Duplication loophole?

[Broadsword]

I was looking at make a weak duplicate power for my hero called Modular Man. This is 5th edition. He basically comes apart and has a Multipower that allows him to take advantage of that. He also has a strong Regeneration power. So this power would be similar in that he takes a body part, like a leg, and grows a clone from it, given five minutes. Basically not combat useful unless used tactically. So I put just 10 points into it so far and that gives a 50 point base character, including disads.

 

Regardless, I was wondering, if you think about it, if you can put 0 points in and have a 0 point base, a flat line human. I know a GM would probably kill that idea for a single duplicate. But what if you wanted an army of normal humans, so that you put 20 or 30 points into it and got 16 to 64 regular (0 pt) people? Would that seem balanced?

 

The Hero Designer software allows you to add Duplication at only 1 point, so would we call that a Offical lower limit?

 

Broadsword -}--->

[Jhamin]

Re: Duplication loophole?

 

Well, you have to actually have to pay for a power to have it. So your 0 point idea doesn't work for the same reason you have to actually have bought flight before you can use Aid: Fight. Just using the Aid on a normal doesn't endow him with flight.

 

As for the 1 point gets you a 5 point duplicate? It certainly would work. Subject to GM approval of course.

[Matt Holck]

Re: Duplication loophole?

 

Most character have a zero point base house

 

I don't think they can afford a car though

in fifth, most standard cars cost around 15 (75) points.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Duplication loophole?

 

As GM I would likely allow cheap Duplicates unless there was some reason a 1 pt. Dupe would be off balanced (such as the Dupe having a 1 pip penetrating attack).

 

I always forget who created the build but from time to time I see a character who can transform into a murder of crows, each with a penetrating attack. Despite low point costs, the overall effect is brutal. Kudos to the creator of the build known as "murder" in my game.

[Lucius]

Re: Duplication loophole?

 

Did he get away with murder?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wants to know, did he get away with murder and crow aobut it?

[Susano]

Re: Duplication loophole?

 

Most character have a zero point base house

 

I don't think they can afford a car though

in fifth, most standard cars cost around 15 (75) points.

 

Normals don't buy equipment with Character Points.

[Lucius]

Re: Duplication loophole?

 

Normals don't buy equipment with Character Points.

 

I don't think he's necessarily talking about normals.

 

A superhero gets a house or at least apartment for free. I think they normally get a car for free too. Heck, they can probably have a car for their DNPC spouse too, as long as none of these vehicles are likely to play a role in their superheroics.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

How much did I pay for a palindromedary? Only the Game Operations Director knows for sure.

[Blue]

Re: Duplication loophole?

 

If I had a player suggest this, aside from the fact that as pointed out already you can't duplicate something you haven't spent points on, I'd probably say no. But that's just because they wouldn't be useful except as background helpers. They'd be cleaning the base and things like that but they'd never be useful in a superheroic campaign (which is what I run).

 

And if they insisted on trying to use them for combat there'd be all sorts of roleplaying issues with them being wiped out in combat. Just cuz. I mean, you're using an army of normals to fight supers? Not very superheroic. Why not just go out and shoot people yourself.

[Cardinal]

Re: Duplication loophole?

 

I don't care if you have 1 or 1000 normals hitting an average super with their mighty 2d6 attacks. They will be unable to do any damage to the average super with a 20def. That said, you will likely get lucky and be able to trip and knock over the super given enough shots.

 

Remember, you are going to have 1 normal dup die each time they are hit with a 12d6 attack and many will be maimed with each 8d6 aoe attack. As someone said earlier, not very heroic.

[Broadsword]

Re: Duplication loophole?

 

Well, for one thing, our heros use Champions powers, but are 150 point base with 50 more from Disads, so once you get a little Dex and Defense, and a one trick power, that is about it.

 

Plus in our game we use Agents extensively and there are always flak vests and guns laying around during a combat. So right there I can temporarly get my clones a 10 rPD/rED and a 2d6 RKA. Our game is more political, stealth, investigation and research based, so I can garantee that an extra set of eyes, hands and brain could come in very handy even at 0 pt base.

 

The point about 0 pts not having a power is valid, I guess.

 

Broadsword -}--->

[Broadsword]

Re: Duplication loophole?

