First Wave, the First Review! Discuss, or risk Angering the Golden Tree!

[Guest steamteck]

Re: First Wave, the First Review! Discuss, or risk Angering the Golden Tree!

 

OK, so it is still the pulp era, shortly after WWII (to allow the Blackhawks in), but the reporters have mini-recorders instead of notebooks, the Blackhawks have a twin engine jet transport, TV is widespread, and cops carry cell phones. Not to mention the Blackhawks are a multi-racial, co-ed group.

Sorry, my suspension of disbelief doesn't go that far.

 

Sometimes its really fascinating the perplexing where peoples suspension of belief stops. works for me. if fact Rex has almost convinced me I have to get in on this despite the fact I simply cannot comprehend Brian Azzarello, who wrote the awful Superman arc "For Tomorrow", ( which I pretty much will NEVER forgive him for.) could possibly have any clue how to properly write Doc and any of the other pulp greats.

[Ranxerox]

Re: First Wave, the First Review! Discuss, or risk Angering the Golden Tree!

 

If you don't know of The Avenger you are missing a LOT.

 

~Rex

 

Looking The Avenger up on wikipedia, the characters appears to have had the misfortune of being introduced right at the the end of the pulp era. His magazine only ran three years before going under like most of the pulps of that time. Consequently, he is not as famous say The Shadow, The Spider and Doc Savage who were introduced earlier and enjoyed longer runs before pulp serials went out of fashion. Of course this isn't the character's fault and I am looking forward to becoming acquainted with Mr. Benson.

 

Sometimes its really fascinating the perplexing where peoples suspension of belief stops. works for me. if fact Rex has almost convinced me I have to get in on this despite the fact I simply cannot comprehend Brian Azzarello' date=' who wrote the awful Superman arc "For Tomorrow", ( which I pretty much will NEVER forgive him for.) could possibly have any clue how to properly write Doc and any of the other pulp greats.[/quote']

 

Brian Azzarello's signature series, 100 Bullets, has a strong pulp/noir feel to it. So he seems like a good fit to the material for me. Superman is difficult for many writers to script. Even an epic fail writing Superman doesn't necessary indicate a lack of talent on the part of the writer. It just means that the writer is one of the legion of writers who don't know what to do with the Big Blue Boyscout.

[RexMundi]

Re: First Wave, the First Review! Discuss, or risk Angering the Golden Tree!

 

Just to clarify a bit, the "Timeline" is left ambiguous, very much as pointed out by others, like The Batman animated series, where you had cars with Running Boards, but folks using computers. The First Wave Universe is being designed as it's own setting where your Heroes are of the type, that originally reigned supreme.

 

After getting to pick the First Wave crews collective brains at C2E2, I can say the following without a doubt. It's Pulp, but is also a more Modern setting, but Modern, is subjective here, as the setting is being designed from the get go, to be able to incorporate, Stuff Like Doc Savage and the Avenger (The Avenger btw is being written by one of the better Crime Novelists in the business at the moment), with things like, The Spirit, and Black Canary (And Wildcat for that matter, but as Azzarello said at the Panel, it might not be the Wildcat YOU are thinking of....). All of these guys working on this stuff, are REALLY into it, and the characters. They're not just approaching this as "Just another comic to work on...."

 

Now, I didn't particularly care for Azzarello's Superman spin either, but Superman, is HARD to write. 100 Bullets though, is one of my favorites works though. Since First Wave is still just getting it's feet wet, I'm cutting it a bit of slack. What they are trying to do, is not easy, especially when you have to work within the confines of Characters that are Owned by others. A good example of that is Doc Savage. Azzarello's Clark Savage Jr., is Multi Racial in Origin. You don't know WHAT races exactly, but that's a given point for the character. However, Azzarello was told in no uncertain terms that while that was an acceptable change for Doc, as Doc is "above" things like Race anyway, he could in no way, do such a thing, to Doc's Team. The Changes with Chop Chop on the Blackhawks, and Ebony White on The Spirit reflect this sort of take as well. A definite thing I can say after the panels were done though, is that all the folks working on this project are psyched about it. They want to do well, and they know they are going to get off to a rocky start at first. They're also taking a big risk on styles of art, and portrayals as well, so they have my Intrest, and I've been having a ton of fun with what's been released so far, and what was hinted at at the show.....

 

Now.....there were some naysayers, and some odd reviews. I got a kick out of a lot of the reviews especially for the Doc Savage #1 Comic which starts with Doc in the middle of an action scene, and folks going, wtf? Why? Where was the story that lead up to that?.....Why are they starting in the Middile or at the End?

