Limitations on Combat Skill Levels - same as the attack itself?

[dmjalund]

Re: Limitations on Combat Skill Levels - same as the attack itself?

 

if a reduction of effectiveness of a power a skill refers to should limit the value of the skill, then we would have skill levels in 2d6 HA costing less than skill levels in 4d6 HA.

 

IMO this leads to silliness.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Limitations on Combat Skill Levels - same as the attack itself?

 

I think the cost structure of ALL the various Skill Levels, Combat Skill Levels and Penalty Skill Levels begins with the Overall Level with 'hidden' limitations defining what what the 'lesser' level can then apply to.

(I know there has been debate against the higher 6e costs of CSL's, but I have no preference between editions on this matter).

 

The least controversial method to apply additional Limitations to any sort of Level is to just start with an Overall Level to begin with.

(The 'trick' to using this method is figuring out what the exact 'hidden' values are).

 

This is similar to past arguments I have repeatedly made against allowing 'additional' Limitations to be applied directly to Talents (who are just pre-packaged Limited Powers) because of the recursive nature of applying Limitation in 2 separate steps. The cleaner method is to just start with the base Power the Talent is built from and rebuild with any additional Limitations.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Limitations on Combat Skill Levels - same as the attack itself?

 

As a GM' date=' I would be very careful with limitations on CSLs. If you allow CSLs to take the same limitations as the powers they apply to, they become very cheap and potentially abusive. I mean, suppose you had a Fantasy Hero mage who took 5 point levels with "All Magic Attacks," then applied a -1/4 limitation "Doesn't work in anti-magic field," or even "Unifed Power: Magic." I can think of zero situations in which those limitations would restrict the CSLs any more than the mage would otherwise be restricted[/quote']

 

First off, the "anti-magic field" is very game-dependent. In most games of my experience, an anti-magic field suppresses magical abilities, so it is a power unto itself. Magic spells don't get a limitation for "affected by adjustment powers that affect magic", so they don't get a limitation for being suppressed by anti-magic fields.

 

As to Unified Power: Magic, let's say I have a dozen or so magical spells, including a couple of defensive spells, some attack spells, a couple of movement spells and an Invisibility spell. I also have 4 skill levels with all magical spells. If I slap Unified Power on those (perhaps because they are themselves a magical augmentation of my skills), and I'm skulking around invisible when some clever diviner casts his Reveal the Hidden Suppress Invisibility spell, I become visible and need to defend myself. But my skill levels have also been suppressed, since I bought them with Unified Power: Magic, like my Invisibility. Too bad - no skill levels. If I had not put that -1/4 limitation on those skill levels, they could continue to enhance my OCV with my spells, my DCV while I use them or the Damage Classes of my attack spells, which are likely also partially suppressed now.

 

' date=' and I doubt most GMs would allow it. Yet in spirit, it is no different than the Lightbeam example that has been thrown around.[/quote']

 

Maybe "most GM's" should consider whether the skill levels are, in fact, of less utility due to the limitation.

 

I think the cost structure of ALL the various Skill Levels' date=' Combat Skill Levels and Penalty Skill Levels begins with the Overall Level with 'hidden' limitations defining what what the 'lesser' level can then apply to.[/quote']

 

I agree with this approach and think it would be nice, perhaps in an APG, to see a Talent-type build for a Combat Skill Level and/or an ordinary skill level. What are they? Probably a Multipower of some form (+X OCV, +X DCV, maybe +X INT, PRE, DEX for skill rolls, perhaps +X mOCV and mDCV, and the tough one - +Y damage classes (Y = 1/2X). We also get Bouncing attacks and a few other ancillary benefits.

 

Drop from an overall level to an all combat level and we just remove the bonus stat slots. Drop Mental Combat and we just lose those stats. But dropping from "all combat" to "all HTH" to "just Kung Fu" to "Punch OCV only" is the less obviously priced adjustment.

 

I guess we know +1 OCV, only for one specific attack is either a -1 1/2 limitation (5/2.5 = 2) or a -2 limitation (5/3 = 1 2/3 rounds to 2). And we know that the overall multipower, under 6e rules, costs 12. So what's in between, how do we get there and what limitations are applied.

 

With this breakdown, we could, for example, build combat skill levels that don’t add to DC, or can’t enhance DCV or mDCV, or what have you, expanding the breadth of the toolkit.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Limitations on Combat Skill Levels - same as the attack itself?

 

I'd say that' date=' if the levels have OAF, then they are tied to that specific OAF piece of equipment. He's very good with his custom .44, but if he loses it and picks up another gun, not so good. However, purchased without the OAF, the levels would also apply when his own .44 is lost, and he is able to take one from a downed opponent.[/quote']

 

Works for me (not that that matters). As long as you are consistent with how they work, it's all of 1 point saved. Plus 6E1 uses the example "broadswords" so that means a 2 point CSL could cover "revolvers" or .44s or however limiting the GM wants to be.

