DnD 3.5 to HERO 5e Conversion

[mattingly]

Re: DnD 3.5 to HERO 5e Conversion

 

Wizard’s Spells

1u Detect Magic (0): Detect (See) Magic, Sense, Discriminatory; Gestures (-¼), Incantations (-¼), 1 Charge lasting 5 Minutes (-¾) [1cc]

1u Flare (0): Suppress OCV 2d6 (Set Effect = -1 OCV), Area Of Effect (One Hex Accurate, +½); Negated by Sight Flash Defense (-½), Incantations (-¼), 1 Charge lasting 1 Minute (-1) [1cc]

1u Light (0): Images, +4 PER; Only to Create Light (-1), Incantations (-¼), OAF (-1), 1 Charge lasting 1 Hour (-¼) [1cc]

1u Mage Hand (0): Telekinesis (0 STR), Fine Manipulation 12-, Area Of Effect (One Hex Accurate, +½); Gestures (-¼), Incantations (-¼), Concentration (½ DCV throughout, -½), 1 Charge lasting 1 Minute (-¾) [1cc]

1u Read Magic (0): Universal Translator; Only for Reading Magic (-1), Gestures (-¼), Incantations (-¼), OAF (-1), 1 Charge lasting 1 Hour (-¼) [1cc]

1u Cause Fear (1): Suppress PRE 6d6, Area Of Effect (One Hex Accurate, +½); Only to Cause Fear (-½), Gestures (-¼), Incantations (-¼), 1 Charge lasting 1 Turn (-1¼) [1cc]

1u Enlarge (1): Growth (2 levels), Usable By Other (+¼), Ranged (+½); Gestures (-¼), Incantations (-¼), OAF (-1), 1 Charge lasting 5 Minutes (-¾) [1cc]

1u Identify (1): Detect Magical Property, Discriminatory, Analyze; Gestures (-¼), Incantations (-¼), OAF (-1), Extra Time (6 Hours, -3½), 1 Charge (-2) [1]

1u Mage Armor (1): Force Field (10 PD/ 10 ED), Usable By Other (+¼); Does Not Stack with Worn Armor (-½), Gestures (-¼), Incantations (-¼), OAF (-1), 1 Charge lasting 6 Hours (-0) [1cc]

2u Magic Missile (1): RKA ½d6, No Normal Defense (ED Force Field, +1), Does BODY (+1), No Range Modifier (+½), Autofire (4 shots, +½), Area Of Effect (One Hex Accurate, +½); 4 Charges (-1), Gestures (-¼), Incantations (-½), Versus Organic Only (-½), Must Fire 4 Charges per Attack (-¼) plus Accurate Skipover Autofire; 1 Charge (-2), Gestures (-¼), Incantations (-½), Versus Organic Only (-½) [1]

1u Ray of Enfeeblement (1): Drain STR 2d6, Returns in 5 Minutes (+½), Ranged (+½), Area Of Effect (One Hex Accurate, +½); 1 Charge (-2), Gestures (-¼), Incantations (-½) [1]

1u Shield (1): Force Wall (0 PD/8 ED), Invisible to Sight (+½), Transparent to Physical Attacks (+½), Personal Immunity (+¼); No Range (-½), Limited Arc (60o, -½), Gestures (-¼), Incantations (-¼), 1 Charge lasting 5 Minutes (-½) [1cc]

1u Hypnotic Pattern (2): Mind Control 6d6, Telepathic (+¼), Personal Immunity (+¼), Explosion (+½); Set Effect (Stand and Stare, -½), Gestures (-¼), OAF (-1), 1 Charge (-2) [1]

1u Invisibility (2): Invisibility to Sight Group, Usable By Other (+¼); Only When Not Attacking (-½), 1 Charge lasting 1 Hour (-¼), Gestures (-¼), Incantations (-¼), OAF (-1) [1cc]

1u Melf’s Acid Arrow (2): RKA ½d6, 2xPenetrating (+1), Continuous (+1), Area Of Effect (One Hex Accurate, +½), No Range Penalty (+½); 1 Charge lasting 1 Turn (-1), Gestures (-¼), Incantations (-¼), OAF (-1) [1cc]

1u Mirror Image (2): Images to Sight and Hearing, -4 PER, 2” Radius (+¼); Set Effect (only of multiple selves, -1), Ablative (-1), 1 Charge lasting 5 Minutes (-¾), Gestures (-¼), Incantations (-¼) plus +4 DCV; Linked to Images (-½), Ablative (-1), 1 Charge lasting 5 Minutes (-¾), Gestures (-¼), Incantations (-¼) [1cc]

1u Tasha’s Hideous Laughter (2): Mind Control 10d6; Set Effect (Laugh Uncontrollably, -½), Ends after 1 Turn (-½), 1 Charge (-2), Gestures (-¼), Incantations (-0), OAF (-1), Not versus Animal Intelligence or Less (-½) [1]

1u Web (2): Entangle 2 BODY 2 DEF, Area Of Effect (4” Radius, +1), Sticky (+½), No Range Penalty (+½); Vulnerability to Fire (-½), Ends after 1 Hour (-¼), 1 Charge (-2), Gestures (-¼), Incantations (-¼), OAF (-1) [1]

1u Displacement (3): Succor DCV 7d6 (standard effect = +4 DCV); Negated by Non-Sight Targeting Senses (-½), OAF (-1), Incantations (-¼), 1 Charge lasting 2 Turns (-1) [1cc]