 

Really? That's a question for a Pulp? I can't count the number of times, a Pulp Story started in the middle of an action scene. The Spider in the middle of a Gun Fight, The Lone Ranger rolling down a hillside after being shot at, the femme fatale walking past Sam Spade in the Bar. "In medias res" is one of the oldest narrative techniques out there. No one bashed the Illiad for starting in the middle nor the Nibelungenlied......but folks are hammering on the 1st Issue of the Doc savage comic because of it? Doesn't make sense to me really but then I'm used to Pulp literature starting that way and then tying up the lose ends with the noir flashbacks that tend to follow.

 

So as for the reviews (The industry reviews), the Negatives, all seem to be of the same trope ("Not my cup of tea, so it sucks"), and the Positives are exceptionally positive ("I found this to be odd, but I couldn't put it down and look forward to the next...").....Almost exactly, like the literary reviews of the written Material when it came out, back in the Golden Age of Pulp.

 

So I'm going to give Azarello and crew a fighting chance, because they picked a tough gig, and so far, they have entertained me. Have I been 100% happy, with every nuance, bit of art, bit of inking or pencils, dialog? No. But then, if you are 100% happy with everything, then that leaves no room for improvement, and things that can't evolve and improve, tend to be at best, mediocre and bleh, and lacking in any character. While not having been 100% happy, I will say, I have been 100% entertained, which is much harder to pull off.

 

~Rex

[Guest steamteck]

Re: First Wave, the First Review! Discuss, or risk Angering the Golden Tree!

 

My disbelieving he could get comes from the way he epically failed with Superman. When reading I felt like that kid watching Hamlet in the movie " The last action Hero.' . Don't talk about it anymore DO SOMETHING! Pulp is all about doing something so there's my disconnect. But what the heck, Doc is one of my top three or so favorite characters ever so I'll give it a try. There certainly seems lot of pulp love in the believers

[RexMundi]

Re: First Wave, the First Review! Discuss, or risk Angering the Golden Tree!

 

As a Side note......The Spirit #1 ......Wow...Great Stuff....I think I reread it like 4 times before I put it down.

 

~Rex.....Diehard Super Picky Spirit Fan......

[Ranxerox]

Re: First Wave #2

 

Well, I didn't see that coming.

 

If Brian Azzarello doesn't produce the real Black Hawks by the end of issue 3, I don't think I will be picking up issue 4. IMO, they are lucky that I don't assume that everything is as it appears to be and am willing to pick up issue 3 just in case.

[RexMundi]

Re: First Wave, the First Review! Discuss, or risk Angering the Golden Tree!

 

Define, the "Real Blackhawks...."?

 

~Rex......had a blast at c2e2 with Azzarello and the First Wave tag a longs......but maybe someone is seeing something he hasn't seen yet. Dagnab only getting to pick up his comics quarterly snafu!

[Ranxerox]

Re: First Wave, the First Review! Discuss, or risk Angering the Golden Tree!

 

"Real Blackhawks" = the ones who aren't rat bastards

 

I've been reading comics books long enough to know that no matter how much things appear to be one way it isn't necessarily so. That is why I'm not giving in spoilers, because they may not turn out to be accurate. Still, at this moment... it doesn't look good.

[John Desmarais]

Re: First Wave, the First Review! Discuss, or risk Angering the Golden Tree!

 

Define, the "Real Blackhawks...."?

 

~Rex......had a blast at c2e2 with Azzarello and the First Wave tag a longs......but maybe someone is seeing something he hasn't seen yet. Dagnab only getting to pick up his comics quarterly snafu!

 

A small team of (World War II-era) pilots/heroes of varied nationalities.

[RexMundi]

Re: First Wave, the First Review! Discuss, or risk Angering the Golden Tree!

 

Aye that would be when they started. The First Wave Blackhawks have been in action for some time, hence, they have some evolution and background attached to them. The Setting is an interesting blend of things, and their take on one of my favorites from my original start as a collector, I've actually found to be interesting.

 

~Rex

[Spence]

Re: First Wave, the First Review! Discuss, or risk Angering the Golden Tree!

 

I skipped to the end to avoid spoilers.

 

I have been collecting all the First Wave (Doc, Spirit, Bats) issues, but waiting to read them. Comics are SHORT, so I try to build up a few before reading.

 

I did read the one-shot with Doc and Bats and can say it looks like they just might have a winner on their hands.

 

Still time to screw it up, but that is the pessimist in me speaking

[RexMundi]

Re: First Wave, the First Review! Discuss, or risk Angering the Golden Tree!

