Permanent transformation

[Narf the Mouse]

The easiest is just to slap a +2 "Permanent Transformation" on Transform. And, while that could work for most cases, it breaks RAW. There's nothing wrong with that, if done for a reason.

 

However, we can also simulate most permanent transformations within RAW, simply because most of them are because the spellcaster/power user has enough power to make something permanent. In this case, enough AP and enough END.

 

Complete Transformation: Severe Transform 1d6 (Anything into [something], [something]), Constant (+1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2), Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; Item is healed from its transformed state; +1) (45 Active Points)

 

So, your (theoretical) character hits something with Complete Transformation, repeats as needed and, when successful, dumps a ton of END into the power. The end (no pun intended) result is that, every time the "healing" condition applies (Say, normal healing), the transformation is re-applied. Since it's Triggered, for most cases, it may well not even show signs of weakening, especially if the character applied the Transform with more BODY than was needed.

 

The sole case is whether the Transforms would add up like that, or whether an attacker could attack (try to heal) them separately. I would rule that, because the effects of a Transform explicitly add and if the power used and character using it is the same, they're treated as a single power/effect for healing. This question is important, as otherwise, each transform would need its own END, would need to be tracked separately and would need to be dealt with separately.

 

Brain's a bit foggy, so I'll leave it there.

[AlHazred]

Re: Permanent transformation

 

If you, as GM, want a particular effect that you are modelling with Transform to be permanent, then there's nothing stopping you. Whether you're talking 5E or 6E, "heals back normally" (i.e., at REC per month) is only one way to heal back from a Transform. There's got to be a definite condition that reverts you, but there's no telling what it is; for fairness, the GM should make it something you can find out.

 

I think what the problem here is, is defining what effect you want. "Transform" is, after all, just a Power. It's not an end in itself; it's to be used to model whatever effect you're looking for. So, say, changing a man into a frog is a perfectly decent way to use Transform; the reversal condition is "kissed by a princess." Note that there's nothing in there saying the target will "heal back normally" -- if you wait around a few months, all that's going to happen is you're going to get used to eating flies.

 

I had an interesting discussion with Karmakaze regarding the vampire's ability to turn people into more vampires. She recommended a Transform, where the target was a person's body, so "healing back" in that case is just killing them all over again.

[Narf the Mouse]

Re: Permanent transformation

 

If you' date=' as GM, want a particular effect that you are modelling with Transform to be permanent, then there's nothing stopping you. Whether you're talking 5E or 6E, "heals back normally" (i.e., at REC per month) is only [b']one [/b]way to heal back from a Transform. There's got to be a definite condition that reverts you, but there's no telling what it is; for fairness, the GM should make it something you can find out.

 

I think what the problem here is, is defining what effect you want. "Transform" is, after all, just a Power. It's not an end in itself; it's to be used to model whatever effect you're looking for. So, say, changing a man into a frog is a perfectly decent way to use Transform; the reversal condition is "kissed by a princess." Note that there's nothing in there saying the target will "heal back normally" -- if you wait around a few months, all that's going to happen is you're going to get used to eating flies.

 

I had an interesting discussion with Karmakaze regarding the vampire's ability to turn people into more vampires. She recommended a Transform, where the target was a person's body, so "healing back" in that case is just killing them all over again.

What's stopping me is playing within the same rules as the players would.

 

I suppose the effect I'm modeling, then, would be the ability to over-ride the normal methods of reversing transformations, making them, to a greater or lesser extent, "permanent", even if they'd normally be healed. I find rules speculation interesting.

 

That's what I'd call "Munchkin" - Making the condition of ending the transform being a state in which the transform no longer matters. Granted, that is setting dependent - If resurrection is cheap and plentiful, it could certainly work.

[Narf the Mouse]

Re: Permanent transformation

 

I suppose a better answer would include that I'm addressing the thematic and fictional concept of transformations and specifically, ones that are permanent, including irreversible (Without carrying out another complete and irreversible transformation). Concepts like "A transformation of this power cannot be so simply reversed!" to "Well, looks like you're now as much an elf as if you'd been born one."

 

The Transform power, without any advantages and limitations, is one consideration. However, by nature of it always being "healable", it lends itself far more readily to "temporary" transformations; that is to say, "Kiss him and he'll be a prince again. Not necessarily handsome, but a prince." than to "I'd have to craft a whole new spell, to turn a Frog into a Prince Charming that only exists now as something completely different. Which is most unsettling, I can tell you."

[dmjalund]

Re: Permanent transformation

 

you could have a sliding scale of advantages depending on how hard it it to change him/her back and how long it is likely to take, with +2 meaning, you might need an entire campaign to do it.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Permanent transformation

 

An arguably better way to make the Transform permanent would be to define a healing method that is a literal reversal. For example, a Transform that "permanently" Transforms a person into a frog could be healed back by an application of the same or Power, or one specifically designed to reverse it, or by certain obscure means (such as partially reversing time). This is how Transforms work that create lasting physical disabilities: they're Severe Transforms that add a Physical Complication, with the healing method defined as special surgery or the like.