[dmjalund]

Re: Limitations on Combat Skill Levels - same as the attack itself?

 

I am hesitant about treating skill levels like powers unless they are conceptually powers.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Limitations on Combat Skill Levels - same as the attack itself?

 

There should be a special effect of his abilities which justifies the limitations. But' date=' if the ability is useless in a darkness field, then the ability is limited, and the point savings appropriate to that limitation should be available.[/quote']

 

The bold type is the crux of my position. You make excellent points across the board, and admittedly many of my arguments are mollification for the player as much as anything, but if the player can't give me a good reason for the limitation other than "it saves me points" then it isn't going to fly with me.

 

You are right that sfx shouldn't dominate mechanics; they should be more for flavor than function, but they will impact function some of the time. I guess my position just tends more toward the sfx than yours.

[Christopher]

Re: Limitations on Combat Skill Levels - same as the attack itself?

 

I am hesitant about treating skill levels like powers unless they are conceptually powers.

So, you wouldn't treat characteristics like powers, unless they are conceptual powers either? I don't see the difference between a +30 STR in Characteristics-Points and +30 STR from a Power with no Limitations.

 

I agree with Hyperman in that CSL's are effective Limited +OCV. Or a +OCV, +DCV, +Damage Multipower, with flexible Slots. The fact that the best cost's 10 points, the allocation time(0-Phase) and intervall (once per Phase) pretty much says "Multipower with 10 Points Reserve".

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Limitations on Combat Skill Levels - same as the attack itself?

 

So, you wouldn't treat characteristics like powers, unless they are conceptual powers either? I don't see the difference between a +30 STR in Characteristics-Points and +30 STR from a Power with no Limitations.

 

I agree with Hyperman in that CSL's are effective Limited +OCV. Or a +OCV, +DCV, +Damage Multipower, with flexible Slots. The fact that the best cost's 10 points, the allocation time(0-Phase) and intervall (once per Phase) pretty much says "Multipower with 10 Points Reserve".

 

small correction

The best is the Overall Level (in 6e it costs 12 points) and the first reduction of it results in 10 point levels that apply either to just All Combat or to All Skills.

[Christopher]

Re: Limitations on Combat Skill Levels - same as the attack itself?

 

small correction

The best is the Overall Level (in 6e it costs 12 points) and the first reduction of it results in 10 levels that apply either to just All Combat or to All Skills.

Right. And they even affect all caracteristics rolls.

 

And from a certain point of view, Penalty Skill levels fall into that area too.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Limitations on Combat Skill Levels - same as the attack itself?

 

I am hesitant about treating skill levels like powers unless they are conceptually powers.

 

As I recall, the rules indicate skills and characteristics are listed as Powers because they need to be treated as Powers to have advantages and limitations apply. So, as soon as I add a limitation to the skill level, it becomes a power by definition.

 

In any case, why should it matter? If you need your Feather of Courage to fight better, or you're inconsistent so you only get your bonus OCV on a roll of 12 or less, or you have to try hard so your skill levels cost END, or your skill levels don't work under some circumstances, why should they not have a reduced cost to compensate for the fact they are less useful than other skill levels?

 

The bold type is the crux of my position. You make excellent points across the board' date=' and admittedly many of my arguments are mollification for the player as much as anything, but if the player can't give me a good reason for the limitation other than "it saves me points" then it isn't going to fly with me.[/quote']

 

That's simple character design. "Why doesn't the Photon Burst work in darkness" is a valid question. Having answered it, there is no reason to deny the same limitation to any other ability that is also useless in darkness.

 

Right. And they even affect all caracteristics rolls.

 

And from a certain point of view, Penalty Skill levels fall into that area too.

 

PSL's are just Skill Levels with the added "only to offset penalties" (perhaps from specific sources) limitation.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Limitations on Combat Skill Levels - same as the attack itself?

 

So' date=' you wouldn't treat characteristics like powers, unless they are conceptual powers either?[/b'] I don't see the difference between a +30 STR in Characteristics-Points and +30 STR from a Power with no Limitations.

 

I agree with Hyperman in that CSL's are effective Limited +OCV. Or a +OCV, +DCV, +Damage Multipower, with flexible Slots. The fact that the best cost's 10 points, the allocation time(0-Phase) and intervall (once per Phase) pretty much says "Multipower with 10 Points Reserve".

 

Nothing in his very short post even remotely suggests that, so your comment on Characteristics has absolutely nothing to do with the post you are responding to.

[dmjalund]

Re: Limitations on Combat Skill Levels - same as the attack itself?

 

I would treat limited attributes that aren't powers like Physical Complication extras, like when you sell back running.

 

However limiting a an actual skill level, (as opposed to skill levels that are intrinsic part of powers) just because the power itself can only be used sometimes, seems a little twee.