2u Fireball (3): RKA 1½d6, Area Of Effect (3” Radius, +1), No Range Penalty (+½); Gestures (-¼), OAF (-1), Incantations (-¼), 1 Charge (-1) [1]

2u Fly (3): Flight 15”, Usable By Other (+¼); 1 Charge lasting 1 Hour (-¼), Gestures (-¼), Incantations (-¼) [1cc]

2u Hold Person (3): Entangle 2 BODY 3 DEF, Works Against EGO, not STR (+¼), Takes No Damage from Physical Attacks (+¼), Area Of Effect (One Hex Accurate, +½), No Range Penalty (+½); Gestures (-¼), Incantations (-¼), OAF (-1), 1 Charge (-1) [1]

2u Lightning Bolt (3): RKA 2d6, Area Of Effect (12” Line, +1); No Range (-½), OAF (-1), Gestures (-¼), Incantations (-¼), 1 Charge (-1) [1]

1u Protection from Elements (3): Force Field (0 PD/20 ED); versus Single Chosen Element (-1), Ablative (-1), Gestures (-¼), Incantations (-¼), OAF (-1), 1 Charge Lasting 1 Hour (-¾) [1cc]

2u Dimension Door (4): Teleport 25”, 4x Mass; 1 Charge (-2), Incantations (-¼) [1]

2u Evard’s Black Tentacles (4): Telekinesis (20 STR), Area Of Effect (3” Radius, +1); Activation 11- (against each target, -1), 1 Charges lasting 6 Hours (-0), Gestures (-¼), Incantations (-¼), OAF (-1) [1]

2u Minor Globe of Invulnerability (4): Force Wall (0 PD/16 ED), Transparent to Physical (+½); No Range (-½), Gestures (-¼), Incantations (-¼), OAF (-1), 1 Charge lasting 2 Turns (-1) [1cc]

1u Stoneskin (4): Force Field (30 PD), Hardened (+¼), Usable By Other (+¼); Ablative (-1), 1 Charge lasting 1 Hour (-¼), Gestures (-¼), Incantations (-¼), OAF (-1) [1cc]

2u Cone Of Cold (5): EB 4d6, No Normal Defense (LS: Cold, +1), Area Of Effect (6” Cone, +1); No Range (-½), 1 Charge (-2), Gestures (-¼), Incantations (-0), OAF (-1) [1]

2u Feeblemind (5): Suppress INT, EGO, PRE, and All Non-Physical Skills 3d6, Variable Effect (all at once, +2), Ranged (+½), Area Of Effect (One Hex Accurate, +½); Gestures (-¼), Incantations (-¼), OAF (-1), 1 Charge lasting 6 Hours (-0) [1cc]

2u Wall of Force (5): Force Wall (10 PD/ 0 ED), Affects Desolid (ethereal, +¼), Invisible to Sight (+½), Transparent to Energy (+½); 1 Charge lasting 5 Minutes (-¾), Gestures (-¼), Incantations (-¼), OAF (-1) [1cc]

[mattingly]

Re: DnD 3.5 to HERO 5e Conversion

 

Next, Fighter.

 

Fighter (Dwarf)

Val Char Cost Roll Notes

20 STR 10 13- Lift 400 kg; 4d6 HTH [1]

15 DEX 15 12- OCV: 7*/DCV: 10*

18 CON 16 13-

18 BODY 16 13-

10 INT 0 11- PER Roll: 11-

10 EGO 0 11- ECV: 3

15 PRE 5 12- PRE Attack: 3d6

10 COM 0 11-

8 PD 4 Total: 20 PD (12 rPD)

8 ED 4 Total: 20 ED (12 rED)

4 SPD 15 Phases: 3, 6, 9, 12

8 REC 0

36 END 0

40 STUN 0*

 

Total Characteristics Cost: 85

 

Cost Racial END

5 Darkvision: Nightvision 0

3 Direction Sense: Bump Of Direction 0

-2 Short Legs: Running -1” (5” Total) 1

 

Equipment END

31 +2 Battle Axe: HKA 2d6+1 (3½d6 with STR), Reduced Endurance (0 END, +½); OAF (-1) plus +2 OCV; OAF (-1) 0

12 Battle Axe: HKA 1½d6 (3d6 with STR); OAF (-1) 2

17 Crossbow: RKA 1d6+1, Penetrating (+½); OAF (-1), 12 Charges (-¼), Extra Time (half phase to reload, -½) [12]

30 Mithral Platemail: Armor (12 PD/12 ED), Hardened (+¼); OIF (-½) 0

5 Helm of Thought Shielding: Mental Defense 8 (10 Total); IAF (-½) 0

6 +1 Shield: +3* DCV; OAF (-1), Gestures (throughout, -½) 0

7 Ring of Protection: +2* DCV; IAF (-½) 0

4 Locked Gauntlet: +10 STR, Reduced Endurance (0 END, +½); Only to Resist Disarm Attempts (-2), OIF (-½) 0

 

