6e questions - still no move after attack, expensive movement, defense favored, etc.?

[azrad]

Re: 6e questions - still no move after attack, expensive movement, defense favored, e

 

Perhaps better to buy a Martial Manuever or extra Movement on a Trigger.

 

Although Penalty Skill Levels would help.

Yeah I have a speedster who's patented move is to grab all the focuses of the mooks and dump them into the river/off the roof/whatever on the first phase of combat. +12 penalty skills levels with move by/grab by/move through.

[Ice9]

Re: 6e questions - still no move after attack, expensive movement, defense favored, e

 

As far as movement being too expensive: I just don't see it. For 12 points you can move twice as far/fast as a normal person.

But for 50 points in Strength, you can lift a battleship. For 50 points in Running, you're still only 5x as fast as a normal person - not even much into vehicle speeds.

[megaplayboy]

Re: 6e questions - still no move after attack, expensive movement, defense favored, e

 

I suspect the main reason combat movement is linear is related to practicality. If your movement distance doubled every five points, well, wouldn't take long to create mapping problems.

[azrad]

Re: 6e questions - still no move after attack, expensive movement, defense favored, e

 

But for 50 points of Strength' date=' you can lift a battleship. For 50 points of Running, you're still only 5x as fast as a normal person - not even much into vehicle speeds.[/quote']

Lifting a battleship is not a combat effect. The combat effect of 50 strength is the ability to inflicted 10 more dice of damage.

[Ice9]

Re: 6e questions - still no move after attack, expensive movement, defense favored, e

 

To an extent, that's true - and certainly, move-by damage would have to be recalibrated if movement was made cheaper. However, I don't think you can just dismiss lifting a battleship as "non combat". For one thing, you could drop that battleship on someone, and even if they're tough enough to shrug off the damage, they're still trapped under a battleship that they might not be able to lift.

 

That aside, the lifting aspects of Strength are not in conflict with the direct combat aspects. You don't have to sacrifice punching power to be able to lift a battleship, it's included automatically. With movement, a significantly high NCM would be at the expense of combat movement. And if a "heavy lifting" situation comes up in combat, you don't have to go to 0 DCV and spend several phases shifting up to full strength. The brick can toss that wrecked truck out of the way as a half phase and keep going, whereas the speedster would have to effectively drop out of combat if he wants to chase a truck - and he'd better hope that nobody's shooting at him when he does so.

 

That's not to say that speedsters are ineffective. But it does mean that concepts like "runs at 70mph, including when in combat" are a lot more expensive than "lift a battleship" or "force hardened warriors to surrender by glaring at them - while surrounded and weaponless". To me, that's a little off.

[azrad]

Re: 6e questions - still no move after attack, expensive movement, defense favored, e

 

To an extent' date=' that's true - and certainly, move-by damage would have to be recalibrated if movement was made cheaper. However, I don't think you can just dismiss lifting a battleship as "non combat". For one thing, you could drop that battleship on someone, and even if they're tough enough to shrug off the damage, they're still trapped under a battleship that [i']they[/i] might not be able to lift.

 

If you need 50 strength to lift an object, and you have 50 strength and you then drop that object onto an opponent, it does 10d6 damage, just as if you had punched them. You can always create a situation where power X with 50 points is more useful than power Y. Also don't forget your base DCV is determined by the relative velocity between yourself and the target. So shooting a speedster who is preforming non-combat running is not always as easy as you would assume.

[megaplayboy]

Re: 6e questions - still no move after attack, expensive movement, defense favored, e

 

12m/phase x 2 phases/turn = 24m/turn or 2 m/sec(7.2 kph). For a SPD 6 character, base movement rate = 21.6 kph(a pretty fast pace, about 4.5 min/mile). For 8 points, the character can run 20m/phase, which for a SPD 6 character is a pretty nice pace, about 25mph. For 30 points, a character can fly at a combat speed of close to 40 mph. For 60 points, it goes up to around 80 mph. Considering "norms" are running around at 4 miles per hour, that's pretty dang fast. A 100kg character moving at 60 meters per second(since they can cover that distance in one second, technically) has a kinetic energy of 180 kilojoules, which isn't too shabby, either. Compare with a 60 STR, lifting 100 tons a half meter off the ground--potential energy is around 500 kj, conservative side.

[azrad]

Re: 6e questions - still no move after attack, expensive movement, defense favored, e

 

For what it is worth I don't think we should consider the effects of an increased speed attribute when modeling how valuable movement is. While movement powers scale very well with extra speed so do most other powers.

