Gravity powers

[whitekeys]

I can't seem to find any rules about powers that effect gravity. I'm new to Hero System, so any help would be great!

[ShadowEater]

Re: Gravity powers

 

Lots of options... Flight, Dispel/Drain Flight, Dispel Other's Gravity Effects, Control Environment of a variety of types, Telekinesis of a variety of types, some forms of Density Increase, an Entangle (or Clinging: Usable as Attack),

 

Added goodies for that type of character: Spatial Awareness (sense the gravity fields), Life Support (High Pressure, maybe more), and maybe Environmental Movement for High Gravity?

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Gravity powers

 

"Affecting gravity" is a special effect. What does being able to affect gravity allow the character to do?

[whitekeys]

Re: Gravity powers

 

Lots of options... Flight, Dispel/Drain Flight, Dispel Other's Gravity Effects, Control Environment of a variety of types, Telekinesis of a variety of types, some forms of Density Increase, an Entangle (or Clinging: Usable as Attack),

 

Added goodies for that type of character: Spatial Awareness (sense the gravity fields), Life Support (High Pressure, maybe more), and maybe Environmental Movement for High Gravity?

 

Well, yes, alot of those went through my head. What I was imagining was an all emcompassing gravity-affecting power. The ability to create gravitational pulls/fields or increase/decrease the earth's gravitational pull. So flight wouldn't work. I realize that you could apply the "gravity" special effect, but you can't cause other things to be pulled by gravity using your own flight. You know what I mean? Also, I looked at Density increase and it specifically says that you're not able to use it as an attack. Besides, all you'd really be doing is giving your opponent extra strength and PD; unless you took the corresponding Limitations, which would effectively turn them into Advantages.

I also glanced at Change environment but it didn't seem to have what I wanted. How do you make the club in someone's hand extremely heavy and unruly to use? You could impose OCV penalties to simulate the effect, but then what if he drops it? The Change Environment rules don't dictate how fast it falls, or with how much force.

Clinging simulates gravitational effects but I don't think it could ever pull someone toward something.

Entangle says you can mimick gravitational effects, but I don't see how. Again, it wouldn't necessarily pull someone out of the sky, or pull someone upwards from the ground.

Telekenisis is probably your best bet.. but... then you're telekinetic.

 

I dunno. I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just looking for the simplest way. It seems that if you were to link some of these power, or create a multipower of some sort then it would wind up being too man character points than its worth. What do you think?

[Greywind]

Re: Gravity powers

 

Nothing in this system will stop a power from working entirely unless the power doing so is greater than the other power. You won't stop someone from flying by increasing gravity unless you can counter every point in their flight power.

 

Gravity manip will be a TK variation. You can't really get around it.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Gravity powers

 

Gravity, like magnetism*, is such an all encompassing SFX that to truly cover ALL possible abilities a VPP of some sorts would be necessary. However, it is probably better to start out with a more limited Multipower for a starting character. So the idea would be to focus on the relatively few aspects of the ability you want to start out with. Neat but not necessarily crucial abilities can be added later via more multipower slots (eventually being converted to a Gravity VPP at some point). The trick is figuring out what the minimum number of core abilities in the Multipower will be.

 

*See this magnetism based character built with 5e rules for an idea of how this could be done.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Gravity powers

 

Well, yes, alot of those went through my head. What I was imagining was an all emcompassing gravity-affecting power. The ability to create gravitational pulls/fields or increase/decrease the earth's gravitational pull. So flight wouldn't work. I realize that you could apply the "gravity" special effect, but you can't cause other things to be pulled by gravity using your own flight. You know what I mean? Also, I looked at Density increase and it specifically says that you're not able to use it as an attack. Besides, all you'd really be doing is giving your opponent extra strength and PD; unless you took the corresponding Limitations, which would effectively turn them into Advantages.

I also glanced at Change environment but it didn't seem to have what I wanted. How do you make the club in someone's hand extremely heavy and unruly to use? You could impose OCV penalties to simulate the effect, but then what if he drops it? The Change Environment rules don't dictate how fast it falls, or with how much force.

Clinging simulates gravitational effects but I don't think it could ever pull someone toward something.

