Advantages on Strength, with limitations, Advantages and Martial Arts

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Advantages on Strength, with limitations, Advantages and Martial Arts

 

I meant how CSL's/Maneuver would interact with the weapon when the "No Doubling Rule" is in effect:

The optional no doubling and the one that is part of Real Weapon apply to every source of DC equally - just a cap of what you can do no matter how much Skill.

Our writeups limit how much you can add with STR, but do not affect maneuvers or CSL's used to add DC. So it can still do a lot more with the right Martial Arts (wich is also Limited STR).

 

CSL's and maneuvers can add to DC's from any attack equally. They do not work differently depending on the nature of the underlying attack. HKA is augmented by STR. No other attack power is augmented by STR, whether by default or buy applying an advantage. That, to me, is the difference. By making the augmentation of the HKA by STR a function of the weapon, we pay for what we get. HKA does not automatically achieve a benefit available to no other power or game construct.

 

All your exampels go against different Defenses than HTH-Attack/HKA:

Power defense or ower on the AVAD table or even outside of the table (Entangle).

 

So what? Killing attacks apply BOD against resistant defenses, so they too go against a different defense. They're also on the AVAD table.

 

Than what about HKA being STR' date=' only for Damage with the advantage of converting every DC into Killing Damage? I mean, it is more expensive than HTH-Attack since it recieves no Mandatory No Range Limitation.[/quote']

 

If we just trash HKA entirely, we eliminate the No Range conundrum. Claws become "Killing Attack, no Range (-1/2)". Just like an eye poke can be constructed as Flash, No Range. We don't have HTH Flash Attack which costs 5 points per d6, has no range and is augmented by STR. Why do we need Killing Attacks to have two such variations?

 

Because it is not the case that "both pay 30 points for a 2d6 HKA."

 

Both addes a 30 point ability to their character. One bought the ability to inflict a 2 1/2d6 HKA and the other bought the ability to inflict an 8dk HKA. Why should they pay the same points and get widely different results? If they bought an RKA, a Drain or a Mental Attack for the same price, they would get the same damage capacity.

 

Why doesn't the first character buy 2 1/2d6 RKA, No Range, Cannot Spread and pay less than 30 points?

 

One has paid 30 points for a Killing Attack and the other has paid 120 points for STR plus a Killing Attack.

 

Actually he must have paid 110, since the first also has 10 STR. And the second received the STR he paid for. In fact, why shouldn't he Multiple Power Attack and Punch for 18d6 normal damage along with his 8d6 HKA? He paid for the STR. Would anyone give him a limitation on his STR if it does not enhance killing attacks? If that is part of the cost of STR, it should be possible to sell that aspect back, shouldn't it? Poor Grond is getting ripped off paying for the ability to enhance an HKA he doesn't have, isn't he?

 

Because your STR does not ordinarily do Flash or Drain damage. STR DOES ordinarily inflict damage to STUN and BOD.

 

My STR does not ordinarily do killing damage either. Grond cannot decide to Rend his opponent and do 6d6 KA damage instead of 18d6 Normal damage, nor can I decide I'd like to use my 12d6 Energy Blast to augment my 4d6 RKA. And, as noted above, I can still use my 18d6 Normal Attack as part of a multiple power attack - I still have that STR. But, for some reason, HKA alows me to add extra killing damage I don't otherwise have access to. It's an inconsistent mechanic.

 

Would it help to think of Killing as essentially a +0 Advantage on an attack?

 

Not really - it would be a +0 advantage only on normal damage attacks, since there's no conversion for any other type of attack. It is possible to convert killing weapons (not damage) using a "strike with the flat of the blade" maneuver, but it carries a CV penalty, as I recall, so it's not simply a +0 advantage. If you want to switch back and forth, you would typically use a Mutipower, not apply a +0 advantage.

 

It's a mechanic that fits poorly in the system which, in my opinion, we accept because the alternative is a mechanic that offends our sense of logic ("but a stronger character should do more damage"). But we accept that immunity to high heat provides no protection from a flamethrower. Why can't we accept that normal STR does not, for free, enhance killing damage?

