Megascale costs

[lifo]

What is the difference between a Teleportion 10m, megascaled 1m=10Km, and a Teleportation 1m, megascaled 1m=100Km, aside from the fact that the former will be more expensive?

And in case there's no difference, why shouldn't I prefer the cheaper solution?

 

PS: I know that megascaling questions are a annoying, but I hadn't any luck searching on the forum or on the 6ed FAQ.

[Steve Long]

Re: Megascale costs

 

This seems to be a discussion topic rather than a rules question, so I've moved it to the Discussion board.

 

My general response: The first power allows a character to Teleport 1-10m as a personal action, whereas the second would only allow a character to Teleport 1m as a personal action, which is largely pointless in most situations. The use of the power on a personal (as opposed to MegaScaled) level may provide some tactical benefits to buying more meters of Teleportation rather than simply buying the MegaScale to a higher level.

[Christopher]

Re: Megascale costs

 

The earth has a radius of roughly 6,400 Kilometers and a circumfence around 40.000 Kilometers. So you need about 13,000 Kilometers range before you can go to any place on earth in one jump.

 

Overall there is no reason to choose one version over the other. Megascale is there for "intersting, flavorfull but not game breaking abilites". If your GM thinks it fit's that and his campaign, you can use the cheaper version to do your flavor abilites.

[Ice9]

Re: Megascale costs

 

For pure long-distance travel, then sure, the second is better. The first does give you a bit more flexibility.

 

Also, I'm not sure how Change Environment interacts with Megascale, but it's possible that the second version would be completely stopped by CE: -1m with Teleportation. Admittedly, a somewhat niche situation.

[lifo]

Re: Megascale costs

 

This seems to be a discussion topic rather than a rules question' date=' so I've moved it to the Discussion board.[/quote']

Thank you.

 

My general response: The first power allows a character to Teleport 1-10m as a personal action' date=' whereas the second would only allow a character to Teleport 1m as a personal action, which is largely pointless in most situations. The use of the power on a personal (as opposed to MegaScaled) level may provide some tactical benefits to buying more meters of Teleportation rather than simply buying the MegaScale to a higher level.[/quote']

Ok. But, doesn't Megascale let me define 1m as any length between 1m and what I had bought as a maximum (in this case 100Km)?

So, wouldn't I be able to Teleport myself to 5, 7 or 10m just setting that 1m of movement I have to that distance?

 

For pure long-distance travel, then sure, the second is better. The first does give you a bit more flexibility.

 

Also, I'm not sure how Change Environment interacts with Megascale, but it's possible that the second version would be completely stopped by CE: -1m with Teleportation. Admittedly, a somewhat niche situation.

That's a good point. Buying a more costly version makes you less likely to be prey to Dispels, Drains and similar effects, thus giving you an advantage over the cheaper version.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Megascale costs

 

Ok. But, doesn't Megascale let me define 1m as any length between 1m and what I had bought as a maximum (in this case 100Km)?

So, wouldn't I be able to Teleport myself to 5, 7 or 10m just setting that 1m of movement I have to that distance?

 

Generally speaking - Megascale can only be used outside Personal Movement; meaning the shortest distance you can Megascale Move is 1km. Below that you'll need Personal Meters.

 

I would probably be inclined to let a "megascale meter" be defined as low as 100m. But never any lower.

 

Also - all Megascale Movement is automatically Non-Combat Movement, so tactically it can be a very bad decision to "Megascale Move 10m" anyway, you drop your DCV and OCV to Non-Combat Movement levels.

[Ice9]

Re: Megascale costs

 

Generally speaking - Megascale can only be used outside Personal Movement; meaning the shortest distance you can Megascale Move is 1km. Below that you'll need Personal Meters.

I think this changed in 6E, IIRC, you can now scale down Megascale as far as you want.

 

Also - all Megascale Movement is automatically Non-Combat Movement, so tactically it can be a very bad decision to "Megascale Move 10m" anyway, you drop your DCV and OCV to Non-Combat Movement levels.

But this is definitely true. With 10m Teleportation, you can 'port out of being surrounded and still keep your DCV. With 1m Megascale, you'll be at 0 DCV if you do that.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Megascale costs

 

The first level of MegaScale costs +1 and allows a power to function at either personal scale (1m = 1m) or Mega scale at the character’s choice.

 

So 10 meters with Megascale 1 km can be used as 10 meters combat movement, where 1 meter with Megascale 10 km can only move you 1 meter as combat movement. You can scale down Mega (you can even use 1m = 10 m in the example in the books), but anything over combat rates moves you into the MegaMovement rules - full phase and noncombat.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Megascale costs

 

I think this changed in 6E' date=' IIRC, you can now scale down Megascale as far as you want.[/quote']

 

Yeah, that is RAW. I suppose by that rules you could crank MegaScale down to 1m=2m - personally, the Non-Combat Movement issue aside, I don't think I'd allow that.

