DnD 3.5 to HERO 5e Conversion

[L. Marcus]

Re: DnD 3.5 to HERO 5e Conversion

 

He is also badass.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: DnD 3.5 to HERO 5e Conversion

 

He is also badass.

 

With a face like that, you pretty much have to become a badass.

[L. Marcus]

Re: DnD 3.5 to HERO 5e Conversion

 

Builds character, kinda thing.

[BlueCloud2k2]

Re: DnD 3.5 to HERO 5e Conversion

 

Wow' date=' am I that ugly?[/quote']

I wouldn't use the word ugly... just lacking a decent COM score...

He is also badass.

There are few as badass as Ron Pearlman. Except Chuck Norris. No one is more badass than Chuck.

With a face like that' date=' you pretty much have to become a badass.[/quote']

Actually, I think his face is a result of his road to badass-ness

Builds character' date=' kinda thing.[/quote']

I'm sure Shrike has all of the Characters he needs... oh wait - you meant Personal Character...

[whitekeys]

Re: DnD 3.5 to HERO 5e Conversion

 

I got a few questions and comments:

 

1. With these racial package deals... would they be something that you would purchase with character points? It seems to me that the benefits one recieved from certain races in D&D might become totally useless in Hero if you had to purchase them. To put that in perspective: a Human race conversion (not that one is necessary) would afford a character extra character points to spend on skills, and perhaps extra character points to spend on 'feats'. It wouldn't really be a package deal that you wouldn't have to purchase at all, and when compared to one that you did have to purchase, it would become rather unbalanced in my opinion. If 50 character points was your base, and Elf would have 33 points when it came time to purchase skills and a Human might have, say... 65?

 

and 2.

-10 Psychological Limitation: Goldlust & Greed (Common, Moderate)

-10 Psychological Limitation: Antisocial and Untrusting (Common, Moderate)

 

I take offense! lmao jk

[whitekeys]

Re: DnD 3.5 to HERO 5e Conversion

 

Ah, I just saw Killer Shrike's Human template. It's really good, but I guess the question of whether these are balanced or not is still up in the air. I guess I think D&D was extremely well balanced, with level adjustment and all that, but you did a fantastic job, Killer Shrike.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: DnD 3.5 to HERO 5e Conversion

 

With these racial package deals... would they be something that you would purchase with character points?

 

Yes, that is exactly how HERO works - you pays your points, you gets your abilities.

 

It seems to me that the benefits one recieved from certain races in D&D might become totally useless in Hero if you had to purchase them. To put that in perspective: a Human race conversion (not that one is necessary) would afford a character extra character points to spend on skills, and perhaps extra character points to spend on 'feats'. It wouldn't really be a package deal that you wouldn't have to purchase at all, and when compared to one that you did have to purchase, it would become rather unbalanced in my opinion. If 50 character points was your base, and Elf would have 33 points when it came time to purchase skills and a Human might have, say... 65?

 

I'm not seeing the problem. If (as an example) a player spends 34 points on the Elf Package Deal (or Template, in 6e), he gets 34 points worth of Characteristics, Skills, Talents, Perks, and Powers. If he wants to play a human, he can spend those points on other Characteristics, Skills, Talents, Perks, or Powers - including duplicating many (or all, if the GM allows) of the ones on the Elf Package Deal. Or, if the GM thinks it's reasonable, he can play an Elf with a completely different set of Characteristics, Skills, Talents, Perks, or Powers.

 

In other words, "Elf" is a special effect - what matters is how you spend your points.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: DnD 3.5 to HERO 5e Conversion

 

Package Deals are not really a 'deal' of any sorts (no points are saved by using them*).

They are just guides or suggested benchmarks for typical members of said group.

 

 

*In earlier editions there was a point savings (above and beyond any suggested Disads/Complications) for taking everything in a 'package' but this was deemed unbalancing since it wasn't counted as a Disad/Complication.

[Susano]

Re: DnD 3.5 to HERO 5e Conversion

 

Package Deals are not really a 'deal' of any sorts (no points are saved by using them*).

They are just guides or suggested benchmarks for typical members of said group.

 

 

*In earlier editions there was a point savings (above and beyond any suggested Disads/Complications) for taking everything in a 'package' but this was deemed unbalancing since it wasn't counted as a Disad/Complication.

 

Which is why I prefer the term "template" instead of "package deal."