 

edit:

 

If you're going to object to STR and Killing Attacks adding together, do you object to Resistant Protection and Physical Defense or Energy Defense adding together? It's basically the same thing; a Power and a Characteristic that add together in play. The difference is, one combo adds together to inflict STUN and BOD damage, and the other combo adds together to resist STUN damage.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wonders if I've now sparked a movement against allowing defenses to stack. Sometimes, like the hero who disemboweled the Emperor of Dragons, I find I've opened a Khan of Wyrms.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Advantages on Strength, with limitations, Advantages and Martial Arts

 

Hugh, are you arguing HOW the current rules should be interpreted or WHAT the current rules should have been changed to?

 

If its the former I don't even know how to begin a response.

If it's the latter (and it sure seems so) it's a little late. 6e is already done and I think it will be a while before we see a 7e (if ever).

 

If there is a WHY in there too you know as well as I that Mr. Long rarely if ever reveals such information.

[Lucius]

Re: Advantages on Strength, with limitations, Advantages and Martial Arts

 

Mr. Neilson, it seems to me that what you're really doing is making a great argument that Killing Attacks should have been dropped entirely and we could simulate blades and bullets and so forth with existing Advantages such as Attack Vs Alternate Defense, possibly with a new Modifier or two such as a Limitation to reduce STUN or an Advantage to multiply BODy.

 

 

In any case, at risk of repeating myself, I'll point out that your argument applies just as well to stacking Defense Characteristics with Resistant Protection.

 

My str does not ordinarily do killing damage either.

 

And my PD does not ordinarily provide Resistant Defense. Are you saying I shouldn't be able to stack it with a Resistant Protection Power to defend against STUN?

 

If you're going to object to str and killing attacks adding together, do you object to resistant protection and physical defense or energy defense adding together? It's basically the same thing; a power and a characteristic that add together in play. The difference is, one combo adds together to inflict stun and bod damage, and the other combo adds together to resist stun damage.

 

Lucius alexander

 

the palindromedary wonders if i've now sparked a movement against allowing defenses to stack. Sometimes, like the hero who disemboweled the emperor of dragons, i find i've opened a khan of wyrms.

[Christopher]

Re: Advantages on Strength, with limitations, Advantages and Martial Arts

 

About "HKA is Limited STR + transform Damage to Killing Damage, the same way HTH-Attack is just a limited form of STR":

I would even go one step further and say each of the following is just a modified version of STR with different advantages and limitations:

HTH-Attack

Blast

HKA

RKA

Telekinesis

 

- All version of STR with Range (Blast, RKA, TK) is common, that it has the "does not Adds to existing STR" Limitation. Each of them must be bought seperate from your normal STR. The advantage of Range and limitaion of being seperate seem to counterbalance (so each one costs 5 Active points, with the exception of TK).

- with exception of TK, each version is limited to "only for Damage" (wich is imho the real reason TK is so expensive as compared to blast or RKA)

- RKA and HKA have the additional advantage of transforming the damage into Killing Damage. This may only be counterbalanced by the fact that they count as one type of power towards adjustment powers, instead of two (like Blast and HTH-Attack do*).

- HTH-Attack has the additional, madatory limitation of -1/4 but I am not certain why. Perhaps Steve Long thinks that Normal Damage with HTH-Range should get something in addition and only have are real value of 4? Or it is that normal Damage in HTH is less worth than Killing Damage in HTH but Blast and RKA are regared equall?

 

 

*I know this also counts against Aid, but you usually only pack a aid when you know you can use it while a Drain could just Drain the wrong power.

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: Advantages on Strength, with limitations, Advantages and Martial Arts

 

It's because 5 active points of strength gives you both 1 DC of damage as well as lifting and grabbing. If the HtH attack weren't limited at all then it would be a very poor deal compared to just buying more STR, but if HtH attack cost less base points then it's active points would be off. I haven't been able think of any way to fix this that isn't more trouble than it's worth.

