Chris Pearson Posted June 18, 2010 Report Share Posted June 18, 2010 I could not find an answer to this in another thread, so I suppose I will seek one here. After reading the Inventor skill description I am still don't think I understand how or why to use it. If skills like Electronics or Mechanics can already build related items, and Inventor doesn't incorporate that expertise or knowledge, why take Inventor at all? ...Any insight into this would be great, thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Long Posted June 20, 2010 Report Share Posted June 20, 2010 Re: Inventor skill clarification... This sounds to me like a request for a conversation (whether it was specifically intended that way or not ), so I've moved it to the Discussion board. If you want my take on it specifically, I think that Inventor is necessary to transcend the inherent limitations of Skills like Electronics and Mechanics. Using those Skills you could perhaps create a device that's a modification of an existing device, or is closely related to an existing device. To go beyond that, to design/create something that's truly new, requires Inventor. Are there hard and fast rules for this? Nope, not even in The Ultimate Skill/HERO System Skills. Nor do I necessarily think there should be. Some things are so inchoate they need to be left a little more "open" for the GM's judgment. In some campaigns Inventor may be more (or less) crucial than others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmOz Posted June 20, 2010 Report Share Posted June 20, 2010 Re: Inventor skill clarification... Invent to me is the ability to move above the standard levels of technology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xavier Onassiss Posted June 20, 2010 Report Share Posted June 20, 2010 Re: Inventor skill clarification... To put it another way: Electronics/Mechanics are for using existing plans to build devices designed by others. Inventor is for designing new devices (with or without plans), regardless of tech level. Note that I'm not disagreeing with JmOz here; if the campaign allows the use of 'ultra-tech' by PC's, Inventor skill is a good way for them to acquire it. But a new invention could be any tech level: high, average, or even an original 'low tech' design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utech Posted June 20, 2010 Report Share Posted June 20, 2010 Re: Inventor skill clarification... Most practical Skills allow for repair of existing items and, modification within the pool of general knowledge, and light innovation. Invention combines with most practical Skills to allow for drastic modification, quantum leaps in innovation, and the creation of things and/or techniques never before in existence. On a particularly amazing roll (and with a particularly creative group of gamers), it might even create a thing or technique never thought of before... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted June 20, 2010 Report Share Posted June 20, 2010 Re: Inventor skill clarification... Inventor is sometimes a good Overall Skill to use with a Gadget VPP, with an more appropriate detailed skill as a complimentary one. Security Systems if you're inventing a new trap-gadget for example. Sometimes it's just relabled to Gadgeteering, but the idea is the same. Inventor can also be used to go beyond merely technology. I've seen to it used as the Skill required to make new magic spells for instance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted June 20, 2010 Report Share Posted June 20, 2010 Re: Inventor skill clarification... Inventor can also be used to go beyond merely technology. I've seen to it used as the Skill required to make new magic spells for instance. Yeah, I've used it for that. And for magical items as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Pearson Posted June 21, 2010 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2010 Re: Inventor skill clarification... So, in mechanics terms, it would perhaps make sense to utilize an Inventor check prior to any requisite skill check, such as Electronics or Mechanical. The preliminary Inventor check would allow for the fabrication of a unique device or item, giving the crafter the blueprints to do so. Would you build the device using listed Powers as a structure? Say, inventing and then building a device which creates holograms via the Images power? How would one mitigate/regulate the creation process? Would it utilize experience points and, thus, character points? I understand that to create a temporary device, one could build in the Charges Limitation, which may cheapen the cost of any invention. (Though that might turn out rather expensive. It would probably make more sense for such a Gadgeteer style hero to purchase a Variable Power Pool for making on-the-fly devices. I suppose Inventor allows for more of a one-shot or scene-specific solution to a situation or problem, usually prepared in advance.) I am not sure how heavily this aspect will play a role in my campaign, but I can't help considering the possibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted June 21, 2010 Report Share Posted June 21, 2010 Re: Inventor skill clarification... How you utilize the results of Inventor will depend on the campaign. You could use it as a one-shot aspect to create a Plot Device to take down the Bad Guys own Plot Device Doomsday Weapon. Variable Power Pool. Reason to add a slot to a Multipower Pool with Points. Straight purchase of a new Power. Reason to add new Equipment to a Heroic Game To alter an existing piece of equipment for a single scene only. (B.A. probably made use of Inventor a lot for instance.) Whichever leasts upsets the balance of the campaign. