Rapid Clotting

[Steve]

Blood clots at different rates for different people. How would you describe an ability for a given character's blood to clot quickly when wounded? I can see two possible abilities: Does Not Bleed (with Limitations like Extra Time to activate of 1 Turn and only versus wounds of less than 3 BODY or so) and Regeneration (only to stop bleeding). The first one seems a better way to go to me, since clotting is not actually healing damage, just preventing a character from bleeding out.

 

Opinions?

[Ragitsu]

Re: Rapid Clotting

 

I suppose it depends on how intense the ability is. A blood clot on a nicked finger is one thing, a clot on a sliced neck is quite another.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Rapid Clotting

 

I agree. It depends entirely on what exactly you want the power to do. Both are fine methods.

[Rapier]

Re: Rapid Clotting

 

How are you defining 'Bleeding?'

 

a) Do you mean the bleeding damage that occurs when you are < 0 BODY? I asked a while back and 1 BODY / Turn Regen will never heal someone who is at negative BODY until the bleeding stops.

 

Do you mean the option Bleeding rules (6E2, p113)?

 

If you are referring to (a), a Paramedics roll (with it's implied first aid) will stop the loss of BODY from bleeding. If you are referring to (, those rules already specify when bleeding stops (including a method which could easily be described as clotting) including the ability to make a first aid attempt (with a Paramedics roll).

 

Does Not Bleed is definitely cheaper and simpler a build than the 2 BODY Regen that would be required to stop negative BODY loss. The biggest problem is that there is still a lot of resistance from some quarters for using Automaton powers on Characters (especially ones that aren't built as Automatons). Personally I would lean towards Does Not Bleed (Post Seg-12).

 

Note: Something looks odd about the Bleeding Chart on 6E, p113. If you've lost < 5 BODY you only stop bleeding on a roll of 1 (1 in 6), yet if you've taken 6 - 10 BODY you stop bleeding on a roll of 2 - 5 (1 in 3). That first entry must be in error.

[Mr Reasonable]

Re: Rapid Clotting

 

Bleeding remains an oddity in Hero in that it is a meta system; it isn't built using the Hero System, and it could be. Shame.

 

Anyway, regeneration kind of clashes, doesn't bleed plus limitations is great but, despite automaton powers being in with the rest, you're still not really supposed to use them for characters i.e. the people not keen on their use are the developers. A paramedics skill plus modifiers is probably the best bet.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Rapid Clotting

 

Note: Something looks odd about the Bleeding Chart on 6E' date=' p113. If you've lost < 5 BODY you only stop bleeding on a roll of 1 (1 in 6), yet if you've taken 6 - 10 BODY you stop bleeding on a roll of 2 - 5 (1 in 3). That first entry must be in error.[/quote']

 

Something was weird about the one in 5E as well. The chance to stop Bleeding was always higher the worse the wound, which never made sense to me. My house rule was that it would drop to the next lower wound level due to the roll rather than stopping entirely.

[Rapier]

Re: Rapid Clotting

 

Something was weird about the one in 5E as well. The chance to stop Bleeding was always higher the worse the wound' date=' which never made sense to me. My house rule was that it would drop to the next lower wound level due to the roll rather than stopping entirely.[/quote']

 

Yeah. I don't use the Bleeding rules so never looked at it very closely, but did check 5E and it's the same. I also didn't see anything in the errata. I assume it's a typo and that first line should read 1 - 3 or something. I posted in the Rules Forum, but haven't gotten a response yet. It's the weekend, and I guess Steve does deserve a day off every once in a while!

[ghost-angel]

Re: Rapid Clotting

 

Healing in both editions (5 and 6) specifically states it will stop Bleeding.

 

Healing 1D6; Only to Stop Bleeding would be the most straightforward build no matter how you hand Bleeding Rules.

[Rapier]

Re: Rapid Clotting

 

Healing in both editions (5 and 6) specifically states it will stop Bleeding.

 

Healing 1D6; Only to Stop Bleeding would be the most straightforward build no matter how you hand Bleeding Rules.

 

That would take an overt act (actually activating the power). If a character was Stunned or unconscious they couldn't activate it. So it would need a Trigger to be safe.

[Mr Reasonable]

Re: Rapid Clotting

 

It remains messy to build someone who clots faster though; stopping bleeding isn't too much of a problem (although more than it need be in heroic games). What you can not easily do is build someone who stops bleeding on a 1 or 2, for example, or bleeds less often than once per turn.

 

To do that I would use a custom power or talent, and I'd probably anchor it to Life Support, based on the costs for 'no breathing'. Maybe 1 point let's you roll to bleed after an extra turn. For 2 points you get an extra +1 on your roll to stop bleeding.