 

Changing STR's cost to 2:1 would let you drop the lim on HtH attacks, but the changes to Telekinesis that would require would make TK prohibitively expensive. It would also screw up the active point cost of STR, Only for Lifting and such. You could try making STR cost 3:2, but that would still be overvaluing the active point cost of non (directly) damaging STR, and would still make TK too expensive. Admittedly, TK has a few more gimme's than I think it should YMMV (in what way is TK's indirectness different from the real thing?), but even without those, raising the cost of STR would require a major redesign for TK to be priced fairly and not appear off compared to the rest of the rules.

 

Speaking as someone who's tried, unless you're being paid to waste years of your life figuring out how to remove the minor inconsistencies between these powers, you may as well just let it be. Sudden epiphanies not withstanding.

 

C'est la vie,

Bodkins Odds

[Christopher]

Re: Advantages on Strength, with limitations, Advantages and Martial Arts

 

It is possible to convert killing weapons (not damage) using a "strike with the flat of the blade" maneuver' date=' but it carries a CV penalty, as I recall, so it's not simply a +0 advantage. If you want to switch back and forth, you would typically use a Mutipower, not apply a +0 advantage.[/quote']

You recall is wrong. Club Weapon is equal to Strike in any way, but it is a optional Maneuver in 6E so it may not be useable.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Advantages on Strength, with limitations, Advantages and Martial Arts

 

Mr. Neilson' date=' it seems to me that what you're really doing is making a great argument that Killing Attacks should have been dropped entirely and we could simulate blades and bullets and so forth with existing Advantages such as Attack Vs Alternate Defense, possibly with a new Modifier or two such as a Limitation to reduce STUN or an Advantage to multiply BODy.[/quote']

 

That would have been an alternative approach. To me, it would have made more sense to consolidate KA into one power, with range by default, and eliminate the orphan mechanic of STR enhancing KA's. Considering 6e moved so many more abilities to "you get what you pay for - if you want something that logically should come with it, buy the ability you think should logically come with it", leaving this one seems inconsistent.

 

In any case' date=' at risk of repeating myself, I'll point out that your argument applies just as well to stacking Defense Characteristics with Resistant Protection.[/quote']

 

6e at least got rid of Force Field as a separate power. IMO, Resistant Protection could have been eliminated as well, since it's just PD/ED with an advantage purchased as a power. There's really no compelling reason the system could not have removed the Resistant advantage and required purchase of Resistant Defense as 2 points of rDEF for 1 character point, with such defense only applying against the BOD of killing attacks.

 

And my PD does not ordinarily provide Resistant Defense. Are you saying I shouldn't be able to stack it with a Resistant Protection Power to defend against STUN?

 

You can put an advantage on PD to mnake it Resistant. Why can't you either put an advantage on Blast, Drain, etc. to have it enhenced by STR or, alternatively, put an advantage on STR to have it enhance other attacks (or a limitation that it does not enhance killing attacks)? For that matter, why can't we apply an advantage that allows an attack to be augmented by a characteristic other than STR? Why not Mental Attacks augmented by Ego, or spells or psionics augmented by INT?

 

If "Augmented by STR" is accepted as a +1/2 advantage, put it in as a standard advantage for attack powers.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Advantages on Strength, with limitations, Advantages and Martial Arts

 

You recall is wrong. Club Weapon is equal to Strike in any way' date=' but it is a optional Maneuver in 6E so it may not be useable.[/quote']

 

So why not a similar optional maneuver to convert normal damage to killing damage?

[dmjalund]

Re: Advantages on Strength, with limitations, Advantages and Martial Arts

 

one of the problems I have with the "buy everything" phiosophy. Is you end up 'buying' something the everyday man on the street could do with a bit of ingenuity.

 

the end result is that points end up replacing ingenuity.