 

Our GM beats us down by stacking Stun using Teamwork rolls. He'll attack with 4 agents and at least 3 will be successful on their Teamwork roll, thus 20 stun each turns into 60 stun and (Bam!) you are out.

[Susano]

Re: Duplication loophole?

 

Our GM beats us down by stacking Stun using Teamwork rolls. He'll attack with 4 agents and at least 3 will be successful on their Teamwork roll' date=' thus 20 stun each turns into 60 stun and (Bam!) you are out.[/quote']

 

Uhm... that's not how that works. Teamwork improves your chance of Stunning a foe, not knocking him out.

[Beowulfe]

Re: Duplication loophole?

 

If you are buying a duplicate that is different point base than you, don't you have to buy the advantage that allows that? I was thinking of soemthing similiar to this with this premise. Metamorph super that can change into variety of objects, including vehicles. The duplicate is just the 'driver' that people see, or would that be Images with physical manifestation?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Duplication loophole?

 

An advantage is required for duplicates that are different. Duplicates that have lesser abilities, but otherwise identical to the purchasing character, simply cost less. So a 60 STR, 25 PD/ED Brick could have 40 STR, 15 PD/ED Duplicates at a reduced cost and no advantage, but if he wants his Duplicate to have Acrobatics, Stealth and Shrinking, which the base character lacks, now he has to pay for an advantage.

[Broadsword]

Re: Duplication loophole?

 

Uhm... that's not how that works. Teamwork improves your chance of Stunning a foe' date=' not knocking him out.[/quote']

Oh man! I went and looked it up. You are right. My GM has been playing us. He's just been stacking the stun and handing it out.

 

Still, after the normals stun you, unless you have a good Speed, they are going to keep pounding you. Especially if they are trained and take turns holding their actions so they can go on what would be their off segments.

[Susano]

Re: Duplication loophole?

 

Oh man! I went and looked it up. You are right. My GM has been playing us. He's just been stacking the stun and handing it out.

 

Still, after the normals stun you, unless you have a good Speed, they are going to keep pounding you. Especially if they are trained and take turns holding their actions so they can go on what would be their off segments.

 

Yes, that's good tactical sense for agents and mooks. But you really need to talk to your GM about how he's using Teamwork. He's applying it unfairly.

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: Duplication loophole?

 

To help speed up combat with agents, I run groups of agents as if they were a single "character", increasing their OCV by 1 for every doubling (so 4-7 agents would be +2 to their normal OCV) and their damage by 1 DC per doubling, adjusted for Advantages (so a 10d6 EB becomes a 12d6 EB with 4-7 agents, but a 5d6 NND only becomes 6d6 NND for the same size group). However, the added damage is only applicable if the original attack could reasonably harm the super in the first place.

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: Duplication loophole?

 

He's applying it unfairly.

 

Well, technically, he's just applying it incorrectly. It's unfair if he doesn't let the heroes do the same thing. "Bob and I both made our Teamwork rolls, and we rolled 34 and 36 STUN respectively. That's 70 STUN against Bullrush's 20 ED. He's out!"

[Susano]

Re: Duplication loophole?

 

Well' date=' technically, he's just applying it incorrectly. It's unfair if he doesn't let the heroes do the same thing. "Bob and I both made our Teamwork rolls, and we rolled 34 and 36 STUN respectively. That's 70 STUN against Bullrush's 20 ED. He's out!"[/quote']

 

Opps... my mistake. Thanks, Bolo.

[Broadsword]

Re: Duplication loophole?

 

Well' date=' technically, he's just applying it incorrectly. It's unfair if he doesn't let the heroes do the same thing. "Bob and I both made our Teamwork rolls, and we rolled 34 and 36 STUN respectively. That's 70 STUN against Bullrush's 20 ED. He's out!"[/quote']

 

That's true. All our characters have it, but no one but me ever remembers to try to use it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Duplication loophole?

 

Still' date=' after the normals stun you, unless you have a good Speed, they are going to keep pounding you. Especially if they are trained and take turns holding their actions so they can go on what would be their off segments.[/quote']

 

An Area Effect attack quickly takes care of large groups of normals or agents. An AE Entangle tends to be especially effective.