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sociotard Posted June 21, 2010 Report Share Posted June 21, 2010 Re: Inventor skill clarification... I think of it as "power skill" by another name, and intended for a specific sort of power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utech Posted June 21, 2010 Report Share Posted June 21, 2010 Re: Inventor skill clarification... Would you build the device using listed Powers as a structure? Say' date=' inventing and then building a device which creates holograms via the Images power? How would one mitigate/regulate the creation process? Would it utilize experience points and, thus, character points?[/quote'] That really depends on what sort of game you want to run. In my experience, Inventor works particularly well with a VPP (technological or magical). Allow the VPP to be changed freely to any existing device but slap on RSR: Inventor to create any device that does not currently exist (or, if you wish, through processes other than those that currently exist). Call the device an unreliable prototype and you have a good reason for it to "disappear" when the player wants to change the VPP. If the player really loves a particular invention, he should save up XP in order to buy it outright as a Power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndianaJoe3 Posted June 21, 2010 Report Share Posted June 21, 2010 Re: Inventor skill clarification... So' date=' in mechanics terms, it would perhaps make sense to utilize an Inventor check prior to any requisite skill check, such as Electronics or Mechanical. The preliminary Inventor check would allow for the fabrication of a unique device or item, giving the crafter the blueprints to do so.[/quote'] I think you and I are thinking along the same lines. I think that Inventor (and Armor/Weaponsmith, maybe Electronics or Mechanics, and assorted PSs) could form the nucleus of a crafting system. You gather your materials, make your skill checks, and you get your widget. Inventor would be the skill to create a new kind of widget. It could be very genre-specific, but maybe Steve can include some guidelines in APG2? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rapier Posted June 21, 2010 Report Share Posted June 21, 2010 Re: Inventor skill clarification... I can't add a whole lot to what everyone is saying. Mechanics and Electronics are about building/fixing the current level of readily available technology. Inventor is just that...inventing. It's creating new stuff. My normal MO is to use the Mechanics/Electronics/etc roll as a modifier for the Inventor roll (since the inventing is the main action). For example: Roll Electronics. The roll modifies the Inventor roll (so if you succeed by 2 your Inventor gets a +2, if you fail by 2 it gets a -2). Roll Inventor. I've got a couple of mages in my current Urban Fantasy/Monster Hunter game. One of them has PS: Mage and a Magic Power Skill (used for the RSR on his MP). These two powers could be used to develop new spells, but at a penalty until he picks up Inventor (renamed Spell Crafter in this instance). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted June 21, 2010 Report Share Posted June 21, 2010 Re: Inventor skill clarification... I see Inventor as basically a prerequisite for creating a new device, technique or piece of technology. One might also need mechanics, electronics, computer programming, systems operation, sciences, engineering skills, or professional skills related to the principles of operation, design or subcomponents of the new invention. I generally modify inventor rolls by Tech level, as follows: Tech Level 0: mundane tech that's been around a few years, may even be slightly obsolete (invention may operate at this level or may just combine tech level 0 devices) --no penalty to roll Tech Level 1: recent tech that's just come out in the past 1-2 years, principles are well-understood, still close to state of the art-- -1 or -2 to roll Tech Level 2: "hot off the shelves" tech that is coming out right now, principles are just being understood more widely, essentially the state of the art-- -3 or -4 to roll Tech Level 3: "coming soon" tech that's coming out in the next 1-2 years, in alpha or beta testing, principles understood by a smallish number of people, the bleeding edge of tech-- -5 or -6 to roll Tech Level 4: "prototype" tech that's not coming out until 3-10 years from now, bugs still being worked out, principles understood by a select few-- -7 or -8 to roll Tech Level 5: "drawing board" tech that's not coming out until a decade or more, there might be design schematics but no working prototypes-- -9 or -10 to roll Tech Level 6: "theoretical" tech, may come out in 25-50 years (or not at all), principles understood to less than 5 people on the planet-- -11 or -12 to roll Tech Level 7: "speculative" tech, 50-100+ years away, based on unproven or unprovable theories, maybe 1-3 people on planet even capable of imagining it -- -13 to -15 to roll So, if you're an airplane designer in WW2, a biplane or slow monoplane fighter is TL 0 to design and invent; a prop fighter competitive with existing field models is TL 1; an advanced prop fighter that's superior to what's in the air now is TL 2; a jet fighter ala the Me 262 might be TL 3; an advanced jet fighter capable of supersonic speed might be TL 4; a hypersonic ramjet craft capable of suborbital flight might be TL 5; a fighter with "stealth" and "supercruise" and "thrust vectoring" tech would certainly be TL 6; and that TL 6 fighter with orbital capability and a fusion powerplant would be TL 7. I also have mods for adapting alien and extradimensional tech, that kinda graft on and extend that scale... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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