[Lucius]

Re: Advantages on Strength, with limitations, Advantages and Martial Arts

 

That would have been an alternative approach. To me, it would have made more sense to consolidate KA into one power, with range by default, and eliminate the orphan mechanic of STR enhancing KA's.

 

And yet you don't seem to have a problem with STR adding to Hand to Hand Attack. Curious.

 

You can put an advantage on PD to make it Resistant. Why can't you either put an advantage on Blast, Drain, etc. to have it enhenced by STR or, alternatively, put an advantage on STR to have it enhance other attacks (or a limitation that it does not enhance killing attacks)?

 

You can put a Limitation on STR to not enhance Killing Attacks, assuming the character will be using Killing Attacks often enough for it to be a Limitation, as far as I know. Justifying it in terms of SFX might be tricky.

 

For that matter, why can't we apply an advantage that allows an attack to be augmented by a characteristic other than STR? Why not Mental Attacks augmented by Ego, or spells or psionics augmented by INT?

 

For the very simple reason that, if I do not buy any Mental Powers, I cannot use my raw EGO score, however high, to read your mind or cause you to hallucinate or do anything of that nature. Nor can I use my INT in that fashion. I CAN however use my STR to inflict STUN and BOD damage, which is what a Killing Attack does. It stacks for the same reason PD and ED stack with Resistant Protection, because it is fundamentally the same kind of thing. As you pointed out yourself in the case of Resistant Protection, it's just PD and/or ED with an Advantage.

 

You'd have a better case if you asked why Telekinesis can't add to Blast or to Ranged Killing Attacks, since Telekinesis is the ranged version of STR and those Powers are the ranged versions of Hand to Hand Attack and Hand to Hand Killing Attack. I have to admit, I'm not sure I'd have an answer then.

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Ranged Palindromedary

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Advantages on Strength, with limitations, Advantages and Martial Arts

 

And yet you don't seem to have a problem with STR adding to Hand to Hand Attack. Curious.

 

I consider HTH Attack best realized as “STR, only for HTH damage”, so I don’t see a concern with it adding to HTH damage from STR any more than I would see a concern with “STR Only to Lift” adding to the lift one gets from unlimited STR. HTH Attack provides a subset of the abilities provided by STR, and nothing more.

 

You can put a Limitation on STR to not enhance Killing Attacks' date=' assuming the character will be using Killing Attacks often enough for it to be a Limitation, as far as I know. Justifying it in terms of SFX might be tricky.[/quote']

 

If STR is worth 5 points per 5 STR when routinely used to enhance killing attacks, how can it also be worth 5 points per 5 STR when you don’t use it to enhance killing attacks? In a Heroic game, such KA’s are available as gear and the character is limiting his potential to use such gear. In a Supers game, the character with an HKA gets an addition from his STR not available to other characters.

 

If we have two characters, one with 15 STR and one with 75 STR, and each buys a 6d6 Blast, each can do a 6d6 Blast. One can punch for 3d6 and the other for 15d6, but their Blast is unchanged. But if each buys a 2d6 HKA, the first can strike with a 3d6 HKA (plus a 3d6 MPA Punch, if desired) and the second for a 7d6 HKA (and a 15d6 MPA Punch, if desired). The 75 STR character paid for the ability to increase normal HTH damage. But he gets extra killing damage for free, provided he makes that initial investment.

 

This was perceived as an issue between 1st Ed and 2nd Ed, causing the doubling rule to be implemented. RESULT: the standard for 1e of buying a 1d6 KA for most/all high STR characters changed to a standard of buying equal HKA dice from STR and KA. After all, why pay for a 15 STR and a 3d6 HKA when you can pay exactly the same points for a 30 STR and a 2d6 HKA, get the same 4d6 HKA and get all the benefits of +15 STR in addition, at no extra cost.

 

For the very simple reason that' date=' if I do not buy any Mental Powers, I cannot use my raw EGO score, however high, to read your mind or cause you to hallucinate or do anything of that nature. Nor can I use my INT in that fashion. I [u']CAN[/u] however use my STR to inflict STUN and BOD damage, which is what a Killing Attack does.