[Spence]

Re: 6e questions - still no move after attack, expensive movement, defense favored, e

 

Yeah' date=' I have been wondering myself if/when the "attack action ends Phase" sacred cow would be eliminated. It would clean up a bunch of stuff and make some combat much more fluid than it currently is.[/quote']

 

Exactly' date=' which is why I dropped it 20+ years ago with no ill effect.[/quote']

 

Not a big deal. 6E2 pg 19 under tool kitting: acting after attacking. I mentions that if you want a more fluid game you can dispense with the attack ends the move. They also mention that this could lead to balance issues by people attacking twice in one phase, but suggests the GM rules to allow only one attack per phase.

 

Which is the way I have played Hero since 82'ish. You can perform a 1/2 action and attack or attack and perform a 1/2 action, or 2 1/2 actions. But regardless you may only have one attack.

 

So 6th Edition did change from not allowing it. You just have to make the decision

[prestidigitator]

Re: 6e questions - still no move after attack, expensive movement, defense favored, e

 

How's this?

 

Running: 16m, x16 NCM (x32 total); Non-Combat Acceleration/Deceleration (+1)

[72 Active; 72-12=60 Real]

 

That puts a Speed 2 character at about 85 m/s (300 kph, 190 mph) instantaneously (after moving 1m).

[KX_Mushashi]

Re: 6e questions - still no move after attack, expensive movement, defense favored, e

 

I am still somewhat new so forgive me if some of what I am about to say is a little off (still haven't been able to find a group to play in), though I do have experience in other systems as well.

 

As for the deffense being more expensive, I will use DnD 3.5. A +1 to armor is 1,000 gold where a +1 to your weapon is 2,000 gold. Though the +1 for armor is equivelent to a +1 to your DCV or 5 character points, and the +1 to your weapon is +1 Damage class and a +1 OCV also 9 (5 for the OCV and 4 for DC(12 point Weapon Master / 3 since it gives you 3 DC per 12 points) character points total. These are both ignoring the OIF/OAF that the items would get. So if we ignore the +1 OCV of a dnd weapon Defense is more expensive. Now for armor, there isn't a good way to caltulate this out since Damage Ristitance isn't a magical effect for armors it is a Feat or inhearint to the armor, though Adamanite Breast(2 damage reduction for all non spell attacks) plate is 10,200 gold where the normal breast plate is ~350 gold. This equates to about 6 points (3 points per -1 to over all damage and actually cheaper then the +1 DC.)

 

For the movement, the thing is movement is defense as well. If I attack and then move back I can do one of three things next round; move in and attack, half move back and wait, or wait. If I can get out of your range with a half move for two rounds then I can stay out of your range infinitely and since there is no OCV or DCV that I can find for a half move then I can keep hitting you from the extream range of my power and never fear being hit, assuming I have the room to do so. In Shadow Run walking makes your target harder to hit by 1 and running by 2, Battle Tech is about the same. DnD moving doesn't make it harder to hit but then again we are talking 30 in six seconds not 6m (19 feet) in one second and (38 feet running 12m and speed 2 or with speed three 57 feet.) So in DnD you can move 60 feet and attack twice but that 60 feet is a full sprint and not a nice jog.

 

That is how I look at it and personally I like how the hero system did all of these three of these. Though if you want movement after attack house rules always work I just think it requires more tactical to move and then attack all the time then to allow attack and then move with out giving a penalty for moving after you attack.

[azrad]

Re: 6e questions - still no move after attack, expensive movement, defense favored, e

 

How's this?

 

Running: 16m, x16 NCM (x32 total); Non-Combat Acceleration/Deceleration (+1)

[72 Active; 72-12=60 Real]

 

That puts a Speed 2 character at about 85 m/s (300 kph, 190 mph) instantaneously (after moving 1m).

With a velocity based DCV of 9!

[torchwolf]

Re: 6e questions - still no move after attack, expensive movement, defense favored, e

 

Calculating Movement per Segment (6E2 27; expanded in APG 160-161) sidesteps the issue.

 

You can also do the same without using segmented movement, but that becomes slightly more complicated; a flying character who is moving and launching an attack will be at the end point of a Half Move at the beginning of his/her next Phase, while performing the Attack Action at some point during that movement. If that character wants to launch an attack from a specific position, that might mean delaying a few segments until arriving at that position (obviously this also requires permitting a Phase to last until just before the character's next Phase, up to and including delaying the character's next Phase, etc.).

This of course causes some other implications and tactical considerations (such as calculating exact positions during a certain segment in case of an AoE targeting the character, especially if the target wants to attempt a Dive-For-Cover; an Attack will often be taking place at a point of origin near the original location of the Attacker or otherwise at a later segment; etc.).