Feats END

8 Base Attack Bonus: +1* with All Combat

1 Brawling: Maneuver (Use Art Barehanded) 0

4 Charge: Maneuver (+2 OCV, -2 DCV, +½d6K (+2d6) Strike, FMove) 0

5 Combat Reflexes: Rapid Attack (Melee) 0

1 Exotic Weapon Proficiency: WF: Dwarven Battle Axe 0

5 Fearless: +10 PRE; Only for Defense (-1) 0

20 Great Fortitude: Damage Reduction 50%, Physical, Resistant; STUN Only (-½) 0

6 Improved Initiative: Lightning Reflexes +4 with All Actions 0

4 Parry: Maneuver (+1 OCV, +3 DCV, Block Abort) 0

4 Power Attack: Maneuver (-2 OCV, +0 DCV, +½d6K (+2d6) Weapon Strike) 0

3 Cleave: +2 versus Sweep Penalties; Must Stun First Target to Attack Second (-½) 0

3 Improved Critical Hit: Increased STUN Multiplier +1 on any HKA (up to 2d6+1); OIF (-½), Activation 8- (activates if To-Hit Roll is 8 or less, -2) 0

3 Run: 4x Noncombat Movement; Straight Line Only (-½) 0

12 Saving Throw: Damage Reduction 50%, Energy, Resistant; Activation 11- (-1), STUN Only (-½) 0

3 Toughness: +3* STUN

4 Weapon Focus: Maneuver (+3 OCV, +0 DCV, Weapon Strike) 0

3 Weapon Focus: +1* with Axe 0

5 Weapon Specialization (Axes): HKA +1 Pip, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +½); OIF (-½) 0

 

Skills

3 Analyze Stonework 11-

3 Breakfall 12-

3 Climbing 12-

2 KS: Dwarves 11-

2 KS: Stone 11-

2 KS: Axe Fighting 11-

7 Fast Draw (axes) 14-

3 Language: Common (Dwarven is Native)

3 Oratory 12-

3 Paramedic 11-

3 Riding 12-

3 Survival (mountains, caverns) 11-

3 Tactics 11-

3 Teamwork 12-

3 Weaponsmith (axes) 11-

4 WF: Common Melee Weapons, Common Missile Weapons

 

Total Powers & Skills Cost: 265

 

Total Cost: 350

 

250+ Disadvantages

10 Distinctive Features: Good (Not Concealable, Detectable with Unusual Sense)

10 Distinctive Features: Armored Dwarf (Not Concealable, Not Unusual in Some Settings)

10 Enraged: fighting enemy over twelve feet tall (Uncommon), go 11-, recover 14-

5 Physical Limitation: Somewhat Short, Only 5 foot 4 inches (Infrequently, Slightly)

10 Psychological Limitation: Boisterous (Common, Moderate)

25 Psychological Limitation: Chaotic Good (Very Common, Total)

10 Psychological Limitation: Overconfident (Common, Moderate)

5 Rivalry: Professional (with Elves)

15 Vulnerability: 1½x STUN from Critical Hits (Very Common, To-Hit Rolls of 3 or 4)

 

Total Disadvantage Points: 350

 

Fighter is a dwarven warrior. Hailing from the mountain kingdoms, his skill with an axe is unmatched.

 

Personality/Motivation: Fighter is a skilled warrior, and he knows it. He’ll rarely back down from any opponent, and enjoys the call of battle. When not fighting, his confidence shows itself as an overly outgoing nature and a booming voice.

And he’ll be damned if he’ll let the elf show him up….

 

Powers/Tactics: Fighter wields an enchanted battleaxe (and also carries an ordinary battleaxe, as a spare). His skill with the battleaxe is extraordinary; he can hit the nimblest of opponents, and can chop through an iron golem in a single blow.

He is protected by mithral platemail, the pinnacle of the mighty dwarven smiths, as well as a magical shield.

[mattingly]

Re: DnD 3.5 to HERO 5e Conversion

 

Thief (Halfling)

Val Char Cost Roll Notes

10 STR 0 11- Lift 100 kg; 2d6 HTH [1]

20 DEX 30 13- OCV: 7/DCV: 13*

15 CON 10 12-

14 BODY 8 12-

13 INT 3 12- PER Roll: 14- (16- )

14 EGO 8 12- ECV: 5

18 PRE 8 13- PRE Attack: 3½d6

12 COM 1 11-

4 PD 1 Total: 15 PD (11 rPD)

4 ED 1 Total: 15 ED (11 rED)

4 SPD 10 Phases: 3, 6, 9, 12

6 REC 0

30 END 0

30 STUN 0

Total Characteristics Cost: 80

 

Cost Racial END

18 Halfling Size: +2 DCV* plus +2 with Concealment* plus +2 Stealth* 0

4 Keen Hearing: +2 Hearing 0

4 Save Versus Fear: +10 PRE; Only for Defense (-1), Only for Fear-Based Attacks (-¼) 0

 

Equipment END

25 +2 Dagger: HKA 1d6+1 (2d6 with STR), Penetrating (+½), Reduced Endurance (½ END, +¼), Can Be Thrown (+¼); OAF (-1) plus +2 OCV; OAF (-1) 0

12 Venom: HKA ½d6, Increased STUN Multiplier (1d6+3, +1), No Normal Defense (LS; Poison; +1), Does BODY (+1), Continuous (+1); OAF (-1), Linked to HKA (-½), Dagger Must Do BODY or Maximum Damage (-½), Extra Time (full phase to prepare/apply, -¼), 3 Charges lasting 1 Turn (-¾) 0

11 +2 Short Bow: RKA 1d6+1; OAF (-1), 16 Charges (12 standard and 4 silvered, -0), Costs END (-½), Two-Handed (-½) plus +2 OCV; OAF (-1), 16 Charges (-0), Two-Handed Weapon (-½) 2,[16]