Entangle says you can mimick gravitational effects, but I don't see how. Again, it wouldn't necessarily pull someone out of the sky, or pull someone upwards from the ground.

Telekenisis is probably your best bet.. but... then you're telekinetic.

 

I dunno. I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just looking for the simplest way. It seems that if you were to link some of these power, or create a multipower of some sort then it would wind up being too man character points than its worth. What do you think?

 

First, whitekeys, welcome to our community! Don't worry overmuch about being argumentative -- half of all our time here is spent arguing about HERO System. As long as you're polite and respectful toward the folks you argue with, you should have no problem.

 

I find it rather telling that you're both new to HERO, and that you're looking for "an all-encompassing gravity affecting power." No disrespect intended, but this sounds like your experience is with games that would give you a prebuilt something called "gravity powers" with specific game-mechanical effects. HERO doesn't work like that -- it provides you with a great variety of generic Powers with distinct mechanical effects, and lets you choose the ones that best reflect the concept you want to simulate.

 

Let's consider for a moment the Marvel Comics gravity-manipulating villain, Graviton. In his career we've seen him fly -- yes, fly -- using directed gravity; pin his opponents against a vertical surface with intensified gravity; gravitically lift huge objects and throw them at others; deflect attacks with an "intensified gravity field" around his body. All of these things have the "special effect" of gravity manipulation, but each one would probably be best represented by a different Power. Now, it sounds from your examples that you likely wouldn't consider some of these effects to be "appropriate" uses of gravity; but what you consider appropriate could be very different from what another gamer considers appropriate. HERO is open-ended in letting people create the effects that suit their unique conceptualization.

 

You also can't assume that what a Power is called in HERO System defines what it is, other than game-mechanically. The look and feel of a Power can differ greatly from one iteration to another. To use one of your examples, having the Power called Telekinesis does not automatically make you "a telekinetic." Having "telekinesis" as the Special Effect of your Powers makes you a telekinetic; but the SFX of the Telekinesis Power could be gravity or magnetism, or wind, or tentacles, or animated plants (perhaps with some Power Modifiers to give it an appropriate "flavor").

 

Similarly, an Entangle doesn't necessarily "tangle" someone. It's simply the name used for a Power that restrains something, on a "fire and forget" basis, i.e. unlike Telekinesis it doesn't require you to expend Endurance to maintain it. If you want to define one of your gravity powers as holding someone motionless due to increased gravitic pull, while letting you concentrate on other matters entirely, Entangle could work. The method of breaking out of an Entangle may not suit your conception of applied gravity, and that's fair; but it may be very suitable to someone else. And you can always use Modifiers to change Entangle to something closer to what you want. (Besides, there's no such real thing as "gravity control" anyway, so who knows how it should work?)

 

Another key principle of HERO is that "you get what you pay for." If you want Powers of a particular Special Effect to include multiple game-mechanic effects, then you have to pay the Character Points for them. There are many ways to buy such Powers -- separately, as Compound Powers, Linked Powers, in a Power Framework -- with Point costs reflecting their relative flexibility. Maximum flexibility equals maximum cost.

 

Here's another tip which I've found pretty helpful: just because you can stat everything that exists in HERO, doesn't mean you have to. Sometimes it's simplest just to wing it, especially if the circumstance you envision is unlikely to happen often. Referring to your example of wresting a club from someone's hand, but not knowing how fast it falls or with how much force: How often will something or someone be under that falling club important enough for its impact to be calculated? It's part of the rules for Special Effects that they occasionally give minor benefits or drawbacks based on specific situations, without having to account for every possible permutation when building the Power. For the rare occasion when it becomes a factor, just use your common sense.

 

All that said, if you want help working out what Powers would best reflect the particulars of your own concept, or how to deal with odd circumstances that might crop up, we'll be happy to give input.

[whitekeys]

Re: Gravity powers

 

Hey! Thanks for the welcome

 

I appreciate all the info. So how would you build your character that had gravity powers? Seeing as how we've established that "gravity powers" can manifest in all sorts of way, let's suppose that narrow version of the power allows the character to increase or decrease the earth's gravitational pull in areas. So, he choose a spot on the ground, or essentially a vertical cylinder, in which the gravitational forces are increased.