[Narf the Mouse]

Re: Permanent transformation

 

you could have a sliding scale of advantages depending on how hard it it to change him/her back and how long it is likely to take' date=' with +2 meaning, you might need an entire campaign to do it.[/quote']

You could add a 11- roll for +1/4, too. Even if they do the "healing method", they still have to make the roll.

An arguably better way to make the Transform permanent would be to define a healing method that is a literal reversal. For example' date=' a Transform that "permanently" Transforms a person into a frog could be healed back by an application of the same or Power, or one specifically designed to reverse it, or by certain obscure means (such as partially reversing time). This is how Transforms work that create lasting physical disabilities: they're Severe Transforms that add a Physical Complication, with the healing method defined as special surgery or the like.[/quote']

Transform: Gold to Iron, Healed by (Transform: Iron to Gold)? That could work.

[AlHazred]

Re: Permanent transformation

 

Usually I find the healing method of a Transform is generated by the effect I'm trying to model in the first place, with consideration given to the genre/metagenre.

 

• Bright Flash Of Light: Transform sighted target to one with Physical Complication: Blind? Obviously, surgery (Modern Hero), cybereyes (Cyber Hero), cloned transplants (Star Hero), or a "Cure"-type spell that can Heal Limbs (Fantasy Hero) all suggest themselves.
  
• Circean Transmutation: Transform man into pig? A dispel magic (Standard Fantasy, or a special herb that grows only on the mountains (Homeric Hero).
  
• Vampiric Rebirth: Transform human corpse into vampire? Holy wafers in the mouth and chopping off the head/holy water bath/etc. These are things that will not harm "normal" people, so they are effectively "healing methods" for the original Transform.
  
• Philosophers' Stone: Transform base metal into gold? Classically, there were a few reputed cases of this in the literature; I seem to remember a story that someone'd transmuted the lead into gold, but somebody dribbled another Base Material into the mixture and ruined it -- probably a metaphorical transmutation, but there you go.
  

Anyway, that's all I'm saying. If you want mechanical discussion, then it'd be fodder for the mechanics-crunchers in the Hero System Discussions section, youbetcha!

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Permanent transformation

 

Transform: Gold to Iron' date=' Healed by (Transform: Iron to Gold)? That could work.[/quote']I'd want to require some other specific means of reversing the transformation (probably something known only to alchemists), but basically, yeah.

 

Mind you, the reversing Transform wouldn't have to roll for BODY; it would just work.

[Narf the Mouse]

Re: Permanent transformation

 

I'd want to require some other specific means of reversing the transformation (probably something known only to alchemists), but basically, yeah.

 

Mind you, the reversing Transform wouldn't have to roll for BODY; it would just work.

Maybe have a Transform: Metal to Metal?

 

Quite true.

[dmjalund]

Re: Permanent transformation

 

However I feel all reversal conditions aren't created equal, and this should be reflected in the cost of the Transform

[AlHazred]

Re: Permanent transformation

 

However I feel all reversal conditions aren't created equal' date=' and this should be reflected in the cost of the Transform[/quote']That's a valid argument. That inequality can be reflected in 6E on the limited end of the scale with the Rapid Healing Limitation. The Advantaged end of that equation could probably use something.

[Narf the Mouse]

Re: Permanent transformation

 

However I feel all reversal conditions aren't created equal' date=' and this should be reflected in the cost of the Transform[/quote']

Yeah, I'm constantly surprised there aren't any modifiers related to how easy/hard de-transforming is.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Permanent transformation

 

Yeah' date=' I'm constantly surprised there aren't any modifiers related to how easy/hard de-transforming is.[/quote']This might be something to address in APG2.

[Ice9]

Re: Permanent transformation

 

One possibility - Drain has the "Delayed Recovery" advantage. Since the "default" recovery period on Transform is "per month", you could potentially take this advantage to raise it. The only problem is that it might be too cheap - for a +1/2 advantage, they recover on a "per year" basis, and for +1 it would be per decade, IIRC.

[Narf the Mouse]

Re: Permanent transformation

 

One possibility - Drain has the "Delayed Recovery" advantage. Since the "default" recovery period on Transform is "per month"' date=' you could potentially take this advantage to raise it. The only problem is that it might be too cheap - for a +1/2 advantage, they recover on a "per year" basis, and for +1 it would be per decade, IIRC.[/quote']

Not by RAW; by RAW, that advantage isn't available for Transform.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Permanent transformation

 

One possibility - Drain has the "Delayed Recovery" advantage. Since the "default" recovery period on Transform is "per month"' date=' you could potentially take this advantage to raise it. The only problem is that it might be too cheap - for a +1/2 advantage, they recover on a "per year" basis, and for +1 it would be per decade, IIRC.[/quote']

 

I'd suggest it's very expensive. The target stays transformed for the duration of the combat. Once that duration is met, how much does a longer recovery period really mean?