8 +3 Leather Armor: Armor (5 PD/5 ED); OIF (-½) 0

8 Ring of Protection: +2 DCV*; IIF (-¼) 0

15 Cloak of Invisibility: Invisibility (Sight Group), Reduced Endurance (0 END, +½); IAF (-½), Only when Not Attacking (-½) 0

2 Masterwork Lockpicks: +2 to Lockpicking; OAF (-1) 0

 

Feats END

6 Alertness: +2 PER 0

24 Evasion: Damage Reduction 50%, Physical and Energy, Resistant; STUN Only (-½), Only versus Area Of Effect and Explosion Attacks (-1) 0

12 Dodge: Combat Luck (6 PD/ 6 ED) 0

6 Improved Initiative: Lightning Reflexes +4 with All Actions 0

10 Lightning Reflexes: +2 with all DEX Rolls* 0

4 Point Blank Shot: Maneuver (+1 OCV, +0 DCV, +0 RMod, +½d6K) 0

3 Far Shot: Maneuver (+0 OCV, -1 DCV, +4 RMod, Weapon Damage) 0

3 Shot on the Run: Maneuver (+0 OCV, +0 DCV, +0 RMod, FMove) 0

5 Rapid Shot: Rapid Fire (Ranged) 0

18 Sneak Attack: Find Weakness 13- with Melee Attacks; Weakness is Not Persistent (-1), Target Must Be Unaware of Attack, Flanked, Attacked from Behind, or otherwise at ½ DCV (-½), Negated by Defense Maneuver (-¼) 0

5 Uncanny Dodge: Defense Maneuver II (can’t be flanked) 0

5 Uncanny Dodge: +2 DCV*; Must Be Aware of Attack (-¼) 0

 

Skills

3 Acrobatics 15-

3 Acting 13-

3 Breakfall 15-

3 Climbing 15-

3 Concealment 14-

3 Contortionist 15-

3 Disguise 13-

3 Fast Draw (Dagger) 15-

2 Language: Thieves Cant (Common is Native)

3 Lockpicking 17-

3 Persuasion 13-

3 Riding 15-

3 Security Systems 15-

3 Shadowing 12-

3 Sleight Of Hand 15-

3 Stealth 17-

3 Streetwise 13-

3 Teamwork 15-

3 Tracking 12-

4 WF: Common Melee Weapons, Common Missile Weapons

 

Total Powers & Skills Cost: 270

 

Total Cost: 350

 

250+ Disadvantages

10 Distinctive Features: Evil (Not Concealable, Detectable with Unusual Sense)

15 Distinctive Features: Short, 3 foot 4 inches (Not Concealable)

15 Physical Limitation: Short, 3 foot 4 inches, takes +3” of Knockback (Frequently, Greatly)

10 Psychological Limitation: Distrustful (Common, Moderate)

10 Psychological Limitation: Greedy and Self-Serving (Common, Moderate)

25 Psychological Limitation: Neutral Evil (Very Common, Total)

15 Vulnerability: 1½x STUN from Critical Hits (Very Common, To-Hit Rolls of 3 or 4)

Total Disadvantage Points: 350

 

Thief (he prefers “Rogue”) is a halfling that happens to be skilled at manual dexterity. Can he help it that other people are so careless with their possessions?

 

Personality/Motivation: Thief looks out for number one. But in order to do that, he understands that it’s best to look out for the rest of his party, too, so that they’ll in turn look out for him. It’s a dangerous world out there, and you can’t trust anyone. So a little guy like himself (not that there’s anything wrong with that) is best served by surrounding himself with “friends” to keep him safe, in exchange for which he does the same… when someone is watching.

 

Powers/Tactics: Thief has a magical dagger, and a few applications of poison that he can smear on it for lethal damage if the dagger penetrates the skin. His primary offense, though, is a good defense. By sticking to the shadows, and dodging from spot to spot, he can sneak up on an opponent and really let them have it when their back is turned.

His other primary safeguard is distance. By using his archery, he can keep himself out of harm’s way, and rack up a good number of kills, or at least assists, for the team.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: DnD 3.5 to HERO 5e Conversion

 

No, I was taking that into account - if it was just a question of RNG limits, then a D&D +20 would be a HERO +18.

 

An 19th level D&D character has the ability to almost always (95%) succeed at something that a 1st-level character has barely any chance at (5%).

Now depending where on the bell curve they lie, the spread could be different in HERO. But +10 is the least bonus you could have to get that effect.

 

 

Um...I don't mean to get into an argument here, and in fact hesitate to even respond as I'm not in the mood to go back and forth on the subject, but no not really.

 

 

There are a number of facets to this you are not considering.

 

On the Bell Curve, with a base of 11-, a +6 bonus grants a 99.5% chance of success...which as an 18 always fails is a close as you are going to get. Further bonuses are only useful to offset penalties or resisted rolls.

 

+10 is essentially equivalent to being able to reliably accomplish "impossible" tasks (which are typically rated as a -10 penalty, though some skills differ).

 

+16 is essentially equivalent to being able to accomplish impossible tasks 99.5% of the time, which few if any GM's would actually allow in practice.

 

Also, aside from typical bonuses, a character can also take extra time on many skills for bonuses, which is very similar to the D&D practice of taking 10 or 20.