 

I do much the same thing, though I tend to do it by not picking up comics weekly, I have them pull my stuff for about a quarter then I roll in and grab 3 months worth all at once. There is still a LOT of time to screw things up but one of the things I liked about my time at c2e2 with all these pulp comic guys. They are Invested, as writers and companies and artists, in these characters. That's hard to say with a lot of things nowadays.

 

~Rex.....

[Spence]

Re: First Wave, the First Review! Discuss, or risk Angering the Golden Tree!

 

I do much the same thing' date=' though I tend to do it by not picking up comics weekly, I have them pull my stuff for about a quarter then I roll in and grab 3 months worth all at once.[/quote']

 

I would, but I can’t help myself. I like to stop by my local shop and BS at least once a week…..

 

There is still a LOT of time to screw things up but one of the things I liked about my time at c2e2 with all these pulp comic guys. They are Invested, as writers and companies and artists, in these characters. That's hard to say with a lot of things nowadays.

 

~Rex.....

 

You evil evil evil man….tossing out positive vibes like that…..

we will have to get you censured by the International Brotherhood of Pessimists and Cynics…..

[RexMundi]

Re: First Wave, the First Review! Discuss, or risk Angering the Golden Tree!

 

Oh I'm a card carrying charter member of the IBoPaC.....Azzarello really wants to push things with this, so they are trying a lot of new things as well......

 

Either way, Pretty much everyone that was there from DC, is psyched about this material, but like anything new, it may take a few issues to get rolling. It's not like they are just taking over a running series, or starting with something with no background and no fans....Especially fans of the Spirit....we're downright mean.

 

~Rex

[DusterBoy]

Re: First Wave, the First Review! Discuss, or risk Angering the Golden Tree!

 

Well, I recognise Batman and Doc Savage. . . and I take it the masked man in the hat and the red tie is the Spirit?

 

The whole concept of having the entirely human, non-powered heroes of the pulps taking centre stage in their own comic book is a good one. In the regular comics, they tend to get overshadowed by a bunch of folks (mainly the Kryptonian Boy Scout and the Immortal Amazon) who mock us mortals just by existing.

[RexMundi]

Re: First Wave, the First Review! Discuss, or risk Angering the Golden Tree!

 

And, it's a LOT more, then just Doc, The Spirit, and The Bat Man. Case in point, they never say, Bat-Man. It's Always, THE Bat Man. As it should be. The only real shame I can really find so far, is some of the Art, is still settling. Lot of different artists, they all have a slightly different take, on "the look"....and, they have to waste issues doing set up (well not really a waste but it's time consuming) for the folks Not familiar with a lot of the characters.

 

I'm having a good time with it. My current 6e campaign world, has a lot of the same structure (though it has Super Humans, they are Pulp style/Golden Age kind of power levels....more Hugo Danner, Less Kryptonian Boyscout at the top end, the VAST majority, being non powered folks (Bat types, Doc types, Spirit Types), mixed with Pseudo Powered types (Hourman, Steel etc), mixed with Gizmo orientated folks (Starman, that kinda stuff....).....All maintaining that pulp feel, in a modern setting where Real, still remains real (with the real drawbacks).....So the First Wave stuff with it's mix of Pulp and Modern, is working very well for me.....

 

~Rex

[Pól Ruadh]

Re: First Wave, the First Review! Discuss, or risk Angering the Golden Tree!

 

This is a really good idea and I really wanted it to work, but it's just not working for me at all. I'm a big pulp heroes fan, and I'd love to see this sort of idea handled very, very well indeed, but this doesn't appear to be it. It's not even that I don't like Azzarello. I loved '100 Bullets' and 'Jonny Double' but he just doesn't seem comfortable working with these characters.

Luckily, I still have my collection of Bantam Paperbacks, and Nostalgia Ventures are currently helping me fill in the gaps on that.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: First Wave, the First Review! Discuss, or risk Angering the Golden Tree!

 

Its not bad but I'm just not getting that old Doc thrill. If my daughter visits the comic shop I'll have pick the latest for me but its not worth the trip myself.

[RexMundi]

Re: First Wave, the First Review! Discuss, or risk Angering the Golden Tree!

 

I didn't get the Old Doc thrill either at first, But then, the format is different, and now, that I'm past the set up issue, I feel it growing behind the panels. Part of the biggest Thrill in ANY pulp story, has always been, what "You" visualize as you read it. To a LOT of folks, the James Bama paintings didn't Look like Doc....at All.....to Them Doc is supposed to look like what they saw on the cover of Doc Savage Magazine, the Walter Baumhofer material........to fewer still, it's the Jim Sterenko comic stuff....