 

What this means: Everyone and Everything in the area becomes heavier and suffers any penalties associated with being heavier.

 

What this doesn't mean: He can't propel himself via gravity. He can't fling this as though they were effected by gravity in a direction that is not down. He can't create gravitational fields that function anything like Barrier.

 

It seems that simple rules on Encumberance could apply. Calculate how much extra gravity is being created, figure out their new weight and assume they're carrying this extra weight as equipment so that they become Encumbered, and they suffer the effects. That's why I think Density increase would be the best, or change environment.

What do you think?

[whitekeys]

Re: Gravity powers

 

Oh, and you would also apply some crushing damage along with the rules for Encumberance.

 

Then, your power would work on everything (similar to No Normal Defence) but stronger characters would fair better, if not negate the gravity, than weaker character.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Gravity powers

 

This is not a slight but you are still doing what most newcomers do. You think of a power you want to buy and what effects that power shoud have.

 

In HERO you need to think of the effects you want your power to have first. Then you buy the powers in the book that have those effects.

 

In one you want to make people have less effective STR (possible through suppress STR) and in another you want to do damage (possibly NND, possibly some AVAD based attack). As such you need to build both effects, not one power that does both.

 

Doc

[whitekeys]

Re: Gravity powers

 

This is not a slight but you are still doing what most newcomers do. You think of a power you want to buy and what effects that power shoud have.

 

In HERO you need to think of the effects you want your power to have first. Then you buy the powers in the book that have those effects.

 

In one you want to make people have less effective STR (possible through suppress STR) and in another you want to do damage (possibly NND, possibly some AVAD based attack). As such you need to build both effects, not one power that does both.

 

Doc

 

I certainly don't want them to have less effective strength, and even if I did, i can only see it effecting thier strength in one direction (down).

 

I don't really see myself doing what you mentioned. I want gravity powers: I want the ability to control the strength at which gravity pulls downward in specific areas, or on specific objects/people. Now.. what Powers do I want to buy that have those effects? That's what I'm asking. The problem is that each suggestion has -other- effects associated with the Power that -aren't- what I had in mind when conceptualizing my gravity powers.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Gravity powers

 

When your hero increases the gravity, what effect do you see that having on the people within the increased gravity?

 

They find it more difficult to carry themselves or anything else. Yes? What thing on the character sheet allows you to carry stuff? STR, yes?

 

They should find it more difficult to jump, to throw things any distance and a number of other things. All of those rely on STR in the game. So, effectively, you are reducing their available STR.

 

What effect do you think the added gravity will have on opponents? When you tell us that, we will be better able to identify how to build what you want.

 

:-)

 

Doc

[whitekeys]

Re: Gravity powers

 

Well, yes, you make a good point. But your idea of a power that suppresses strength has no effect on objects. And also, like I said, assuming we're imagining that the gravity is increased, your Strength Suppression does not aide someone in exerting force in a downward motion.

 

For example, suppose a character is faced with the challenge of holding closed a door to an underground missile silo (which of course is designed to destroy the world, lol). To do this, he basically has to push downward on the double doors as they swing up and open. If I used your Strength Suppression Power, it would render the character unable to accomplish the task because he lacked the strength. Whereas, if the gravity in the area were increased, it should, in fact, help the character accomplish the task because he and gravity are working together to push the doors closed.

 

As another example, suppose a character as just jumped off a building, intending to land on an unsuspecting villian (who is, of course, trying to take over the world, lol). Using your Strength Suppression power, he would be no more effective at doing damage to the villian than if he wasn't being effected by any power - he's simply falling. Whereas, if the gravity in the area were increased, it would pull the falling character with more force, which would increase the damage done.

 

As for the effects that I want the power to have - its fairly simple. I want it to have the same effect that regular gravity has, but simply inceased, as if you had traveled to a planet with increased gravity. I want it to effect objects as much as i want it to effect opponents. Which is really the problem: The effects are so broad that no one power (despite being described as generic) can cover all the different aspects of the gravitational effects. I think Hyper-Man's suggestion of a VPP is the best way to go. My only reservation was that it is very complicated (for me) and rather expensive.