[whitekeys]

Re: DnD 3.5 to HERO 5e Conversion

 

Well what if it was the case that certain templates used up all of your base character points? Wouldn't you say that individual was at a certain disadvantage by virtue of the fact that they don't get to choose anything about their character beyond what characteristics they get with the template? I guess that 'balance' I'm refering pretains to the choice a PC makes when deciding which race to choose. Because, if you're running a D&D campaign, then that's part of your character creation, and typically, people chose races based on their compatability with the class choice. So, if I conceptualized my character as being an Elf who had x number of skills, then it would be impossible because I wouldn't have enough character points. I'd then had to switch over to human in order to choose the skills I wanted. Just food for thought.

[Susano]

Re: DnD 3.5 to HERO 5e Conversion

 

Well what if it was the case that certain templates used up all of your base character points? Wouldn't you say that individual was at a certain disadvantage by virtue of the fact that they don't get to choose anything about their character beyond what characteristics they get with the template? I guess that 'balance' I'm refering pretains to the choice a PC makes when deciding which race to choose. Because' date=' if you're running a D&D campaign, then that's part of your character creation, and typically, people chose races based on their compatability with the class choice. So, if I conceptualized my character as being an Elf who had x number of skills, then it would be impossible because I wouldn't have enough character points. I'd then had to switch over to human in order to choose the skills I wanted. Just food for thought.[/quote']

 

I don't know about Killer Shrike's templates, but most Hero System templates are 25-30 points. I've seen some that are more, but when you consider that a starting PC should be 175 points, you should be okay.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: DnD 3.5 to HERO 5e Conversion

 

Well what if it was the case that certain templates used up all of your base character points? Wouldn't you say that individual was at a certain disadvantage by virtue of the fact that they don't get to choose anything about their character beyond what characteristics they get with the template?

 

At this point you've crossed the line between, "template" and, "pre-generated character". It's a non-issue.

 

I guess that 'balance' I'm refering pretains to the choice a PC makes when deciding which race to choose. Because, if you're running a D&D campaign, then that's part of your character creation, and typically, people chose races based on their compatability with the class choice. So, if I conceptualized my character as being an Elf who had x number of skills, then it would be impossible because I wouldn't have enough character points. I'd then had to switch over to human in order to choose the skills I wanted. Just food for thought.

 

Sometimes, a concept just can't be built on the points you have. You either have to scale it back or do something else.

[BlueCloud2k2]

Re: DnD 3.5 to HERO 5e Conversion

 

Ah' date=' I just saw Killer Shrike's Human template. It's really good, but I guess the question of whether these are balanced or not is still up in the air. I guess I think D&D was extremely well balanced, with level adjustment and all that, but you did a fantastic job, Killer Shrike.[/quote']

 

See, I feel the exact opposite about D&D. Especially about Level Adjustment. And Challenge Rating. *shrug*

 

Sometimes' date=' a concept just can't be built on the points you have. You either have to scale it back or do something else.[/quote']

 

Exactly. And the given figures in the templates are just a guideline. You can always sell back some of your stats (for example, maybe you have a "clumsy" elf and sell back those +2 points of Dex and buy 6 points worth of skills). Exactly the same as you might have an Elf that is heartier than his brothers (and has a CON Score of 14 instead of the base value of 8).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: DnD 3.5 to HERO 5e Conversion

 

Oooh! I could argue with you til we're both blue in the face....

 

Whadya mean till?! Have you looked in a mirror lately

 

...says another blue man

HM

[whitekeys]

Re: DnD 3.5 to HERO 5e Conversion

 

I see. I suppose it's just a strange concept to me.

[Armitage]

Re: DnD 3.5 to HERO 5e Conversion

 

Think of it in terms of Level Adjustment.

Two players are creating 8th-level characters.

Player A is creating a human. Player B is creating a Fiendish Half-Dragon Drow.

Player A can create a character with 8th-level class abilities. Player B can only create a 1st-level character.

 

In Hero System, every race essentially has a "Level Adjustment". Points that are spent on racial abilities are points that you don't have available to spend on Characteristics, Skills, and class abilities. The more racial abilities you have, the less powerful you will initially be in other areas. Conversely, the less racial abilities you have, the more powerful you will initially be in other areas.

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: DnD 3.5 to HERO 5e Conversion

 

This still leads to the logic hole that states that an elf with hundreds of years of life experience has fewer skills available to her than a human teenager. It may be necessary for game balance (unless the entire party are elves) but it isn't logical.