 

I would, given some consideration on it, take look at Movement in the campaign, the likely general size of the average "Combat Map" and call that the Minimum MegaScale Level. Be it 100m, 25m or 15m. . . To move shorter distances you will have to switch to Tactical (Combat) Movement.

 

Because I believe MegaScale Movement should be used as that - Large Scale Movement: MegaDistance (vs MegaArea or MegaRange).

[dmjalund]

Re: Megascale costs

 

remember that even at the 1m=2m scale, it is still non-combat movement

[lifo]

Re: Megascale costs

 

remember that even at the 1m=2m scale' date=' it is still non-combat movement[/quote']

Ok, so that kind of trick would be less flexible and more easily "adjusted" than his expensive counterpart.

Problem is that the difference in cost is too big to justify only this. And, in many cases, the same concept of the power you're building doesn't need the above strategic "advantages".

Let's say I'm building a power just to teleport around a planet. Who cares if I can only use it Non-combat? That is how it was meant to be. And I could easily overcome some of the "easily adjustable" problem adding a couple of Difficult to Dispel.

 

I know that as a GM I can set any limit to any rules as I see fit for my campaign, but the question still stands: why should I generally buy a movement power and megascale it, when it's way cheaper buying two of them one personal, and one at 1m megascaled?

[Christopher]

Re: Megascale costs

 

I know that as a GM I can set any limit to any rules as I see fit for my campaign' date=' but the question still stands: why should I generally buy a movement power and megascale it, when it's way cheaper buying two of them one personal, and one at 1m megascaled?[/quote']

Can't you also have Strategic Teleport as a Naked Advantage? Would still be succeptible for drains of the tactical Teleport however.

[Arc Esu]

Re: Megascale costs

 

At least in 5e, there was a suggested rule about "minimum Active Point costs" for powers. The player had to buy a minimum number of active points in a power before any advantages were applied. This prevented characters from buying 1" of teleport just to escape from entangles for the low cost of 2 character points, or from buying 1" of Flight just so they could hover. I recall that the suggested minimum was 10 Active points. I don't recall if this rule made it into 6e. Even if it did, it is campaign/GM specific. Nevertheless, the existence of this rule does explain why one might buy Teleport 10m of megascaled 1m=10Km rather than Teleport 1m megascaled 1m=100Km; you simply wouldn't be allowed to buy the second power.

[Christopher]

Re: Megascale costs

 

This prevented characters from buying 1" of teleport just to escape from entangles for the low cost of 2 character points' date=' or from buying 1" of Flight just so they could hover.[/quote']

Afaik not in 6E. Perhaps it was even dropped for Megascale?

I would simply put those chases under "The GM says no" Rule. If the character has no real teleportation, then this would simply be a "potentially unbalancing" power build.

 

Also note that 1m flight does not counters falling/KB velocity very good. It only prevents you from aquiring more and allows really slow hovering.

[Dr Divago]

Re: Megascale costs

 

hi all

i'm not really familiar with 6e,i know only what my mate (hi Lifo!) told me

btw, in 5e i always thought you can't scale to "any value", just some "quantum" (sorry, i got no better term)

 

i mean:

assuming a 1m teleport, megascaled to 1m=10km

you can teleport to 1m (personal), you can teleport to 10 km. you can teleport to 1 km or to 100 m but not to 123,5 m or 3 m

as a GM i'd impose a minimum of 1km for any "jump" but i'ts just a rule of thumb; i could also set it to 100m minimum or 10m minimum, not less than it. But i would have serious problem permitting to set the scale at not even number

to be honest, i would have serious problem permitting to scale to personal range too. (yes i know in the 6ed you can by default, but in 5ed by default you can't)

 

there's another reason why megascale teleport is not so big catch:

if you buy a 1 m = 100 km teleport, then you blind teleport to somewhere and miss the roll: you could ends up 200 or 300 km away from the target destination; this could be very dangerous if the bad master will let you in orbit because you missed the roll

if you buy a 100m teleport megascaled to 1m=1km and you miss the blind teleport roll you are only few km away from target destination, so really not a big problem

 

btw problem still persist: you can also apply it to 1m=10 km megascaled running or flying, and still got better results than a "plain" running/flying

 

i think as a master i'd not allow to megascale under some minimum scale; or i'd permit only if there is some really good reason AND some other limitations (like turn mode, linking to long range perception, etc)

 

my 2 cents

[ghost-angel]

Re: Megascale costs

 

I know that as a GM I can set any limit to any rules as I see fit for my campaign' date=' but the question still stands: why should I generally buy a movement power and megascale it, when it's way cheaper buying two of them one personal, and one at 1m megascaled?[/quote']

 

The rules are flexible to any given game can do whatever they want. It's not up to the book to adjudicate your game, just provide the options for it.

 

Ultimately, the GM will be the one to answer that question for Their Game, and Their Game alone. A different GM may have a different answer.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Megascale costs

 

Enforcing a minimum purchase also requires enforcing the teleport be useful in tactical combat.