 

*** EDIT: spelling

[Escafarc]

Re: Gravity powers

 

It sounds like TK only to pull straight down to me.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Gravity powers

 

I think that you could use Change Environment for much of it and would allow you to wing many of the less frequent things (like the doors) or added impetus to a movethrough due to increased gravitic acceleration.

 

Doc

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Gravity powers

 

It sounds like TK only to pull straight down to me.

 

Well, if you want to be simplistic about it.

 

I'm sure there is something about area effect TK only being able to affect a maximum weight of the STR - not the full STR on each and every thing within the area.

 

 

Doc

[Escafarc]

Re: Gravity powers

 

Well, if you want to be simplistic about it.

 

I'm sure there is something about area effect TK only being able to affect a maximum weight of the STR - not the full STR on each and every thing within the area.

 

 

Doc

 

true but it's not going to be cheap(nor should it be) to get the effect he's asking for.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Gravity powers

 

gravity is weird. seems to me normal levels of mass shouldn't really matter just area effected. There's really no balanced way to do that. so the limited TK suggestion is best I think. its going to be expensive but it should be.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Gravity powers

 

TK is a clunky way to build a gravity sfx because TK normally requires a Grab to affect targets.

Even if the TK has the AOE Advantage the targets can resist the Grab with their own STR.

One way around this might be NND (5e name for it) or whatever it's called in 6e.

Another way would be Flight with UAA & AOE with appropriate directional Limitations.

That way, a targets STR may let them remain standing (in the case of increased-gravity) but otherwise would have no effect on a reverse-gravity that throws them upward unless they grab something anchored to the ground.

[Escafarc]

Re: Gravity powers

 

But resisting "gravity" with our STR is how we really do it when we move in the real world.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Gravity powers

 

But resisting "gravity" with our STR is how we really do it when we move in the real world.

Which works fine if we are talking about increasing gravity but it doesn't have any effect on reversed-gravity (barring grabbing something anchored to the ground).

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Gravity powers

 

See what I told you about arguing HEROphiles, whitekeys?

 

It sounds like TK only to pull straight down to me.

 

Given what you describe, this sounds like the best fit to me, too. I've often seen published examples of gravity control built this way. It affects living and non-living objects, it requires using sufficient STR to overcome, and it can do "crushing" damage. "Only to pull straight down" is a common Limitation for this effect (usually given as -1 IIRC). That's a great thing about HERO Powers -- you can use Limitations to remove parts of the Power's game mechanics that don't suit what you want it to do, at a Point cost saving. And if there isn't a published Limitation that matches your intent, you can invent a Custom Limitation for it, its cost based on how often/to what degree it restricts the Power (and we can help you assess how much that should be in a given instance, if you want).

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Gravity powers

 

I'm sure there is something about area effect TK only being able to affect a maximum weight of the STR - not the full STR on each and every thing within the area.

 

I believe you're right, but I think that only refers to the maximum total weight you can lift with TK, not how much force you can use to restrain/damage something within the AOE. Perhaps not entirely consistent, but more of a game-balance rule.

 

The Champions Universe villain Gravitar has AOE TK which she uses to hold all objects within it motionless or hold them off the ground.

[Escafarc]

Re: Gravity powers

 

Which works fine if we are talking about increasing gravity but it doesn't have any effect on reversed-gravity (barring grabbing something anchored to the ground).

 

Ok something funny is happening to my posts(I've responded to this post aready and it then disapeared) I agree with you but I think that it would be two differnet powers[most likely in a framework] Tk for down Flight UAA for up

[whitekeys]

Re: Gravity powers

 

Ok something funny is happening to my posts(I've responded to this post aready and it then disapeared

DUDE same thing was happening to me!

 

This is some good banter, Lord Liaden. It's all quite helpful, too. It seems to me that TK is looking like the best fit. Whether I have reservations or not, lol. Although, keep in mind, reverse gravity and no gravity are two different things.

 

P.S. my preferred is still Density Increase UAA :p