 

I cannot use my STR to inflict killing damage. THAT is what a killing attack does.

 

It stacks for the same reason PD and ED stack with Resistant Protection' date=' because it is fundamentally the same kind of thing. As you pointed out yourself in the case of Resistant Protection, it's just PD and/or ED with an Advantage.[/quote']

 

“Resistant” is just an advantage for defences. Just like “HTH Attack” is just STR with a limitation. So resistant and non-resistant defences stack, and HTH attack stacks with unlimited STR. But a Killing Attack is a different attack form, just like Drain, or Entangle, or Mental Attack are different attack forms.

 

You'd have a better case if you asked why Telekinesis can't add to Blast or to Ranged Killing Attacks' date=' since Telekinesis is the ranged version of STR and those Powers are the ranged versions of Hand to Hand Attack and Hand to Hand Killing Attack. I have to admit, I'm not sure I'd have an answer then.[/quote']

 

Just as reasonable a question. If we can use STR to augment an attack other than the HTH attack STR already delivers, why can’t a Blast augment an RKA, or TK do so, or any two attacks be used to augment one another? They can’t, by the rules – unless it is a HKA augmented by STR. Hence my statement this is an orphan mechanic.

 

Maybe we should divest of Killing Attacks entirely and simply add a “Lethal Strike” combat maneuver which converts normal damage to killing damage. Given Club Weapon swaps the other way with no bonus or penalty, it seems just as reasonable to allow high STR characters to try to break bones or rend their opponents limb from limb, rather than require purchase of a separate attack. If we want to suggest this is more difficult (and offset a perceived advantage for doing killing damage), put some penalties on the maneuver.

 

That would make a killing attack something STR can inflict, so both HKA and HTH Attack could then be re-priced as STR – only to enhance normal damage or only to enhance Lethal Strike damage. And you can buy Blast dice that only enhance either non-lethal or lethal strikes as well.

 

Or we leave Killing Attacks as a separate attack type, and you buy them separately. Just like we buy RKA, TK and Blast separately, we would buy STR and HKA separately. Your high STR augments your KA? Then buy extra KA dice. Slap "lockout for STR" and "unified power with STR" on them, if you are so inclined. That's how you buy Mental Damage augmented by your high Ego, right?

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Advantages on Strength, with limitations, Advantages and Martial Arts

 

So why not a similar optional maneuver to convert normal damage to killing damage?

 

I suggested that at one point. In fact, I suggested that all damage be normal damage, and that there might be a special "Kill" maneuver that converts any attack into killing damage.

 

Of course, I suggested a lot of things in those days...

[Christopher]

Re: Advantages on Strength, with limitations, Advantages and Martial Arts

 

So why not a similar optional maneuver to convert normal damage to killing damage?

I think it is usually easier to cause normal damage with a Killing Weapon (Club Maneuver, if possible at all with that weapon and allowed by the GM) than to cause lethal damage (you have to add at least 1 DC and the GM can activate the "only DC Doubling" Rule, if he thinks the campaign would be better with it).

 

Also killing attack have more utiltiy that just hitting an Opponent. Unless I am seriously mistaken (and I better aks Steve L. about it) it is also a good tactic against Foci (unless they provide resistant Defenses), walls and entangles.

 

About the seperation of Resistant Protection and PD/ED, Resistant:

I think they symbolize something different. RP is there for Force Fields, Armor and similar "External" Defenses. EP/PD, Resistant seems to stand for the body's ability to withstand attacks - including build in armor. I do not know if this is a vestigal seperation, or something important.

 

Edit: Just noticed the Well hidden "Resistant PD/ED" in the description of Entangle and barrier)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Advantages on Strength, with limitations, Advantages and Martial Arts

 

I think it is usually easier to cause normal damage with a Killing Weapon (Club Maneuver' date=' if possible at all with that weapon and allowed by the GM) than to cause lethal damage (you have to add at least 1 DC and the GM can activate the "only DC Doubling" Rule, if he thinks the campaign would be better with it).[/quote']

 

Why? Because the rules provide Club Weapon and not Rend Opponent as a maneuver? That's easily changed.

