power to delete bank accounts

[azrad]

Experimenting with creating the power to deleted someone's bank accounts/computer records (computer hacking).

 

The power I'm thinking about going with would be a minor transform person -> person with altered perks/complications. One trouble I'm having is how to deal with the range and line of sight issues since these shouldn't impair the owner of the power but transform is touch ranged by default. Any suggestions? Or maybe I should use a different base power?

 

Also any thoughts on how to "heal" the transform "damage"?

 

Thanks.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: power to delete bank accounts

 

That kind of info is almost always recoverable if enough effort is put in, especially if the person keeps good records and has a good paper trail, so unless you want this ability to somehow also make all the bank tellers forget the target and all his bank statements also mysteriously disappear, I would suggest simply using the computer programming skill or a mental power usable only versus computers defined as super-hacking.

[kahuna's bro]

Re: power to delete bank accounts

 

thats not a power thats embezelment

[bigbywolfe]

Re: power to delete bank accounts

 

thats not a power thats embezelment

lol. Only if he get's the funds in the accounts he screws up.

[McCoy]

Re: power to delete bank accounts

 

The power I'm thinking about going with would be a minor transform person -> person with altered perks/complications. One trouble I'm having is how to deal with the range and line of sight issues since these shouldn't impair the owner of the power but transform is touch ranged by default. Any suggestions?

Ranged and indirect. Possibly with +0 "out of combat only."

Also any thoughts on how to "heal" the transform "damage"?

Bureaucracy roll with extra time.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: power to delete bank accounts

 

Even with Ranged and Inderect he would need to be able to detect the Character with a Targeting Sense and have the Character be in Range of the Power. That really doesn't do a good job of representing hacking into a computer and messing up their account information. Using Transform this way, if the Target has higher than average Body or Power Defense it's harder to hack their account which really makes no sense. I suppose you could make the Transform NND with the defense being "credit monitoring from FreeCreditReport.com" or some such:doi:.

[McCoy]

Re: power to delete bank accounts

 

Humm, define the "Indirect" as "Extra Dimensional" as the attack takes place "through cyberspace." Targeting RSR, Detective Skills (to get the right bank), Computer Operations, and a heavily modified Security Systems, I would suggest at least a -9. Transformation is ALD, applicable defense being Cash Reserves.

 

Or just call it a plot device.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: power to delete bank accounts

 

I think there's a happy medium between making it that complicated and making it a plot device. The Computer Programing Skill defined as Hacking, or any of the Powers from the Until Superpower Database (and it's 6E equivalent) that allows you to rewrite/delete information in computers would work just fine. Unless this is for a villain that can virtually make you disappear (no SSN, no credit, no bank records, nothing) than I'd just leave the fact that your bank account is frozen in the realm of "Common and Dramatic Sense".

 

If he does go the Transform route, I have to say I like your ALD defense Cash Reserve. That's a nice touch.

[Rapier]

Re: power to delete bank accounts

 

Or just call it a plot device.

 

Yep. A plot device.

 

Firstly, you aren't going to be deleting bank records every mission (or even every couple of missions).

Secondly, you can't just erase someone's bank account. That money has to go SOMEPLACE and that's liable to get you caught.

Thirdly, that's not a power. That's an exercise of a skill or use of a contact.

[Chimera 12]

Re: power to delete bank accounts

 

You don't want to Transform the character for this, assuming you're going for a Power-based approach rather than just using Computer Programming (which already generally covers hacking and could probably be supplemented by an appropriate Knowledge Skill or two).

 

You want to do a (probably Major, going by the Psychic Surgery section in the APG) Mental Transform of the computer holding the relevant information. "Healing" the Transform would be done by restoring the account from backup data or manually once the damage is noticed.