 

 

All that aside, in linear systems every bonus is worth as much as the one before it (though you do get a flattening if there is an upper boundary). In a bell curve scenario the first bonus has the most effect, and each additional bonus has a diminishing return. Thus a +1 in D&D is not truly synonymous to a +1 in the HERO System.

 

In the HERO System, most things are resisted in one way or another. What matters is not a final number on either side of the tally, but rather the differential between them. It doesn't matter if you have a 20 OCV if the opponent has a 30 DCV. The important factor is not the size of the bonus that got you to 20 OCV, but rather the difference between 20 and 30 which you will take as a penalty to your resolution. If you pass the point of diminishing returns (extra bonuses to offset potential penalties are not worth their cost per percentile), you are paying a premium for something you will rarely benefit from.

 

In the large, what matters isn't a precise percentile defined probability rate, but how a character compares to the campaign baseline and average. If the baseline is a 3 OCV 3 DCV and the average is is a 5 OCV 5 DCV then a character with a 7 OCV 7 DCV is definitely competent, and a 9 OCV / DCV is really something remarkable. If inflation is allowed, characters will pump more points into their important stats, but the average will go up commensurately. In a linear system, the gap between the bottom and the top grows so great that early "low level" material is actually unusable at "high level" as it doesn't scale. In the HERO System this is much less often the case as the gap is (intentionally) less, and the system self-punishes those who take things to extremes.

 

Anyway, I could go on, but the bottom line is I don't agree with your general premise that direct percentile comparisons are sufficient to base most conversion scenarios upon, though an upfront analysis of same can certainly help inform a more nuanced approach.

[Ice9]

Re: DnD 3.5 to HERO 5e Conversion

 

+16 is essentially equivalent to being able to accomplish impossible tasks 99.5% of the time, which few if any GM's would actually allow in practice.

True - because most HERO campaigns have a much flatter power curve than D&D. You're not going "slightly above average to demigod-like". So if you just wanted to emulate the type of D&D character, it probably wouldn't go this high. But if you wanted to emulate the fact that upper-level D&D characters are undefeatably potent compared to almost everyone, then you do need a fairly large numeric base.

 

 

On the Bell Curve, with a base of 11-, a +6 bonus grants a 99.5% chance of success...which as an 18 always fails is a close as you are going to get. Further bonuses are only useful to offset penalties or resisted rolls.

(bolding mine) Ah, ok, that's where we have a disconnect, I think. I'm looking at a situation like this:

 

* Bob is a 1st level / relative new soldier. In D&D, he has +1 BAB. In HERO, let's say he has an OCV of 5.

* A will-o-wisp is very difficult to hit. In fact, Bob only has a 5% chance to do so.

* So in D&D, that would be AC 21, and in HERO it would be DCV 11.

 

* John is a 19th level / incredibly legendary warrior - he can hit the will-o-wisp 95% of the time.

* Since the will-o-wisp has DCV 11, John needs OCV 15 to do that.

* The difference between Bob and John is +10 OCV.

 

This applies most noticably to OCV/DCV, but it could apply to skills as well, assuming that skills penalties for extremely difficult tasks are being used. So for example, a legendary thief could trivially sneak past some guards that would be almost impossible for a novice (alert guards in a brightly lit hallway, for instance).

 

 

As mentioned before, if what you're looking for is D&D-style characters with a HERO power curve, then odds like this don't apply. But you can't entirely dismiss the power curve as mechanics either. Part of the "feel" of D&D is that characters start out in real danger from a group of angry mud farmers and are eventually yawning at armies of orcs or even demons.

[whitekeys]

Re: DnD 3.5 to HERO 5e Conversion

 

I'm enjoying the banter, but maybe this argument is unresolvable? I mean, we are talking about two different systems that have completely different rules. It's not surprising that they seem unreconcilable.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: DnD 3.5 to HERO 5e Conversion

 

Ok, I see where you are coming from. I address the different conversion styles in this document:

 

System Conversion Styles

 

I tend to go for a Look & Feel / *Analogous conversion rather than a Total conversion. I'll look at mechanical differences and allow it to inform my process a little bit, but I'm bending the source to the target, not the other way around.

 

 

 

*analogous: (adj) similar or correspondent in some respects though otherwise dissimilar.

[BlueCloud2k2]

Re: DnD 3.5 to HERO 5e Conversion

 

Isn't the whole purpose of converting from one system to another to get the Flavor of the converted system to play by the rules of the system converted to?

 

That's the whole purpose of MY Converting things...

[Narf the Mouse]

Re: DnD 3.5 to HERO 5e Conversion

 

It's not the purpose of a total conversion.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: DnD 3.5 to HERO 5e Conversion

 

Isn't the whole purpose of converting from one system to another to get the Flavor of the converted system to play by the rules of the system converted to?

 

That's the whole purpose of MY Converting things...

 

I used to find it suprising as well, but many people seem to go the other way, attempting to make the target map to the source rather than the other way around.

 

I think it probably has more to do with which system a person is most comfortable and familiar with. People in general tend to cleave to the familiar, and if a GM starts converting a campaign that's in progress or as a reaction to a campaign that has just flamed out they are often more saturated in the concepts of that game than the system they are attempting to port it to.

 

Ultimately, people have different motivations and desired outcomes. I convert to assimilate cool concepts and leave mechanics behind whereever possible, primarily to give players who are mechanics agnostic the vaneer of a familar millieu over top of a system I like. But other people have different agendas and I recognize that.