 

Also killing attack have more utiltiy that just hitting an Opponent. Unless I am seriously mistaken (and I better aks Steve L. about it) it is also a good tactic against Foci (unless they provide resistant Defenses)' date=' walls and entangles.[/quote']

 

You are seriously mistaken. Objects have rDEF. If KA's have more utility, why should it be possible to easily use a Killing Attack to inflict normal damage? If they are of equal value (but different benefits), it should be equally easy, or equally difficult , to use either for the alternative mechanic.

 

They are, IMO, different mechanics. That means they should be purchased separately. Club Weapon? Sure - I can accept that some weapons are a built-in Multipower. In heroic games, point cost of gear makes little difference anyway. But, if you're paying points, you don't get to "club weapon" without paying for the ability to use a normal attack.

 

About the seperation of Resistant Protection and PD/ED, Resistant:

I think they symbolize something different. RP is there for Force Fields, Armor and similar "External" Defenses. EP/PD, Resistant seems to stand for the body's ability to withstand attacks - including build in armor. I do not know if this is a vestigal seperation, or something important.

 

Edit: Just noticed the Well hidden "Resistant PD/ED" in the description of Entangle and barrier)

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: Advantages on Strength, with limitations, Advantages and Martial Arts

 

Okay, I thought I read some guidelines for creating new standard maneuvers in HSMA. So I checked, and after giving the usual disclaimers, it said that Standard Maneuvers should be weaker than their Martial counter parts. Furthermore,

 

As a good rule of thumb, a Standard Maneuver should cost about 0-1 points when built using the Martial Maneuver construction rules.

 

So, after going through the the Martial Maneuver construction rules, (HSMA, pp.92-101) it seems that a strike maneuver needs to add at least a DC of killing damage before it can convert your strike to killing damage. That adds three points to the maneuver cost, so I need to add some restrictive elements to it.

 

If we take -2 DCV that leaves the maneuver cost at 1 point, but I want to pay for that extra DC completely so I'm going to put Unbalancing on it as well.* That leaves the maneuver cost at 0 points, and is now appropriate as a standard maneuver if GM wants people to be able to make killing strikes.

 

Fatal Blow: This maneuver allows a character do to killing damage but at the same time leaving himself open to attack. An example would be a character who threw all of his weight into a punch increasing it's chances of seriously hurting his opponent, but leaving him unbalanced.

 

Honestly though, I think adding a DC is overkill. I would just let you convert your STR damage into Killing Damage with no restriction greater than unbalancing. While it would guarantee BODY damage against an unarmored foe, it doesn't increase the maximum BODY damage by that much at all except by attacking vs Resistant Defense, and the lowered STUN pretty much makes up for it.

 

Virtually,

Bodkins Odds

 

*I was thinking that Take Half DMG restriction might also be appropriate depending on the SFX, but I still haven't quite figured out how it's supposed to work.

[Lucius]

Re: Advantages on Strength, with limitations, Advantages and Martial Arts

 

I cannot use my STR to inflict killing damage. THAT is what a killing attack does.

 

When the dice are rolled and Defenses applied, the target marks off damage to STUN and/or to BOD.

 

THAT is what a Killing Attack does.

 

But a Killing Attack is a different attack form, just like Drain, or Entangle, or Mental Attack are different attack forms.

 

No, a Killing Attack is not so very different from a Normal Attack. They are fundamentally like one another, and fundamentally different from exotic attacks like Drain or Entangle. Mental Attack is also pretty similar to the "basic" attacks; you could build it, or something close to it, from Blast with the right Modifiers.

 

Hence my statement this is an orphan mechanic.

 

One could make a case that Killing Attack is an orphan mechanic. It does the same thing Normal Attacks do, but does it abNormally.