[McCoy]

Re: power to delete bank accounts

 

Secondly' date=' you can't just erase someone's bank account. That money has to go SOMEPLACE and that's liable to get you caught.[/quote']

Exactly how confident of that are you? Yes, I know an audit will turn up the discrepency, sooner or later --

[Rapier]

Re: power to delete bank accounts

 

Exactly how confident of that are you? Yes' date=' I know an audit will turn up the discrepency, sooner or later --[/quote']

 

100% positive. The amount of regulation, verification and business continuity (we used to call it disaster recovery, but the industry decided the terminology was a bit bleak...especially when it started to be used in the regular business cycle as a fallback or switchout) in modern banking is staggeringly ridiculous. Even if you remove all record of the money belonging to Scroogey McPoor the bank will within a short period of time (usually that night when they run their batch cycle) realise that the sum of all accounts < cash on record. If you scotch the systems so that even those are fixed, when they do a continuity check with the backup systems (starting balance from last check + activity != continuity starting balance + activity). If you manage to even scotch the continuity storage, the FDIC or SEC (if not internal accounting) will eventually turn up the discrepancy. You are also talking about systems that are independent and don't interact except in very controlled manners. To even attempt such a thing is not a single hacking event, but probably dozens of separate hacks on totally different systems that are likely not stored in the same place and are accessed and built completely separately and differently (on different hardware, written in different languages and styles and different databases all with their own little legacy quirks).

 

I was the program and project manager for one of the top five investment banks in the world doing systems development for their banking systems. It will be found quickly and rapidly restored. At the most you could expect a moderate amount of inconvenience. In fact, if you were determined to stick it to someone financially you would be better having them declared dead. Even identity theft cases, these days, usually result with the return of the money within a few days (and very commonly within 24 hours). When you are declared dead, it's not long before bank accounts and benefits are terminated. THEN you have to deal with the government who, unfortunately, are not known for their timeliness, responsiveness, helpfulness or effectiveness. I worked with a guy who's father was mistakenly reported as dead when his grandfather died (there was a mixup with the JR/SR). It took him almost a year to get himself declared undead.

 

Imagine going to the bank and being told 'I'm sorry, sir, I can't dispense any cash to YOU since the account holder (who you obviously cannot be) is dead.'

[azrad]

Re: power to delete bank accounts

 

Ok this is what I've come up with so far. I've tried to refocus the power towards just messing up someones records. Maybe getting their bank account temporarily locked or inserting a warrant for the targets arrest into a police database. Basically things that will cause temporary nuances to the target.

 

Power to temporary mess up someone's computer records: (real cost 20 points).

Minor Transform 9d6 (person into person with up to 10 points of altered perks/complications, Healed back by time, computer programming roll, or bureaucracy skill roll.), Improved Results Group (to change perks/complications based on computer records; +1/4), Transdimensional (Single Dimension; cyberspace; +1/2) (79 Active Points); Extra Time (5 Minutes, -2), Limited Power Power loses about half of its effectiveness (requires access to internet, requires knowledge of targets name/personal info; -1)

 

Let me know what you guys think.

[McCoy]

Re: power to delete bank accounts

 

Even identity theft cases' date=' these days, usually result with the return of the money within a few days (and very commonly within 24 hours). [/quote']

Must be nice. Someone stole Will's debt card about a month before he died. Took two weeeks to get that money back in the account. "I'm sorry, but the card owner is unable to fill out this papartwork because he's in a freaking coma!"

[Rapier]

Re: power to delete bank accounts

 

Must be nice. Someone stole Will's debt card about a month before he died. Took two weeeks to get that money back in the account. "I'm sorry' date=' but the card owner is unable to fill out this papartwork because he's in a freaking coma!"[/quote']

 

I had a similar problem a few years back when I was hospitalised with a lung infection. Mom and Dad were trying to take care of the bills and such, but couldn't get anyone to do anything without a Power of Attorney. If I was capable or signing a power of attorney I could have taken care of all of that stuff myself.

 

When I had surgery on my back in April, I made sure that all of that was taken care of.

[Arkham]

Re: power to delete bank accounts

 

5d6 Suppress Wealth Standard Effect (15)

[Cassandra]

Re: power to delete bank accounts

 

It's called Marrage.

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: power to delete bank accounts

 

Of course, rather than erasing the bank account, changing all the information on the account (or transferring the funds into the bank's myriad general ledger accounts) would not result in overall balancing discrepancies, though it would get figured out and corrected eventually.