 

Still, since Conde Nast still has their strangle hold on the character, certain things MUST remain true, though Azzarello has been given the go ahead to change a few things here and there the core doundation is already set. The big thing that I have noticed so far is that the First Wave stuff MUST follow, comic format. That's a bit off setting Storywise to a lot of people used to Doc in novelization forms, because Comics require a slower build up, and have to represent visually as well.....To relate a strong novelized force into a comic presentation is a lot more difficult then people really think. It's also a reason why a lot of Comic book characters, don't work well when presented in novelized format, and others can bounce back and forth with relatively no issues......

 

So far, I have to say I'm havign a good time with this material. I really hope it catches on (and there is enough there once they are past the build up, to catch). Either way, I'm having fun with it, and now that I have more free time on my hands thanks to shifty union folks ( )

 

~Rex

[Guest steamteck]

Re: First Wave, the First Review! Discuss, or risk Angering the Golden Tree!

 

Well, I'm having her pick it up.So we'll see where it goes. Now the old Doc Savage comic that Marvel ran back in the day, Ross Audru drew it, I don't remember who wrote it though, I really liked but then they just adapted the source material.

[csyphrett]

Re: First Wave, the First Review! Discuss, or risk Angering the Golden Tree!

 

roy thomas wrote the adaptions for marvel. dennis o'neil and mike barr wrote Doc for DC.

CES

[RexMundi]

Re: First Wave, the First Review! Discuss, or risk Angering the Golden Tree!

 

And all three of them could cast a shadow that if all were right in the world, would smother the likes of Bendis and Loeb to death so I wouldn't have to be afflicted with sub par comic writing anymore.....

 

Starting to think they will hire any hack off the street nowadays....Must be the shoes.

 

~Rex

[Guest steamteck]

Re: First Wave, the First Review! Discuss, or risk Angering the Golden Tree!

 

And all three of them could cast a shadow that if all were right in the world, would smother the likes of Bendis and Loeb to death so I wouldn't have to be afflicted with sub par comic writing anymore.....

 

Starting to think they will hire any hack off the street nowadays....Must be the shoes.

 

~Rex

 

 

I'm with you there QFT

[Guest steamteck]

Re: First Wave, the First Review! Discuss, or risk Angering the Golden Tree!

 

Now for my brutal review of Dr savage #1 ( well maybe not brutal)

 

what was there was actually pretty well done but between the modern decompressed writing style, two stories in one book and the Zatanna preview there was so little all the stories seemed like demos or previews. Doc and his crew seemed fairly in voice though. I don't like the damage done to his infrastructure the first issue though, either we'll have to do without what was lost or it will have to be trivialized, neither option I care for.

 

In the Avenger,I'm glad they changed Josh's horrible last name but I hope his wife ( future wife since they changed a few things there ) shows up, I always liked them as a married couple.

 

Now its nitpicking time.

 

I don't mind them misspelling Nellie's name or making her Asian instead of a blonde white gal but that does typecast the martial artist in the team as Asian. However, Nellie was diminutive, very very beautiful and harmless looking and miss tall buzz cut chick don't cut the mustard.

 

MacMurdle looks like a hippy instead of a fighting Irishman

 

And Smitty, oh my goodness! the real Algernon Heathcote Smith could snap this guy over his knee. If any fictional character looked like a marvel muscle man it was him but this guy doesn't even really stand out from the others.

 

All in all I'm in wait in see mode with the Avenger having to really be good to overcome my nitpicks. The pace needs to pick up also. More per issue.

[RexMundi]

Re: First Wave, the First Review! Discuss, or risk Angering the Golden Tree!

 

Yeah pretty much in lockstep on that one with you. The Pacing needs to pick up from my point of view but when I went over my last review with another well versed in comics friend of mine (one of the c2e2 folk), as he is not....hmmmm......of the pulp mode, he found the pacing to be spot on for folks not already familiar with all the back history, and the changes, to make sense to those same folks as well but understandably infuriating to a few of us sticklers for detail.....

 

On a defensive note, Azzarello is working with his hands tied in some areas with some of the material, and has free reign, with a lot of the rest. THEN, has to get it all to mesh together in the end. Still, Pacing, does need to pick up, and some of the direction changes need some depth.

 

~Rex.....is rating the entire first wave set of material as a group right now, at a 3.75 out of 5. Pacing and less "interuption" would increase that to a 4 easy. 4.5 if they just said "hell with It" and went for broke instead of cautious.