 

 

All that said, I won't say the status quo is perfect. But it is better than it used to be.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Orphan palindromedary

[Christopher]

Re: Advantages on Strength, with limitations, Advantages and Martial Arts

 

Club Weapon? Sure - I can accept that some weapons are a built-in Multipower.

Club Weapon and Multipower with HTH-Attack are totally different.

You can Martial Strike, Haymaker and afaik Move by a HTH-Attack, but not a "Clubbed" Killing Attack (sine Club Weapons is a Meneuver already).

The same way you can't let a HTH-Attack make Killing Damage and Combine it with anoethr Maneuer (you could rebuild each maneuver with Martial Arts and +1 DC Killing, but +1 DC Killing is 3 points).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Advantages on Strength, with limitations, Advantages and Martial Arts

 

Honestly though' date=' I think adding a DC is overkill. I would just let you convert your STR damage into Killing Damage with no restriction greater than unbalancing. While it would guarantee BODY damage against an unarmored foe, it doesn't increase the maximum BODY damage [strike']by that much[/strike] at all except by attacking vs Resistant Defense, and the lowered STUN pretty much makes up for it.

 

While switching to killing damage does not enhance the maximum, it does enhance the average. A 12d6 Normal Attack has maximum 24 BOD (with very low odds of rolling all 6's - 1 in 2,176,782,336), as does a 4d6 Killing Attack (better odds - 1 in 1,296), but the normal attack averages 12 BOD where the KA averages 14. The KA averages lower STUN, of course. However, if I can freely choose between them, I can select Killing Damage when I need to break an entangle, smash through a barrier or take down an Automaton, none of whom have STUN anyway. To me, the ability to choose between the two does have value, so it should not be free. If there were no value, than just have a single attack type and allow the character to freely choose between normal and killing damage.

 

When the dice are rolled and Defenses applied, the target marks off damage to STUN and/or to BOD.

 

THAT is what a Killing Attack does.

 

That's what an AVAD Does Bod does, or a Drain vs Stun and BOD, or a Mental Blast, Does BOD. They operate differently mechanically, as do killing attacks.

 

No' date=' a Killing Attack is not so very different from a Normal Attack. They are fundamentally like one another, and fundamentally different from exotic attacks like Drain or Entangle. Mental Attack is also pretty similar to the "basic" attacks; you could build it, or something close to it, from Blast with the right Modifiers.[/quote']

 

If that's the test, Mental Attack is closer. It can be simulated with IPE, AVACV, Line of Sight Range and AVAD (ignoring "Based on ECV"). There is no advantage to convert a normal attack into a killing attack, enhancing average BOD and converting to a Stun Multiple, nor one to make BOD, but not STUN, resisted by a different defense, not to mention avoiding the need to buy the Does BOD advantage.

 

One could make a case that Killing Attack is an orphan mechanic. It does the same thing Normal Attacks do' date=' but does it abNormally.[/quote']

 

Hence, different mechanic.

 

All that said' date=' I won't say the status quo is perfect. But it is better than it used to be. [/quote']

 

I think 6e made the very positive step of making Killing attacks effective to kill, not to KO, better fitting their purpose to their niche.

 

Club Weapon and Multipower with HTH-Attack are totally different.

You can Martial Strike, Haymaker and afaik Move by a HTH-Attack, but not a "Clubbed" Killing Attack (sine Club Weapons is a Meneuver already).

The same way you can't let a HTH-Attack make Killing Damage and Combine it with anoethr Maneuer (you could rebuild each maneuver with Martial Arts and +1 DC Killing, but +1 DC Killing is 3 points).

 

I don't see that as a huge change It was once theoretically impossible to Grab while moving, yet we wanted to be able to do so, so the Grab and Move By maneuver were combined into the Grab By. It wouldn't be a major stretch to allow a Move By with the flat of a blade, or a Haymaker, or any number of other reasonable combinations. Club Weapon certainly has its origins in the question "but why can't I club him with the flat of the blade". In a game where I did not allow Club Weapon (or the maneuver simply did not exist), I could certainly allow HTH damage to be enhanced by using the flat of the blade as an improvised weapon. Those rules have been around for much longer than Club Weapon. All Club Weapon actually does is set a DC for DC damage conversion.