 

Personally, I feel that segmented movement can allow for a more fluid visualization (as well as sidestep the whole Attack vs Move issue), so I'm willing to take those effects into account, but YMMV; it may also slow down the game considerably.

 

I wouldn't necessarily bother with that level of detail in every campaign though; after all, it depends on the group's mutually agreed level of abstraction vs detail.

[Rapier]

Re: 6e questions - still no move after attack, expensive movement, defense favored, e

 

Perhaps better to buy a Martial Manuever or extra Movement on a Trigger.

 

Although Penalty Skill Levels would help.

 

FYI! Penalty Skill Levels are strictly a no-no for offsetting modifers to OCV/DCV from maneuvers. For this you would need CSLs.

[Rapier]

Re: 6e questions - still no move after attack, expensive movement, defense favored, e

 

I think I would be afraid that combat would turn into a tail chase. I would be afraid that high rates of movement would become market qualifiers. That without them you could constantly remain just out of range of attacking, while your opponents use hit-and-run tactics to demolish you.

 

I think that it might also stack the table in favour of the characters with ranged attacks (vs melee). The melee guy MUST close to melee range, while the ranged guy can keep shooting and moving back. That would be a very powerful benefit, just from the Range Penalties alone. If I can attack you at 8m with no penalty and then move back?

 

I'm not saying that there isn't a way to mitigate these circumstances. Held actions, NCM bursts, teamwork, etc would all do a great deal to even the field. I don't suppose there is much difference. I might even give it a try for a couple of battles and see how it goes. Make the villains fight intelligently and see if I can out-maneuver the PCs through movement.

[azrad]

Re: 6e questions - still no move after attack, expensive movement, defense favored, e

 

FYI! Penalty Skill Levels are strictly a no-no for offsetting modifers to OCV/DCV from maneuvers. For this you would need CSLs.

You got me there, I didn't know that. I just re-read it under 5th and 6th edition. Plain as day in 6th edition. Not clear at all in 5th. What do you think would be appropriate? 3 point CSL's?

[torchwolf]

Re: 6e questions - still no move after attack, expensive movement, defense favored, e

 

IME, just using the normal Phase structure (with that house rule implied) while describing positions per segment made things easier for newer players, so that's what I usually went with.

 

I've used a house rule that altering the movement path requires a Zero-Phase Action, with reasonably good results; using either Segmented Movement or figuring positions per Segment with the normal Phase structure both tended to heavily increase the use of Held Actions.

I should probably have been clearer on what I've personally tried, sorry.

 

I've yet to try out the optional rules from the APG in play by RAW, though.

I agree that the ability to change course in any Segment would impact tactics heavily.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6e questions - still no move after attack, expensive movement, defense favored, e

 

I'm not really sure about the complaint about movement being too expensive. You can double your noncombat speed for 5 points. You can megascale it to hypersonic level speeds by simply doubling the base cost. Most combat maps are about 30 "hexes" (60 meters) to a side' date=' meaning 30 points worth of movement will get you halfway across the map. Keep in mind that movement speed is technically factored into combat damage in a semi-linear fashion(doubling combat velocity will double your damage bonus for move-bys and move-throughs), although if one used the alternate velocity factor rules, I'd tend to agree that this would be less of an issue.[/quote']

 

If anything, movement is "cheaper" where the group switches hexes to 1 meter per to be consistent with the new measurement system, and deal with odd numbers of meters. The distance on the Mat is halved, so half as much movement is actually needed on a tactical scale.

 

But for 50 points in Strength' date=' you can lift a battleship. For 50 points in Running, you're still only 5x as fast as a normal person - not even much into vehicle speeds.[/quote']

 

Lifting a battleship is not a combat effect. The combat effect of 50 strength is the ability to inflicted 10 more dice of damage.

 

I agree with Azrad. You can lift a battleship. For 50 points in Movement, you can have:

 

40 Multipower

4 +40 Meters Running (52 meters total)

4 +13 Meters running, Megascale at +1 on 25 meters Running (25 km per phase)

2 Megascale +2 on 10 meters Running (100,000 km per phase)

 

Just how fast do you need to be to feel "superheroic"?

 

To another issue, if you apply the encumbrance/lifting rules, I believe exerting your full STR for a lift means both your hands are used, your DCV is penalized and your movement is restricted, so NCM penalties apply to both abilities used to their maximum extent.