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Permanent transformation

 

Another approach would be to rule that the Transform may not be permanent at the time it's first used, or in the span of a game session, but will eventually "set" over time to become permanent. This need not apply to all Transforms, but only those which the GM rules could logically result in a pemanently altered state for the character, e.g. a change not too radically different from his initial one (human-to-elf or -vampire, not human-to-toad or-rock). I can think of a couple of official rule mechanics which can be used to rationalize and measure the advance to permanency, without bending the RAW severely.

 

One would be to keep track of the normal process of BODY healing by the target, even if that isn't the defined condition for the Transform to be reversed. Once enough time has passed for all the BODY from the Transform to be "healed," the effect of the Transform would essentially be over, and the subject's new form would have become his "true" form -- like grafted tissue which has been replaced by a body's own cells. If the new form's rate of healing would be slower than the original one's, due to higher BODY and/or lower REC, the slower rate would be the one used for this purpose. This approach also adds a sense of urgency to victims of unwelcome Transforms, and could form the basis of a quest to reverse the effect while it's still possible.

 

Another tack, most approprate to characters who have gained additional abilities as the result of being Transformed, is allowing the character to continue to gain Experience Points like any other character. Those points are then applied to "buy" the abilities gained from Transform. Once the character has spent enough CP to pay for the new form he has essentially "bought off" the Transform, so all his new abilities are as much a part of the character as any other CP purchase would be. New Complications added by the Transform may or may not subtract from the target total. Even if the Transform is reversed before the purchase is complete, a GM could still allow the character to retain some abilities already paid for, reflecting the Transform having "set" to that degree.

 

Both of these methods are "creative" applications of the RAW to mechanically justify a permanent Transform, but IMHO are well within the spirit of those rules and of "GM's permission."

[Ice9]

Re: Permanent transformation

 

I'd suggest it's very expensive. The target stays transformed for the duration of the combat. Once that duration is met, how much does a longer recovery period really mean?

It means quite a bit with a Mental Transform into a minion / deep-cover spy / whatnot. Likewise if you want to construct a permanent structure with the aid of Transform.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Permanent transformation

 

It means quite a bit with a Mental Transform into a minion / deep-cover spy / whatnot. Likewise if you want to construct a permanent structure with the aid of Transform.

 

Certainly makes the breakpoint other than "end of combat", but there's still a breakpoint. If the Transform BOD heals per month, how hard is it to reapply it to your minion/deep cover spy every few weeks/months (depending on his REC score - a few applications drop him right back down again). At what point is that permanent structure more cost-effectively purchased with Barrier?

[Markdoc]

Re: Permanent transformation

 

Certainly makes the breakpoint other than "end of combat"' date=' but there's still a breakpoint. If the Transform BOD heals per month, how hard is it to reapply it to your minion/deep cover spy every few weeks/months (depending on his REC score - a few applications drop him right back down again). [/quote']

 

If he's in deep cover probably very difficult indeed.

 

I understand the need for longer-term effects than just "after combat" - I routinely run games that span years of game-time so saying "a couple of week is all you ever need" doesn't cut it. It would often mean the effects vanish from adventure to adventure and sometimes mid-adventure, so it does not model "permanent". For mental effects or adjustment powers, I just buy the fade rate up to a century, typically and say "a century or longer". At that point the utility in buying more is so small it costs no points. Transform however is different, since you cannot buy up the "heal" rate, to make it slower. In that case I simply go for all or nothing and define the trigger to have it reversed.

 

cheers, Mark

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Permanent transformation

 

As a simplistic solution for Transforms, a small Transform (1d6 would do) with a self-resetting Trigger that goes off every week or so, and only works on targets already Transformed to the point the target is fully Tranformed (or whwtever definition you want to apply to a Permanent transform), made 0 END, continuous and persistent (IPE, etc.) would do the trick. Damage over Time might also be useful.

 

But all of these need something to stop the effect, which is probably no different than having a reversal trigger, so why not use the same mechanic?

 

Or, prehaps, a long-term REC drain that only applies for purposes of recovering from the Transfom. That has no reversal condition - they have to recover the REC, and if it recovers per century, that will take some doing.

[Narf the Mouse]

Re: Permanent transformation

 

Another option would be to have the "heal method" be "Target is unwilling to be transformed". A bit cheesy, though.

[ShadowEater]

Re: Permanent transformation

 

Make it 'normal recovery', and link it to a really, really long term REC Drain?

[Lucius]

Re: Permanent transformation

 

Buy it as an all-or-nothing Killing Attack, with the transformation being a Special Effect.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I kill you by turning you into a palindromedary