[Ice9]

Re: DnD 3.5 to HERO 5e Conversion

 

Well since the subject seems to have continued, I do disagree on that point - the power curve of D&D is part of the flavor. It's not just a mechanical quirk, it has significant effects on the setting and plot.

 

I mean, take Exalted. A conversion of Exalted where a Solar was in danger from a squad of normal human soldiers would not be correctly capturing the flavor of the game, even if it had many of the other elements. At the high end of the level chart, D&D leans in that direction. Warriors that can literally cut a path through an army. Mages that can destroy cities - or create them from nothing. It isn't the entirety of the game, but it is a component.

 

Now to be fair, it's a somewhat disputed component. Some people view the high end of the curve as an aberration, a bug in the rules. To others, the system is what it is, and trying to say that Aragorn or Conan are 20th level is fitting square pegs in round holes. So you could certainly take the opportunity, when converting material, to remap things to whatever scale you prefer.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: DnD 3.5 to HERO 5e Conversion

 

I think D&D has had so many major changes over the years that instead of attempting to simulate any source material (like the original version did to some extent with LOTR & Narnia) it is now just simulating earlier versions of itself (treating them as a source material of sorts)

 

HERO and many other systems are primarily about simulating an external source material of some sort.

[randian]

Re: DnD 3.5 to HERO 5e Conversion

 

Some people view the high end of the curve as an aberration' date=' a bug in the rules.[/quote']

I've noticed quite a few (perhaps even a majority of) gamers have an almost religious aversion to high-level gaming, whatever the RPG system. It's a point of pride for them that they scrap D&D campaigns at 6th or 7th level. They'd scrap HERO campaigns early too, lest the weight of experience points erase their character's stasis. Some even appear to prefer characters that are incompetent at in-game tasks.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: DnD 3.5 to HERO 5e Conversion

 

I've noticed quite a few (perhaps even a majority of) gamers have an almost religious aversion to high-level gaming' date=' whatever the RPG system. It's a point of pride for them that they scrap D&D campaigns at 6th or 7th level. They'd scrap HERO campaigns early too, lest the weight of experience points erase their character's stasis. Some even appear to [i']prefer[/i] characters that are incompetent at in-game tasks.

 

The GM's I've seen do this state that creating balanced opposition is harder with higher level characters. They are typically 'planners' in their GM'ing style and aren't as comfortable with 'winging it' as some GM's.

 

I don't mean any of that as a criticism. It's just that running a game is a lot of work and different folks have different comfort zones for doing it.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: DnD 3.5 to HERO 5e Conversion

 

Well since the subject seems to have continued' date=' I do disagree on that point - the power curve of D&D [i']is[/i] part of the flavor. It's not just a mechanical quirk, it has significant effects on the setting and plot.

 

I mean, take Exalted. A conversion of Exalted where a Solar was in danger from a squad of normal human soldiers would not be correctly capturing the flavor of the game, even if it had many of the other elements. At the high end of the level chart, D&D leans in that direction. Warriors that can literally cut a path through an army. Mages that can destroy cities - or create them from nothing. It isn't the entirety of the game, but it is a component.

 

Now to be fair, it's a somewhat disputed component. Some people view the high end of the curve as an aberration, a bug in the rules. To others, the system is what it is, and trying to say that Aragorn or Conan are 20th level is fitting square pegs in round holes. So you could certainly take the opportunity, when converting material, to remap things to whatever scale you prefer.

 

 

"Power scale" is implicitly a relative concept, comparing low-power to high-power characters within the same system. Power is measured differently in different systems, and the idea of comparing low to low or high to high across different systems is always an interpretative rather than an absolute process.

 

In the specific case that we are talking about, D&D measures power by aggregation of bonuses, charges (times per day), and survivability while the HERO System measures power by total points relying on the conceit that points on average are equalitative.

 

My D&D to HERO conversion maps high level characters to more points. A "20th Level" character rates 410+ points, for instance (in 5e; if I ever update the conversion to 6e I might even bump it a bit per 6e inflation), while a 1st level character is 125 points. That's a very wide spread and is representative of the extreme power scale typical of the D&D level scheme. I let the point accounting system of HERO deal with power scale rather than attempting to force map the probability model of the linear D&D system into the curve model of HERO. In fact, I deliberately deflate and flatten the distribution significantly to better conform to the bell curve and normalize the scale.

 

I give the following advice regarding BAB:

BASE ATTACK BONUS

Every Class grants Base Attack Bonuses (BAB) as Characters level up, and it is a crucial statistic in D&D 3e as it both controls how accurate a Character is, and also how many Iterative Attacks the Character gained. The number of Attacks aspect of BAB is determined by other factors in the HERO System (and the Class documents for Classes that had a strong BAB progression discuss means to improve their number of attacks).

 

However, to model the accuracy aspect of BAB divide your Character's unmodified Base Attack Bonus by five (5), and give the HERO System version of your Character some combination of Combat Skill Levels (CSL's) that make sense for their attack scheme to equal that number, rounded in the Character's favor.

 

In some cases All Combat Levels (aka 8 point Levels) will be appropriate, but when converting a Character that only uses Ranged Attacks or only uses HtH Attacks it is usually sufficient to give them Ranged or HtH Combat levels (aka 5 point Levels) in order to save points.

 

BASE ATTACK BONUS TO CSL's FORMULA

Base Attack Bonus (BAB) / 5 = +1 CSL of appropriate type

 

 

For Skill Levels I give the following advice:

 

Skill Ranks are harder to convert due to the differences between the d20 linear probability model and the HERO System Bell Curve probability model. In the HERO System the greatest benefit is gained in the first step from an 11- to a 12-.