[megaplayboy]

Re: 6e questions - still no move after attack, expensive movement, defense favored, e

 

Interesting side note for fast ground movement: the "horizon line" of visibility for an average height male is roughly 5 km. If you're moving fast enough(5km/sec), the "vanishing point" is literally 1 second ahead of you. At close to escape velocity(10km/sec), it's only a half second ahead of you. Which means you need Telescopic sight, Rapid perception(sight) and maybe even some danger sense to avoid going splat on a regular basis...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6e questions - still no move after attack, expensive movement, defense favored, e

 

Interesting side note for fast ground movement: the "horizon line" of visibility for an average height male is roughly 5 km. If you're moving fast enough(5km/sec)' date=' the "vanishing point" is literally 1 second ahead of you. At close to escape velocity(10km/sec), it's only a half second ahead of you. Which means you need Telescopic sight, Rapid perception(sight) and maybe even some danger sense to avoid going splat on a regular basis...[/quote']

 

I dislike the over-"realism" or Megascale movement. If I fire flames from my hands, I'm not required to have sufficient Energy Defense to be immune to damage from those flames. Even if I self-immolate with a Damage Shield, I am not requried to pay for sufficient defenses to avoid damage from the flames, nor to purchase Life Support to prevent damage from smoke inhalation or the lack of oxygen as the flames surround my head.

 

The character paid for the power, and should be assumed capable of using it. He should not have to buy other prerequisite powers to be able to benefit from Megascale, any more than he should be required to buy prerequisite powers to be allowed to use his Blast, Force Field or Damage Shield.

[megaplayboy]

Re: 6e questions - still no move after attack, expensive movement, defense favored, e

 

I take your point, but then you're essentially giving the character rapid perception for free. If they can see obstacles in their path clearly while moving at hypersonic speeds, it follows they can also see bullets and missiles even while they are at rest. I don't think it's so much that those abilities would be prerequisites to using the power, as that having the mega-movement power would create a rationale for having or developing those additional abilities.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: 6e questions - still no move after attack, expensive movement, defense favored, e

 

I take your point' date=' but then you're essentially giving the character rapid perception for free. If they can see obstacles in their path clearly while moving at hypersonic speeds, it follows they can also see bullets and missiles even while they are at rest. I don't think it's so much that those abilities would be prerequisites to using the power, as that having the mega-movement power would create a rationale for having or developing those additional abilities.[/quote']

 

Yes, it would follow that a hypersonic character would be able to perceive bullets in flight and the like, but unless he pays points for it, he can't do it. The character may be getting, "Rapid, Sight Sense Group, only to perceive objects in flight path, only to avoid said objects" for free, but it's hardly a game-breaker.

[Rapier]

Re: 6e questions - still no move after attack, expensive movement, defense favored, e

 

I dislike the over-"realism" or Megascale movement. If I fire flames from my hands, I'm not required to have sufficient Energy Defense to be immune to damage from those flames. Even if I self-immolate with a Damage Shield, I am not requried to pay for sufficient defenses to avoid damage from the flames, nor to purchase Life Support to prevent damage from smoke inhalation or the lack of oxygen as the flames surround my head.

 

The character paid for the power, and should be assumed capable of using it. He should not have to buy other prerequisite powers to be able to benefit from Megascale, any more than he should be required to buy prerequisite powers to be allowed to use his Blast, Force Field or Damage Shield.

 

I can agree with that to a degree. But characters whose primary attack is Move Thru frequently buy up their defenses to avoid the consequences of their attack. If a character has a No Range AoE Radius they are going to be taking damage from their attack. For certain types of attacks, there are penalties.

 

I haven't had a character that's had MegaScale movement in quite a while. I've always required the character to have enough sense to see at least one phase of movement ahead.

 

However, I can see throwing that in for free. It's a judgement call.

[prestidigitator]

Re: 6e questions - still no move after attack, expensive movement, defense favored, e

 

It makes sense to allow a certain amount of suitable perception as a built-in cost of very fast movement. Then again, it's pretty stupid to try to fly a jet plane between skyscrapers too. So you may want to remind characters with very, very fast non-combat movement to be careful where and how they use it. Travel between cities? Awesome. Navigating city streets? Might want to tune the speed down a bit for a while if lacking suitable senses and increased maneuverability (Movement Skill Levels, etc.)....

[slaughterj]

Re: 6e questions - still no move after attack, expensive movement, defense favored, e

 

The character paid for the power' date=' and should be assumed capable of using it. He should not have to buy other prerequisite powers to be able to benefit from Megascale, any more than he should be required to buy prerequisite powers to be allowed to use his Blast, Force Field or Damage Shield.[/quote']

 

I generally agree, but could see some exceptions such as if you buy space flight, then you still need to buy life support.