 

I question how much value that "megascale only" T Port actually has. What will the in-game benefit be? If the players lacked access to megascale transport, would they be unable to get where the adventure takes place (or arrive long after the action has ended), or would the location and/or timing of adventure scenes change? Megascale is often merely a facilitator for the game to have a wider scope, rather than providing any real advantage to the player or character.

[Tom Carman]

Re: Megascale costs

 

Don't forget some adders or advantages on Teleport that don't get too much play at tactical ranges, but can have lethal consequences at planetary ranges: Position Shift, Velocity Cancellation and Safe Blind. A velocity-conserving 'port from one side of the planet to the other would leave you moving at about 1000 mph relative to the ground (and upside-down).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Megascale costs

 

Don't forget some adders or advantages on Teleport that don't get too much play at tactical ranges' date=' but can have lethal consequences at planetary ranges: Position Shift, Velocity Cancellation and Safe Blind. A velocity-conserving 'port from one side of the planet to the other would leave you moving at about 1000 mph relative to the ground (and upside-down).[/quote']

 

Requiring such adders/advantages is overkill in my opinion. I wouldn't allow a character to use a similar ability with UAA to have the target arrive upside down and moving at 1000 mph. Similarly, I would not have a character who paid for Flight at a supersonic level leave sonic booms in his wake, get killed crashing into birds or such similar realistic results, nor do I check to see whether FireLad burned his fingers when he Blasted Pulsar with his SuperNova Blast.

 

The ability to Teleport to the other side of the world, like most superpowers, is hardly realistic to begin with, so trying to superimpose realism on it doesn't fit, to me.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Megascale costs

 

Also, the be-all-end-all of HERO System isn't necessarily point efficiency. You may find that it seems to suit a character concept better, or just "feels" more appropriate, to build an ability one way when there might be a cheaper way to get nearly the same effect.

[Tom Carman]

Re: Megascale costs

 

Requiring such adders/advantages is overkill in my opinion. I wouldn't allow a character to use a similar ability with UAA to have the target arrive upside down and moving at 1000 mph. Similarly' date=' I would not have a character who paid for Flight at a supersonic level leave sonic booms in his wake, get killed crashing into birds or such similar realistic results, nor do I check to see whether FireLad burned his fingers when he Blasted Pulsar with his SuperNova Blast.[/quote']

 

Doing that with UAA I think comes under the heading of "trying to buy a mega-Blast or KA by special effect", ie. cheating. However, my GM docked us for not having those when we made a long-range 'port: we materialized and promptly blew sideways through a few walls. Forcefields protected us from damage, but the stun promptly put us on GM's option stun table. The non-persistent shields dropped, but the KO triggered our base's emergency extraction TP (which did have the required advantages/adders).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Megascale costs

 

Don't forget some adders or advantages on Teleport that don't get too much play at tactical ranges' date=' but can have lethal consequences at planetary ranges: Position Shift, Velocity Cancellation and Safe Blind. A velocity-conserving 'port from one side of the planet to the other would leave you moving at about 1000 mph relative to the ground (and upside-down).[/quote']

 

I think that falls under the same basic prohibition to teleporting an unwilling target into an object via UAA.

[Christopher]

Re: Megascale costs

 

I think that falls under the same basic prohibition to teleporting an unwilling target into an object via UAA.

Even better, Megascale itself prohibits something like this:

"It’s intended to allow characters to create interesting, useful, and flavorful abilities (often non-combat ones), not to make it easy to build planet-destroying weapons for just a few points or to allow a character to travel anywhere he wants instantly." (of course, unless the GM want's them to).

 

Overall the GM doing something like this, especially without warning, is a rather weak action from his side. You don't normally have to check if you hit a fly while running at mach 5 and can breath normally while doing so (despite the fact that no human would be able to). So you should be able to port to the other side of the planet, without needing that adder. Teleporting into a moving vehicle or out of it, that is another story however.

[Martin2]

Re: Megascale costs

 

I think it comes down to flavour of the game or if you want to have a "reasonable"cost for your powers. You could minimise all the costs but would a few point power seem good?

 

My Teleport player (the bain of my life ) has multiple teleports in a MP. He has the long distance teleport. The teleport heavier weights shorter distances. The teleport safely through anti teleport walls at short distance. The combat teleport into moving vehicles. All limited to 60 CP's and I only alowed a minimum of teleport 5 for the long distances for cost. I thought 1m teleport was too cheesy for costing and wanted to put some limits on it.

[lifo]

Re: Megascale costs

 

Ok, so, infering from your answers, the only way to get Megascaled Movement Powers straight, and not abused, is applying own campaign rules and/or the GM discretion.

Well, that's good to me!

Even the best systems have weak points. The importance is knowing where they are.

 

Thus, which kind of campaign limitation would you suggest? I was thinking about not permitting the Megascale advantage if there isn't at least 5 point of base power + adders.