 

I'd also like to see rules to integrate bleeding as part of an attack. You can do that with damage over time, but getting it to work with the bleeding rules is problematic. For that matter I think the bleeding rules could be looked at again globally but that is outside the scope of this thread.

[Mr Reasonable]

Re: Rapid Clotting

 

It remains messy to build someone who clots faster though; stopping bleeding isn't too much of a problem (although more than it need be in heroic games). What you can not easily do is build someone who stops bleeding on a 1 or 2, for example, or bleeds less often than once per turn.

 

To do that I would use a custom power or talent, and I'd probably anchor it to Life Support, based on the costs for 'no breathing'. Maybe 1 point let's you roll to bleed after an extra turn. For 2 points you get an extra +1 on your roll to stop bleeding.

 

I'd also like to see rules to integrate bleeding as part of an attack. You can do that with damage over time, but getting it to work with the bleeding rules is problematic. For that matter I think the bleeding rules could be looked at again globally but that is outside the scope of this thread.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Rapid Clotting

 

It remains messy to build someone who clots faster though; stopping bleeding isn't too much of a problem (although more than it need be in heroic games). What you can not easily do is build someone who stops bleeding on a 1 or 2' date=' for example, or bleeds less often than once per turn.[/quote']

 

I'd probably go with the Trigger or Persistent Healing (1d6, or maybe 1/2d6 with GM permission), possibly with Extra Time. Maybe add in an Activation Roll if you don't want it to be perfect. Then call it good enough and use the actual effect you are looking for (like increasing the chance the chance the Bleeding stops based on the Bleeding roll). IMO once you've gotten the mechanics pretty darn close, you've simulated well enough to just, "Make it so."

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Rapid Clotting

 

Since a clot is just a natural 'band aid' why not build the effect with Aid instead?

[Mr Reasonable]

Re: Rapid Clotting

 

I'd probably go with the Trigger or Persistent Healing (1d6' date=' or maybe 1/2d6 with GM permission), possibly with [i']Extra Time[/i]. Maybe add in an Activation Roll if you don't want it to be perfect. Then call it good enough and use the actual effect you are looking for (like increasing the chance the chance the Bleeding stops based on the Bleeding roll). IMO once you've gotten the mechanics pretty darn close, you've simulated well enough to just, "Make it so."

 

I quite agree in practice: that works out at about 9 points (or less with extra time or activation rolls), built this way:

 

Healing BODY 1d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates, Character does not control activation of personal Trigger; +3/4) (22 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about two-thirds of its effectiveness (Only to stop bleeding; -1 1/2)

 

which is less than I'd have been willing to pay for it as a part of Life Support. It does not work well for a character who bleeds slowly, but does not necessarily clot any more effectively, but again that is not what was being asked about. I do think it would be nice to see all the mechanical game effects, like bleeding, suffocation, and even endurance and such like actually built using the Hero system (so 'bleeding' would be a damage over time effect triggered by an attack). I can dream...of course that may well double the page count of an already weighty volume!

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Rapid Clotting

 

Why not build it as a Limited version of Does Not Bleed?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Rapid Clotting

 

Good points. Or, if you really want "slower" Bleeding, rather than Bleeding that stops more readily. Just buy the characters some extra (possibly Limited) Recovery.

[Steve]

Re: Rapid Clotting

 

Why not build it as a Limited version of Does Not Bleed?

 

I suggested that in my OP, but it didn't seem to be the popular solution.

[Ragnarok]

Re: Rapid Clotting

 

I suggested that in my OP' date=' but it didn't seem to be the popular solution.[/quote']

 

That's because it was a simple solution. Simplicity doesn't seem to be popular 'round these parts.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Rapid Clotting

 

That's because it was a simple solution. Simplicity doesn't seem to be popular 'round these parts.

 

IMO it's an absolute solution, with no finer grained control. I suppose you could use an Activation Roll, but otherwise any tuning is just going to have to be gut feel rather than being systematic. However, it does provide a good guideline for the maximum cost such an ability should reach before becoming ridiculous.

[Ragnarok]

Re: Rapid Clotting

 

IMO it's an absolute solution' date=' with no finer grained control. I suppose you could use an Activation Roll, but otherwise any tuning is just going to have to be gut feel rather than being systematic. However, it does provide a good guideline for the maximum cost such an ability should reach before becoming ridiculous.[/quote']

 

I understand what you're getting at. Though when you think about it, a clotting ability is pretty absolute. Since it's an "automated" bodily function, there really is no player control.

[Rapier]

Re: Rapid Clotting

 

I suggested that in my OP' date=' but it didn't seem to be the popular solution.[/quote']

 

I liked it, and that's all that matters!