END Reserves in 6e - why bother?

[GAZZA]

Here's the thing - in many cases, it would be about the same cost (or even cheaper) to buy personal END/REC than an END reserve. Take Defender for example - Champions6e pp 188 - he has 160 END/30 REC END reserve with an OIF, for 40 points. Instead, he could have bought +160 END/+30 REC, OIF for 41 points.

 

1 point more. Except his personal END is more flexible. It can recover as often as once per phase. He can burn STUN to power powers that draw upon it. Granted, it can't power any Constant abilities if Defender is stunned the way an END reserve can, but unless Defender frequently finds himself in situations where he's stunned or KOed while flying, this isn't really a big selling point (especially since it's not always going to be a good thing).

 

In previous editions END Reserves were cheaper than personal END - they evidently were of the opinion that personal END was generally better than an END reserve, so an END reserve should be cheaper. What's changed? Why are END reserves, with their "only recover once per turn and can't burn STUN" limits, now considered enough better than normal END that it is now more expensive? I get that REC is still cheaper, but even then - it's not as much cheaper as it used to be.

 

To me, it seems that END Reserves are so similar in cost that I can't really see a compelling reason to keep the power - END/REC bought through a focus would surely cover the cases where you couldn't use such things as fuel charges. What am I missing?

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: END Reserves in 6e - why bother?

 

END in a Reserve doesn't drop to zero when you get Knocked Out.

[torchwolf]

Re: END Reserves in 6e - why bother?

 

Not so very long ago (July through August), there was in-depth analysis in this thread:

 

What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: END Reserves in 6e - why bother?

 

Here's the thing - in many cases' date=' it would be about the same cost (or even cheaper) to buy personal END/REC than an END reserve. Take Defender for example - Champions6e pp 188 - he has 160 END/30 REC END reserve with an OIF, for 40 points. Instead, he could have bought +160 END/+30 REC, OIF for 41 points.[/quote']

 

IIRC,END Battery costs 1/4 END (so 40 points) + 1/2 REC (so 15), which should be 37 points, with an OIF (55 base). +160 END would cost 32 (1 point per 5 END) and +30 REC would cost 30, for a total of 62.

 

What's the difference between the abilities? Normal END disappears if the target is KO'd and can't power abilities when the target is Stunned. END Reserve END is persistent, so it does not suffer these drawbacks. Normal END has no advantages over the reserve. I'd say the END price is appropriate. The REC, however, cannot recover STUN, cannot be accelerated by taking Recovery actions, and cannot recover normal END. Perhaps it is more appropriately priced a bit lower, but 5 for 2 points or 3 for 1 point is the cheapest I can see being reasonable.

 

In previous editions END Reserves were cheaper than personal END - they evidently were of the opinion that personal END was generally better than an END reserve' date=' so an END reserve should be cheaper. What's changed? Why are END reserves, with their "only recover once per turn and can't burn STUN" limits, now considered enough better than normal END that it is now more expensive? I get that REC is still cheaper, but even then - it's not as much cheaper as it used to be.[/quote']

 

In previous editions, the END reserve was far too cheap. That 160 END, 30 REC battery would cost 46 points where +160 END cost 80 and +30 REC "END ONLY" would cost another 30, for 110 points. Given the choice, pretty much every character should have sold back their personal END, limited their personal REC to only recover STUN and bought an END reserve instead. Under the 6e rules, both approaches become viable, with different advantages and drawbacks. To me, that is the appropriate result - not that one approach is the clear best structure (and especially not that the "non-personal END" approach is clearly superior).

 

Defender only has to get KO'd to -2 STUN once to see the huge value in his remaining 100+ END not immediately falling to 0.

[GAZZA]

Re: END Reserves in 6e - why bother?

 

Not so very long ago (July through August), there was in-depth analysis in this thread:

 

What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

Awesome, cheers, sorry should have spotted that.

[prestidigitator]

Re: END Reserves in 6e - why bother?

 

Normal END disappears if the target is KO'd and can't power abilities when the target is Stunned.

Very minor point: I believe normal End can now power abilities when you are Stunned, since you can now have Persistent powers that cost End.

 

If the [Persistent] Power costs END to maintain' date=' then it remains turned on as long as the character still has positive END to “fuel” it (he cannot spend STUN in place of END; see 6E2 131). Thus, it continues to function even if the character is Stunned, but turns off if the character’s Knocked Out (since being Knocked Out instantly reduces a character’s END to 0).[/quote']

[Tom Carman]

Re: END Reserves in 6e - why bother?

 

In previous editions' date=' the END reserve was far too cheap. That 160 END, 30 REC battery would cost 46 points where +160 END cost 80 and +30 REC "END ONLY" would cost another 30, for 110 points. Given the choice, pretty much every character should have sold back their personal END, limited their personal REC to only recover STUN and bought an END reserve instead. Under the 6e rules, both approaches become viable, with different advantages and drawbacks. To me, that is the appropriate result - not that one approach is the clear best structure (and especially not that the "non-personal END" approach is clearly superior).[/quote']

 

Uh huh. "Should have sold back their Personal END"... And exactly how often have you seen such structures, incorrigible munchkins excepted? END Reserves don't go away as easily as personal END, but they also don't come back as easily.

 

My current game is still running on mostly 5th Ed rules, and I think my character is the only one with a combat END Reserve (good for roughly 2 Turns all-out). Due to the way we've set things up (triggered teleport to base on KO, like playing CoH), any player who is knocked out is generally out of the fight for at least a Turn. My personal END will be back to full in less time, but my Reserve will have recovered less than a single phase expenditure of END.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: END Reserves in 6e - why bother?

