or count a range or area on your hex map is no big deal - if you can handle Hero Math, you can /certainly/ divide by two.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: the meter and the hex (stretching)

 

And why would you have to divide by two?

[Opal]

Re: the meter and the hex (stretching)

 

Meters to hexes. Assuming a battlemat with 1" hexes, and Cardboard heroes or 25mm figures, the old 2m per hex would still be a convenient scale. Same if you were using a 1" grid - readily available since they've been used heavily in D&D for the last 10 years.

 

Hmmm... that makes me wonder: do you think Hero dropping the hex might cause Chessex and the like to stop making them, concentrating on the grids used in D&D? What else uses a hex battlemat? GURPS? IIRC, GURPS used 1m hexes (two or three revs ago, when I last paid it any attention). There must be some 1/2" or 1cm battlemats out there you could use, if you don't already have 1" ones and lots of cardboard heros and the like, and you didn't want to divide by 2...

[Matt Holck]

Re: the meter and the hex (stretching)

 

The last game I ran the hexes were where 8 m across

I needed that much space for the roller coaster

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: the meter and the hex (stretching)

 

What else uses a hex battlemat? GURPS? IIRC' date=' GURPS used 1m hexes (two or three revs ago, when I last paid it any attention). There must be some 1/2" or 1cm battlemats out there you could use, if you don't already have 1" ones and lots of cardboard heros and the like, and you didn't want to divide by 2...[/quote']

 

GURPS has always measured things in US customary units, and while the books do come with conversion tables, I have it on good authority that they are the most inaccurate ever published. So I doubt that many people are using 1 hex = 1 m maps. However, almost all GURPS players and all GURPS sourcebooks use hex maps, and apparently GURPS has actually gained users since the horribly compromised fourth edition* came out, so I don't think there's any reason to worry about hex maps being discontinued.

 

*I still don't understand it myself, since aside from the updated power rules 4e GURPS was horrible and drove me away from all but the sourcebooks.

[Balabanto]

Re: the meter and the hex (stretching)

 

As Lemming pointed out - Hexes are now whatever you set them to. The game is measured in Meters so there's no conversion from "fake unit" to "real unit" to judge distances. Now you can have a map scale of 1 Hex = 1 Meter, 1 Hex = 2 Meters, 1 Hex = 10 Meters, without having to recalculate anything on the character.

 

As for the cost of Stretching - it was reduced to bring it in line with other "movement" based powers of 1pt = 1 meter. And it is worth a very specific note that Stretching no longer provides Velocity Damage by itself any more. You have to buy that as a Hand Attack. Making the reduction in cost appropriate.

 

The problem is that cost doesn't always follow function, GA. I've already looked at this and noted a significant problem. Stretching puts you into Hand to Hand combat with your opponent. Range modifiers do not apply. Stretching is now significantly more uber, because it's real "value" is the ability to engage enemies from far away without suffering any range modifiers. Granted, they are also in hand to hand combat with you, but it's a 0 phase action to end the power after you use it. For 30 points, I can get 10 Range Skill Levels with a ranged attack, or I can buy 30 points of stretching and engage them directly. The flaw in this is that hand to hand modifiers for the attacker are always better. You can dodge with hand to hand levels, grab your opponent and give him penalties, or use martial arts on him, which carry all kinds of additional combat modifiers with them. Plus, "Does not Cross Intervening Space" now more than pays for itself.

 

The issue here is that most battles don't occur on maps where everything is more than 60 meters apart. A hero or villain with 30 meters of stretching and a bunch of modifiers to it effectively can be in hand to hand combat with everything on the board. That's sixty percent of a football field. Most of the time, the stretching is more effective, and you can put that in a multipower slot. You can't put skill levels of that sort in a multipower slot without specific GM permission.

 

The law of the battlemap defies this theory, sir. I'm sorry, but everything should be reasonably understandable by the players surrounding the table without radically altering the scale of the map every time you run.

[ghost-angel]

Re: the meter and the hex (stretching)

 

I'm not exactly sure which point you were addressing specifically... especially in that last paragraph which appears to be a non-sequitor on scaling.

 

but being able to set your Hex to whatever scale you want - consistent or otherwise between maps - is a good thing, and you don't have to do anything math beyond "If I have X Meters and the Scale is Y Meters Per Hex then I can move Y/X Hexes."

 

As for the cost of Stretching, 1point/meter may be too low if you're worried about the ramifications, I might suggest 2points/1 meter for Stretching. Any thing higher and it's more effective to buy a Movement Power to engage in Hand To Hand Combat.

[Matt Holck]

Re: the meter and the hex (stretching)

 

not too concerned about the ramifications

 

it's an interesting power,

and I don't mind players making use of it

when it becomes something that everyone buys automatically, I'd raise the price

[Fearghus]

Re: the meter and the hex (stretching)

 

Hmmm... that makes me wonder: do you think Hero dropping the hex might cause Chessex and the like to stop making them' date=' concentrating on the grids used in D&D? What else uses a hex battlemat? GURPS? IIRC, GURPS used 1m hexes (two or three revs ago, when I last paid it any attention). There must be some 1/2" or 1cm battlemats out there you could use, if you don't already have 1" ones and lots of cardboard heros and the like, and you didn't want to divide by 2...[/quote']

 

I have always used my 1" hex map for D&D, GURPS, HERO... it matters not what the size of the hex is only what it represents. In D&D the hex is 5' in GURPS it is 3' (1 yard) in hero 5th Ed it represented 2m, now when I play Hero 6th it will be 1m. No dividing by 2... no conversion necessary. I think 25mm minis work better at the 1" = 1m scale anyway since in hero 5th two characters can occupy the same hex and piling multiple figs in one hex is pretty tough when the base barely fits in the hex to begin with.

[ghost-angel]

Re: the meter and the hex (stretching)

 

Hmmm... that makes me wonder: do you think Hero dropping the hex might cause Chessex and the like to stop making them' date=' concentrating on the grids used in D&D? What else uses a hex battlemat? GURPS? IIRC, GURPS used 1m hexes (two or three revs ago, when I last paid it any attention). There must be some 1/2" or 1cm battlemats out there you could use, if you don't already have 1" ones and lots of cardboard heros and the like, and you didn't want to divide by 2...[/quote']

 

There are, IIRC, still a large number of miniatures games that use Hexes. I seriously doubt Chessex was printing Hex maps just because of Hero.