[Susano]

Re: DnD 3.5 to HERO 5e Conversion

 

This still leads to the logic hole that states that an elf with hundreds of years of life experience has fewer skills available to her than a human teenager. It may be necessary for game balance (unless the entire party are elves) but it isn't logical.

 

Who says you're playing a hundreds of years old elf? There's also the case of the LOTR party not being very balanced, but the author did manage to give each person a chance to shine. This is something the GM need to decide. Does he limit PCs to maintain game balance or does the allow build to concept?

[Armitage]

Re: DnD 3.5 to HERO 5e Conversion

 

This still leads to the logic hole that states that an elf with hundreds of years of life experience has fewer skills available to her than a human teenager. It may be necessary for game balance (unless the entire party are elves) but it isn't logical.

 

It's an elf.

"Learn to play the lute? I'll get to that in a few years. There's no rush."

It could be part of the mindset of someone who's lifespan is measured in centuries, or millennia, depending on the setting.

 

From the 2e D&D Complete Book of Elves:

"...with centuries at one's disposal, taking a decade or two on a task is nothing to worry about."

[Susano]

Re: DnD 3.5 to HERO 5e Conversion

 

It's an elf.

"Learn to play the lute? I'll get to that in a few years. There's no rush."

It could be part of the mindset of someone who's lifespan is measured in centuries, or millennia, depending on the setting.

 

From the 2e D&D Complete Book of Elves:

"...with centuries at one's disposal, taking a decade or two on a task is nothing to worry about."

 

Which helps explain why the elf has PS: Lute at 18- and not much else.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: DnD 3.5 to HERO 5e Conversion

 

Which helps explain why the elf has PS: Lute at 18- and not much else.

 

In some D&D campaigns, it's more likely to be PS: Loot at 18-, but IMHO that's another good reason to convert to Hero.

[whitekeys]

Re: DnD 3.5 to HERO 5e Conversion

 

Which helps explain why the elf has PS: Lute at 18- and not much else.

 

Burn.

 

This still leads to the logic hole that states that an elf with hundreds of years of life experience has fewer skills available to her than a human teenager. It may be necessary for game balance (unless the entire party are elves) but it isn't logical.

 

Exactly! *hi5*

[Susano]

Re: DnD 3.5 to HERO 5e Conversion

 

Burn.

 

You lost me there. What'd I say that was so bad?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: DnD 3.5 to HERO 5e Conversion

 

On the subject of the Race Packages on my site....

 

 

The subject is discussed in depth in a dedicated document:

Race Package Notes

 

 

The gist of it is, I use Race Packages a little differently than the normal handling of Package Deals.

 

Normally, when you buy a Package Deal, you buy all (or even just some) of the abilities in that Package. Any Disadvantage in the Package are also taken as part of your character's normal Disadvantages, up to the normal Disad max, and any penalties to characteristics are applied to your character's characteristics for the normal point discount.

 

This isn't as modular as it seems on the surface, because if you apply the same Race Package to 2 different characters, you have to take into account where the character sits vis a vis their Disad maximum, and possibly also where the character stands vis a vis sold back Figured Characteristics.

 

It also has the very weird side effect that Races that have a lot of built in baggage in the form of Disadvantages are effectively less distinctive than less encumbered Race packages, as character's of that Race have fewer Disadvantage points available to them after applying the Race Package.

 

As an aside, Characteristic modifiers in Packages don't normally affect Maxima. In my Race Packages, they do modify the Maxima. Thus a Race with +1 STR and -1 DEX also has a Maxima of 21 STR and 19 DEX.

 

So, I treat Race Packages as a true "Package". The Disadvantages and characteristic penalties actually directly subtract from the cost of abilities in that Package, and the cost of the Race Package is the total net cost. Put another way, in more HERO-speak, the Disadvantages in the Race Packages do not count against the character's max Disadvantage points.

 

 

Getting into the point balancing, I worked in a free 25 points of Disadvantages into every Race Package for NCM and the baseline 5 point Distinctive Features (Member of Race). I lowered the base points every character gets by 25 points. A starting FH character using my content is 75 Disad Max (not including Race Package) + 50 Base Points, which would seem to be 125 points on the surface, but as each Race Package has at least 25 points of discount worked into them, its really 75 Disad Max (non-Race) + ~25 Disad (Race) + 50 Base for at least 150 points.

 

Why go thru all that trouble for more or less the same end effect mathematically? Because its not the same. The Race Package can include more than 25 "free points". Some of the more highly advantaged Races have a large number of points in the negative side of the tally, offsetting the cost of their Race abilities.