 

Uh huh. "Should have sold back their Personal END"... And exactly how often have you seen such structures' date=' incorrigible munchkins excepted? END Reserves don't go away as easily as personal END, but they also don't come back as easily.[/quote']

 

I haven't seen them in my group, but we also never encountered issues with the Stun Lottery, because our players aren't looking for the most mechanically effective result possible. When the reason you don't see reserves (or anything else) is because it's viewed as a munchkin construct, that's typically because it delivers too much benefit for the cost. Munchkins don't buy overpriced abilities, and they don't tend towards purchases that are priced commensurate with their benefits.

 

My current game is still running on mostly 5th Ed rules' date=' and I think my character is the only one with a combat END Reserve (good for roughly 2 Turns all-out). Due to the way we've set things up (triggered teleport to base on KO, like playing CoH), any player who is knocked out is generally out of the fight for at least a Turn. My personal END will be back to full in less time, but my Reserve will have recovered less than a single phase expenditure of END.[/quote']

 

The "guaranteed not to get attacked right after recovering from KO" aspect of your triggered teleport structure provides the ability to take a phase or two at 0 DCV to recover. Try doing that when you recover with 3 STUN and 3 END in the middle of a combat. It feels a lot better to still have 40 END in the Reserve (which continued to recover if you were KO'd over a Post Segment 12) to power the force field, movement and attacks.

 

And it doesn't matter how fast that reserve recovers when it hasn't been dropped down by being KO'd. The typical character with, say, 23 CON, 10 REC and 46 base END probably spent another 2 and rounded it to 50. Sell it back for 25 points and you can buy a 150 Reserve with 10 REC. This is without limiting your normal REC, which shows even more cheese. We both get 10 END back every PS 12, but the reserve starts with 100 more END. If KO'd, the reserve END is there when you wake up and your normal END is not. You can recover normal END faster if you're OK standing at DCV 0 to do it. Outside combat, it only takes 3 minutes to recover the full reserve, so in combat is the only time speeding recovery makes a lot of difference.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: END Reserves in 6e - why bother?

 

Uh huh. "Should have sold back their Personal END"... And exactly how often have you seen such structures' date=' incorrigible munchkins excepted?[/quote']

While I haven't personally encountered it (I also haven't been able to play with many different groups) a lot of people have. It gets brought up almost every time the price change from 5E to 6E does simply because it was a problem with many people's groups.

 

Also, the example from your campaign does not really help your point since it is so far from the "norm". I've never played in a game where you magically became safe and impervious to injury the moment you got knocked out, and while I'm sure there are other's out there that do something similar, in my years on the board have never come across that type of setup.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: END Reserves in 6e - why bother?

 

Also think about it this way: Defender is a Powered Armor guy. His "Powers" are all technological effects tied in to this armor. The armor itself has a power source (END Reserve) and all its abilities draw from that, not Defender's personal endurance. Thus it is entirely "in character" for Defender to purchase an Endurance Reserve for his character to represent the Armors power supply. Keep in mind that when Defender uses Strength or Movement, his own STR and Running will subtract from his personal END. But the END that powers the bonuses from his armor will come from the END Reserve.

[Sean Waters]

Re: END Reserves in 6e - why bother?

 

The cost of END reserves was a BIG change. END Reserves used to be too cheap, IMO, but have now gone too far the other way. I do get that the cost of END Reserve END reflects Persistent END (although, if you look, characteristics bought as powers are ALREADY persistent), but that fails to take into account the almost inevitable negative double dipping: almost no one is going to have NO personal END, meaning you have to pay for some END twice.

 

ER REC is more of an issue.

 

4 points of REC should cost 5 points (if you buy it persistent - which it is anyway if you buy it as a power (6.1.178) - so to get down to 4 for 3 means that you are effectively building it with a -1.5 to -1.75 limitation 'doesn't apply to STUN'. Come, on, chaps, that has to be worth -1 at the VERY least and should logically be worth a lot more limitation value as STUN costs 2.5x what END does. Then we go back to double dipping. Even if ALL your powers run off your END reserve you'll still have some REC.

 

My view is that the cost has swung too far the other way.

 

Still, that is the way it is.

 

One more point - END = STUN when you recover from unconsciousness is a rule that is there for 'realism' rather than game balance. I'm not sure it even works well for realism. You could argue that you shouldn't have the energy to unload a full force Blast when you have just woken up, but why? By the same token - if you are still a bit groggy - shouldn't you also have limited OCV and DCV? It is an arbitrary rule, and not one that seems to actually serve a purpose.

[Ragitsu]

Re: END Reserves in 6e - why bother?

 

Sean? You're BACK!

[Sean Waters]

Re: END Reserves in 6e - why bother?

 

I am! Did you miss me?

[The Main Man]

Re: END Reserves in 6e - why bother?

 

Well it has been a while, hasn't it?

 

Anyways, to me, the fact that an Endurance Reserve is unaffected by KO seems to be treated as a +1/4 Power Advantage for END, which fits the 1:4 cost.

 

END Reserve REC appears to treat "Impersonal Recovery" as a +1 Advantage as the HERO System often places Advantages at double the absolute value of Limitations (Variable Advantage and Variable Limitation being the most readily referred examples). I'd argue that the fact that Reserve REC doesn't affect STUN does have a value of -1, but END Reserve REC is also unaffected by STUN deficits, which may be like another +1/2 "advantage." So the equation may be something like 1 + 1/2 -1 = +1/2 for a composite value, ergo 1 x (1 + 1/2) = 1.5 points per 1 REC for END Reserve.

[Greywind]

Re: END Reserves in 6e - why bother?

 

I am! Did you miss me?

Every time he pulled the trigger.

[Escafarc]

Re: END Reserves in 6e - why bother?

 

Every time he pulled the trigger.

That's why you nuke'em from orbit, it's the only way to make sure.