 

A clever hacker, in-game, could set up scripts to automatically handle things as they get "fixed." For instance, first the individual's account information is changed so the name and address on the account are now different, as are all PIN numbers and online access passwords. Once the name info is corrected, a hold is placed on the account, supposedly from the bank's legal department. (Fixing that should be as easy as swimming in molasses.) After the hold is removed, automatic debits remove all funds from the accounts and send them to fictitious accounts. When those are rejected, the returned funds are re-routed to various general ledger accounts. Etc and so on.

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: power to delete bank accounts

 

Ok this is what I've come up with so far. I've tried to refocus the power towards just messing up someones records. Maybe getting their bank account temporarily locked or inserting a warrant for the targets arrest into a police database. Basically things that will cause temporary nuances to the target.

 

Power to temporary mess up someone's computer records: (real cost 20 points).

Minor Transform 9d6 (person into person with up to 10 points of altered perks/complications, Healed back by time, computer programming roll, or bureaucracy skill roll.), Improved Results Group (to change perks/complications based on computer records; +1/4), Transdimensional (Single Dimension; cyberspace; +1/2) (79 Active Points); Extra Time (5 Minutes, -2), Limited Power Power loses about half of its effectiveness (requires access to internet, requires knowledge of targets name/personal info; -1)

 

Let me know what you guys think.

 

For what it's worth, I think it looks okay. 10 points would work out to 3d6 Unluck, Noncombat Effects Only (-1/2). I'd suggest a litany of woes -- holds on bank accounts, credit cards cancelled, mortgage payments mis-applied, gas and electricity shut-off notices initiated, collection agencies contacted, adding the target to the US No-Fly list, transferring a bunch of traffic and parking tickets to the target, adding him multiple times to every telemarketer's list, and so on.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: power to delete bank accounts

 

Of course, rather than erasing the bank account, changing all the information on the account (or transferring the funds into the bank's myriad general ledger accounts) would not result in overall balancing discrepancies, though it would get figured out and corrected eventually.

 

A clever hacker, in-game, could set up scripts to automatically handle things as they get "fixed." For instance, first the individual's account information is changed so the name and address on the account are now different, as are all PIN numbers and online access passwords. Once the name info is corrected, a hold is placed on the account, supposedly from the bank's legal department. (Fixing that should be as easy as swimming in molasses.) After the hold is removed, automatic debits remove all funds from the accounts and send them to fictitious accounts. When those are rejected, the returned funds are re-routed to various general ledger accounts. Etc and so on.

Exactly. All of which can be done with the Computer Programming Skill (Hacking) or a Mental Power (Machine Class Mind) to alter recorded information or even a Transform vs the computer, not the person, any of which could be bought as a "Super-Skill". You could even tag on Requires a Skill roll with the Skill Roll being Computer Programming or Power Skill: Computer Manipulation if you go the Power route.

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: power to delete bank accounts

 

Exactly. All of which can be done with the Computer Programming Skill (Hacking) or a Mental Power (Machine Class Mind) to alter recorded information or even a Transform vs the computer' date=' not the person, any of which could be bought as a "Super-Skill". You could even tag on Requires a Skill roll with the Skill Roll being Computer Programming or Power Skill: Computer Manipulation if you go the Power route.[/quote']

 

True, and I'm not disputing any of that. As we all know, there's often many ways to simulate the same effects in the HERO system. (Personally, I'd just call it a plot device, unless this is something sought by a player character. It's not clear from the OP that this is the case, though for some reason I'm feeling like it's for an NPC. But for the sake of argument, let's say it's being sought by one of the players.)

 

IMO, both ways (Straight Hacking vs. Cyberspace Transform) are valid, if slightly different. One could look at the Cyberspace version as not really Transforming the target himself (or herself), but rather it's altering the target's internet "persona", hence the Transdimensional. At least, that's the way I'd look at it.

 

The complication (note, I'm not saying a problem) with going the Straight Hacking route is that you do the Transform on *each* computer individually. While more realistic, this would probably drag out the gaming session, though the GM could choose to hand-wave a lot of the details.

 

The Cyberspace version simplifies the whole process, with the added 10 points of Complications/altered Perks allowing the GM the freedom to lay out exactly what happens.

 

In retrospect, I'd say azrad's writeup would require one change -- I'd definately increase the Extra Time, assuming the character is hacking into multiple systems. Five minutes ain't gonna cut it.