 

However, as a rough rule of thumb you can divide the D&D 3e Skill Levels (not counting any stat bonuses) by four (4) and buy that many +1 bonuses with the equivalent Skill in the HERO System. As usual, round in the Character's favor.

 

 

But, again, that's how I do it. If you prefer to go the other way and model the probability model of one game into another that's a way to do it and I'm ok with that.

[whitekeys]

Re: DnD 3.5 to HERO 5e Conversion

 

I've noticed quite a few (perhaps even a majority of) gamers have an almost religious aversion to high-level gaming' date=' whatever the RPG system. It's a point of pride for them that they scrap D&D campaigns at 6th or 7th level. They'd scrap HERO campaigns early too, lest the weight of experience points erase their character's stasis. Some even appear to [i']prefer[/i] characters that are incompetent at in-game tasks.

The GM's I've seen do this state that creating balanced opposition is harder with higher level characters. They are typically 'planners' in their GM'ing style and aren't as comfortable with 'winging it' as some GM's.

 

I don't mean any of that as a criticism. It's just that running a game is a lot of work and different folks have different comfort zones for doing it.

 

I agree 100%. You both hit the nail on the head and I think that's more of my style.

 

Well since the subject seems to have continued' date=' I do disagree on that point - the power curve of D&D [i']is[/i] part of the flavor. It's not just a mechanical quirk, it has significant effects on the setting and plot.

 

I mean, take Exalted. A conversion of Exalted where a Solar was in danger from a squad of normal human soldiers would not be correctly capturing the flavor of the game, even if it had many of the other elements. At the high end of the level chart, D&D leans in that direction. Warriors that can literally cut a path through an army. Mages that can destroy cities - or create them from nothing. It isn't the entirety of the game, but it is a component.

 

I agree with this too. And to contrast Kilker Shrike's comment, if I interpreted it correctly, I think this is more of a conceptual result, rather than a statistical probability. Basically, when a character in D&D gets that powerful, he can do those things. When a Hero gets '410-points' can he wade through the masses without much cause for conern? Or are we in agreeance that these are two different systems? (I'm beginning to understand the bell curve thing, I think.)

 

BASE ATTACK BONUS TO CSL's FORMULA

Base Attack Bonus (BAB) / 5 = +1 CSL of appropriate type

How did you come up with this equation, out of curiosity?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: DnD 3.5 to HERO 5e Conversion

 

Depending on their design, a 410 point character is more powerful than standard superheroes. There's also the further consideration that superheroes pay for gear with points while fantasy hero characters typically pay for gear with money. A 410 point killer character can wade thru masses of 75 to 125 point characters (which would roughly map to 0 to 1st level in my conversion) in the HERO System. On the other hand a 410 point librarian almost certainly can't.

 

Here are a couple of high end beaters converted directly out of Ptolus using the material on my site; they both came out around 450 (the Ptolus characters tend to be pretty uber across the board and overrun the point buffers a bit - particularly at the high end). Note: their gear is not calculated into their point total.

 

Lord Durant Khatru 20th level fighter

Kargas the Bold 20th level barbarian

 

They are both pretty burly, and can hack thru chumps no problem. Is a 450 point character vs 125 point characters exactly the same as a 20th level fighter vs 1st level characters? Not exactly; the systems are different. But it is analogous; the 450 point character is significantly more competent and capable than the 125 point characters.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: DnD 3.5 to HERO 5e Conversion

 

How did you come up with this equation' date=' out of curiosity?[/quote']

 

Ran some numbers and found a calculation that mapped decently to an acceptable spread, and also taking into consideration the impact of the total cost.

 

In the HERO System, you are on a budget. You want to get as much as you can afford as is useful. If you get too much of something you overpaid and something else had to suffer for the deficiency. If you get too little you might as well not have invested in it at all and invested your points in something else. The most efficient characters settle into "sweet spots" where they have allocated enough points to something to be reliable in it but not so much that they are lacking in other regards or so little they are unreliable / ineffective.

 

Inflation benefits no one; if all antagonists and protagonists have an OCV / DCV of 10 then its exactly the same as if they all had an OCV / DCV of 3. The difference is, normals are no longer of consideration, and the built in difficulties that are based on expected "normal" ranges are no longer meaningful. But for the main focus of combat resolution, good guys and bad guys, the OCV and DCV cancel out and leave you at 11-. Characters are forced to invest a lot of points into the stats that suffer from inflation for no actual benefit. Expected baseline costs of things that are not inflated skew. For instance, in the OCV / DCV case gross inflation makes variant strategies more cost effective than intended; rather than invest in OCV spend points on Area of Effects, or Mental Powers; rather than DCV invest in defenses or a different mitigation strategy other than not getting hit in the first place. Basically, being an accounting based model, the HERO system starts to decompose when selective inflation runs rampant.

 

I preferred to reduce the spread even more, but some players balked. They like their big numbers; some people never quite figure out that it's all relative. {shrug}

[Killer Shrike]

Re: DnD 3.5 to HERO 5e Conversion

 

Also, a side note, I think 6e does a much better job at throttling CV. When I was doing Here There Be Monsters (which is all post-6e), it required a higher investment of points for an overall lower CV than earlier editions. I was very happy with the overall effect this had on character design and the choices people made when submitting characters as to how much to invest into it.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: DnD 3.5 to HERO 5e Conversion

 

I recalled this doc, which might be relevant:

 

Opposition

[whitekeys]

Re: DnD 3.5 to HERO 5e Conversion

 

Do you mind if I disagree with you? I was in almost total opposition to everything you said in the "D&D Level Oriented Antagonists".