 

A stock Hill Dwarf has the following, for instance:

 

The standard "free points" worked in to all the Race Packages:

-20 Normal Characteristic Maxima

-5 Distinctive Feature: Dwarf (Concealable w/ Magic, Noticed, Not Distinctive in Some Cultures)

 

 

As well as the more specific:

-5 Physical Limitation: Short but Heavy (4 ft - 5 ft; 250 to 400 lbs)

-5 Psychological Limitation: Insular and Gruff (Uncommon, Moderate)

-2 Slow: -1" Running

-1 Dense Flesh: -1" Swimming

-1 Cumbersome: -1" Leaping

-9 Thick-limbed: -3 DEX

-2 Ruminating: -2 INT

-2 Rough-hewn: -4 COM

 

for 27 additional points.

 

Thus a starting Hill Dwarf using this Package is really a 177 point character.

 

The cost of the Race Package is the net 10 points listed. To have the Package with all of its good stuff and all of its not good stuff costs a flat 10 points, not the normally calculated 67 points of abilities with 17 points of sold-back characteristics and 35 points of Disadvantages of the character's total allowed allotment of 75 Disadvantage points.

 

 

I'll explain more later, out of time.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: DnD 3.5 to HERO 5e Conversion

 

Ok, that didnt take as long as expected. Where were we...oh yeah.

 

So, you're probably thinking, OMG, the Dwarf has more points than some other starting character! Heresy! Unfair, unbalanced! Call the game police! My delicate gaming sensibilities and illusions of equalitativeness are being infringed upon!

 

Or maybe you're just wondering...hmm...is that balanced?

 

Either way, the answer is, no its not really balanced. It is however representative of quite a lot of source material and also offers a more flexible means of modeling various common genre concepts.

 

So...given that it's not balanced point wise, from a purely mathematical perspective, are there any ameliorating or mitigating factors to lessen the imbalance? Yes, there are.

 

The first is that in my scheme the Race Packages are locked, meaning they cannot be modified, and that GM's have total control over which ones are available and what is in them. The GM defines the package (or, if you are using my packages, I did), and any allowable options available to the player taking the package for their character. The player cannot add to, tweak, or modify those Packages in anyway that wasn't previously defined as allowable. Further, as the GM controls what Packages are used and what they are composed of, they can precisely control the variance. If you don't want extreme cases, don't include such Race Packages in the allowed Races selection you offer for your setting. If you do want to allow extreme cases to model some concept important to your setting well then you also have that option. The GM's discretion is the sole arbiter of what is and isn't available in their setting, and this does not change that.

 

The second is that if the GM is doing their job and making sure that players observe their character's Disadvantages, character's carrying extra baggage suffer more encumbrances than character's from races that have less overhead associated with them. This, like all in-game controls, is not enforceable mechanically and is in the hands of the GM.

 

The third is that when I'm running such a campaign, I trim back the XP of character's that have more real points available to them due to a beefy Race Package (or other causes other than earned XP), just a bit. Generally just 1 point less per session, maybe 1.5 or 2 points for the more extreme cases. Such characters are less challenged, in theory, than lesser pointed characters and thus a proration is appropriate. Over a long enough time line the point disparity will even itself out.

 

The fourth is that I ensure, when making the Race Packages, that no race is left out in the cold. They all get something that makes taking that Race Package a sound decision. Humans are no different in this regard, and in fact I offer several available Packages (thus lessening the need for both Race and Culture Packages) and they tend to be very flexible in their make up. For many players in my past campaigns, the question wasn't why wouldn't I take an advantaged Race Package for some free points, but rather why would I want to lock myself into a bunch of pre-selected abilities when I could play a Human and have huge flexibility. Different groups and players will differ, but that's been my experience.

 

 

The more important question to me is, "is it FAIR"?

 

And I think the answer is yes, it is fair. The GM and players are free to work out whatever arrangement best suits their story, campaign, characters, and so forth to make their game fun and interesting. Players all have an equal ability to chose whatever Race Package suits their fancy that the GM allows. Thus if a player wants to grab some points up front at the expense of concept then that's their business, and if a particular advantaged Race is part of a player's concept then they can realize their concept; either way they will then have to carry the weight of the various encumbrances implicit to that Race for the life of that character's play. On the other hand if a player prefers a simpler Race Package with less overhead then they aren't as advantaged as the other dudes character coming out of the gate but neither are they as disadvantaged either. Thus my general statement that "it is assumed to balance out".