 

[Edit: Not having done a lot with Transdimensional, the character might need some sort of extra-dimensional Enhanced Sense to target Transdimensionally.]

 

All of that said, if this was for an NPC, I'd just call it a plot device and not sweat a writeup.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: power to delete bank accounts

 

I just don't see the reason behind trying to Transform the character. Unless it's supposed to be semi-permanent, he doesn't need to have the Complication/Disad Hunted: Police. He just has a warrant out for his arrest. It's something that happens and will (presumably) be resolved. Likewise, do you really need to erase his Wealth Perk and add the Poor Complication? His bank accounts are frozen, how's he going to deal with it? Unless this is supposed to affect the character for a better part of the campaign it just seems overkill to target the character (plus the problems I mentioned before, it shouldn't be harder to erase someone’s digital trail just because they have Power Defense or a higher than average Body). Even with Transdimensional, the way azrad built the power it is affecting the character, who is not in cyberspace, he is in the regular world and most likely out of range of the "attack". If you're going to handwave that part anyway, why write it up at all when there are various other ways to do it? Even a Transform to represent changing the information itself seems to make more sense than Transforming the character. Maybe I'm over-thinking this, but then again, maybe the OP is over-thinking it or looking at it from too much of a meta-game POV.

 

I'm going to fall back on Reason from Effect. Simply put, what is the effect we're looking for? I'd say "being able to change information on a computer" is the goal, not "being able to change a character's life with the SFX being 'I did it with the Internet'". Again, maybe I'm off base or over thinking it.

EDIT: I’m not trying to say mine is the only way to do this. Obviously this is Hero and there are probably a dozen ways to do this (I presented 3 options myself), but for some reason building it as an attack on the character just seems off to me. Obviously the OP is free to choose whatever method he chooses.

[azrad]

Re: power to delete bank accounts

 

Unless this is supposed to affect the character for a better part of the campaign it just seems overkill to target the character (plus the problems I mentioned before' date=' it shouldn't be harder to erase someone’s digital trail just because they have Power Defense or a higher than average Body). Even with Transdimensional, the way azrad built the power it is affecting the character, who is not [i']in[/i] cyberspace, he is in the regular world and most likely out of range of the "attack". If you're going to handwave that part anyway, why write it up at all when there are various other ways to do it? Even a Transform to represent changing the information itself seems to make more sense than Transforming the character. Maybe I'm over-thinking this, but then again, maybe the OP is over-thinking it or looking at it from too much of a meta-game POV.

Yeah I would agree these are valid criticisms that do bother me. Maybe it would be best to just resolve this as a sheer folly skill roll (with PS:computer hacking or computer programming).

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: power to delete bank accounts

 

As an aside, I should note that I have yet to run anything involving cyberspace or any cyberpunk-style hacking. If I did (or when I do), I'd probably handle it like I do Telepathy.

 

In my games, when a player character is using "standard" Telepathy*, he/she has to roleplay out being in the target's mind. For example, in a 4th edition game Lethean used Telepathy on Armstrong, leader of VIPER-Force Two. Inside Armstrong's mind, Lethean found himself in a VIPER base, walking alongside Armstrong. His telepathic search of Armstrong's mind was handled like a combination conversation/show-and-tell, with me making EGO rolls to see how much to reveal or not reveal to Lethean. And when Armstrong finally rolled well enough to break the Telepathic link, IIRC the base went on alert and the "agents" all started blasting at Lethean.

 

So perhaps that's why I'm more amenable to the Transdimensional version of hacking. I'm seeing that as a way to do something similar with "super-hacking."

 

*I say "standard" Telepathy, since I've had players use Telepathy to simulate subliminal questioning of a sleeping subject, or in the current game the luck-based character Serendipity can give targets the "bad luck" of blurting out things they really shouldn't be saying or answering questions they probably wouldn't otherwise. This is an entirely different type of roleplaying fun.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: power to delete bank accounts

 

This power is highly genre dependant. I guess the big question, is what is the effect of deleting someone's bank account in the genre? In "Burn Notice HERO" it is asking your PCs to not buy wealth, and perhapse take a Complication because of it, in Leverage HERO, Hartisan is making SS: Super Hacking rolls, or possibly a version of transform.