 

Firstly, I think you took a very narrow view of the possibilities Dungeons and Dragons can encompass. Whether your explanation was from personal experience only, or a more thought out opinion, I think it's untrue. Secondly, your description of leveling-up procedures is patently false. In my opinion, if a DM is doing his job correctly, the PCs should not stray too far from each other in terms of power, ability, or experience. The rules also state, that experience is awarded for defeating monsters and completing quests, which the rules then describe as a benefit granted to all characters equally. I realize it's not as obvious from the rules text as it is in Hero System, but Dungeon and Dragons can be a lot more flexible than some think. For example, in a campiagn I am in currently, the DM says we can level up once everyone in the party does something awesome, and we have to state our case to him. You can give a baseline experience per week; you could give experience based solely on roleplaying, or by any type of contribution to the party. But the DM, and the party members, have to make sure the rewards are spread equally and fairly.

I don't find that the gaining of one ability, or spell, or even an entire level, with all of it's bonuses, can render "swathes of opposition obsolete". I will grant that the balancing formulas in D&D 3.5 aren't the greatest, but it's also up to the DM to decide what monsters to pit the PCs against. It's also rather implicit that the PC's judge their circumstances based on realism and roleplaying. They should not assume the power of their opponents and thus are partly responsible for the outcomes. I don't think this issue relates to varying experience point values.

Further, as Characters accrue levels and gain to-hit, number of attacks, saving throw, AC, statistics, and hit point power ups they become increasingly unchallenged by broad categories of opponents as well.

This is true of almost all games, and I daresay it's the whole purpose of those games. To grow and overcome challenges only to rise to a new, more powerful challenge. Can you honestly say that a superhero built with the Hero System rules is challenged equally by their arch nemesis and a normal joe-schmoe from the street? (I actually know a gentleman who dislikes Oblivion because the power levels of the enemies are scaled to match your character's).

[whitekeys]

Re: DnD 3.5 to HERO 5e Conversion

 

The result is a bizarre videogame like situation where as Characters level they often have to go someplace else geographically where there are more powerful threats.

Not necessarily. Again, I think it's a rather narrow view of the game, no offense intended. This idea is completely and utterly up to the DM. I also fail to see why this is problematic in the first place. It has more to do with the adventure, excitement, and drama then it does with a flaw in the experience point/level system.

Basically to keep providing challenges to PC's in a level based game, newer more powerful opponents must be cranked out filling various strata and in sufficient quantity to provide sufficient content for parallel advancement by disparate Characters that have an ever increasing array of odd abilities that become increasingly difficult to plan or play test for.

I feel this is rather rhetorical and almost offensive. Is the hero system really different when you consider the number of Skills, talents, powers and pieces of equipment that any character can obtain? I think it it vastly overshadows the complexity of D&D. I also think the planning and play testing is a matter of experience (real life experience, not point systems). People who knows all the ins and outs of Dungeons and Dragons, and i mean know, probably have no problem. And to all of this I might add that these battles are more about adventure and excitement, not precise equal matchings of apparent power levels. Fighting a Minotaur is cool... I'm gonna kill it easily, but it's still cool.

[whitekeys]

Re: DnD 3.5 to HERO 5e Conversion

 

As a last thought.. have any of you played 4th edition D&D? It's not popular, I know, but they did fix alot of the problems we're talking about. Balance issues through the levels and between enemies. I actually encourage everyone to read the DM's Guide.. it has a lot of useful ideas.. despite being crappy 4th ed.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: DnD 3.5 to HERO 5e Conversion

 

It represents some of my opinion(s), formed after years of playing all types of games, including many class and level based ones, and specifically including the following versions of D&D, starting in 1984:

 

Original Red Box D&D

Advanced D&D 1e

"Known World" D&D hardback

Advanced D&D 2e

D&D 3e

D&D 3.5

Pathfinder

 

Not to mention the various videogame versions of D&D, including the classic SSI games, BioWare \ Black Isle games, ToEE, and Neverwinter Nights.

 

I've played in about two dozen different D&D groups, and run so many D&D campaigns that I can't even remember them all without prompting and reference to notes, including three separate campaigns that each lasted over a year of real time near-weekly game play. I'm generally regarded as being an exceptional GM.

 

I could go thru other class and level based games I have direct experience with as well, but suffice to say that I am familiar with the ins and outs of the model, as well as other models offering me a perspective from which to compare and contrast.

 

So, I feel qualified to have an opinion on the subject. You can of course disagree all you like and hold a different opinion.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: DnD 3.5 to HERO 5e Conversion

 

As a last thought.. have any of you played 4th edition D&D? It's not popular' date=' I know, but they [i']did[/i] fix alot of the problems we're talking about. Balance issues through the levels and between enemies. I actually encourage everyone to read the DM's Guide.. it has a lot of useful ideas.. despite being crappy 4th ed.

 

I have no interest in 4e. However, if I ever decide to be involved in a D&D game again it will likely be a Pathfinder based one. The Paizo team have done a pretty good job of making c&l palatable to me by offering a less rigid model.