[Lucius]

Re: Advantages on Strength, with limitations, Advantages and Martial Arts

 

That's what an AVAD Does Bod does.........or a Mental Blast, Does BOD.

 

Yes. And your point? Or did you just say that for the novelty of having me agree with you?

 

 

One more time:

 

STR does damage (when used to hit someone.)

 

Blast does damage.

 

Hand to Hand Attack does damage.

 

Ranged Killing Attack does damage.

 

Hand to Hand Killing Attack does damage.

 

Telekinesis used to strike does damage.

 

Move Through does damage.

 

Martial Strike does damage.

 

Your "AVAD Does BOD" does damage, assuming the underlying Power you're modifying would do damage.

 

A "Mental Blast Does BOD" does damage. So does a Mental Blast that does NOT do BODY, it just does only STUN damage.

 

Blast, Explosion, Charges, OAF does damage.

 

Ranged Killing Attack, Reduced END Cost, does damage.

 

So do a hundred other variations we could list.

 

 

But some Powers do not do damage. Entangle does not do damage. Flash does not do damage. And Drain does not do damage, even if it Drains BOD and STUN. If you lose BOD or STUN to a Drain, you're going to record it seperately from damage. Those points don't come back according to your RECovery or by the use of Regeneration. They come back according to the schedule described in the Drain Power, possibly adjusted by an Advantage. Just like any other Characteristic or Power that is Drained.

 

 

Hand to Hand Attack and Hand to Hand Killing Attack are both powers that do damage, have no Range, and are augmented by STR. If one is objectionable, both are.

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Augmented by Palindromedaries

[Christopher]

Re: Advantages on Strength, with limitations, Advantages and Martial Arts

 

And Drain does not do damage' date=' even if it Drains BOD and STUN.[/quote']

With only on exception:

Drain STUN counts for calculation of being Stunned (both with a single attack, and when using Combined Attack).

 

Hand to Hand Attack and Hand to Hand Killing Attack are both powers that do damage' date=' have no Range, and are augmented by STR. If one is objectionable, both are.[/quote']

I agree:

HTH is STR, only adds to Damage with a Mandatory -1/4 Limitation

HKA is STR, only adds to Damage with the bonus of making the attack Killing and no Mandatory Limitation.

Sounds like "does Killing Damage" is a 1/4 Advantage (or 1/4 less Limitation).

If you don't like 55 STR Bricks getting a whole 12 DC HKA for only 5 Points, you can just enforce the "not more than doubling DC's" rule - wich could then equally affect HTH-Attacks, if you desire too.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Advantages on Strength, with limitations, Advantages and Martial Arts

 

HTH is STR, only adds to Damage with a Mandatory -1/4 Limitation

HKA is STR, only adds to Damage with the bonus of making the attack Killing and no Mandatory Limitation.

Sounds like "does Killing Damage" is a 1/4 Advantage (or 1/4 less Limitation).

 

HKA cannot be STR that only adds to damage, as STR does not do killing damage on its own. HTH attacks can be STR that only does normal damage - doing normal damage is a subset of the abilities STR provides on its own, with no other powers.

 

If you don't like 55 STR Bricks getting a whole 12 DC HKA for only 5 Points' date=' you can just enforce the "not more than doubling DC's" rule - wich could then equally affect HTH-Attacks, if you desire too.[/quote']

 

Yes, we can go back to 5e and prior to cap at doubling. I argued for no additions, not capping at doubling. Why? Because we should not have:

 

Character A - 30 STR (20 points) + 2d6 HKA (30 points) - gets all advantages of 30 STR and a 4d6 HKA

 

Character B - 10 STR (0 points) + 3d6 + 1 HKA (50 points) - gets a 4d6 HKA, but only the advantages of 10 STR.

 

Character B is clearly less powerful for the same point cost - he gains less for his 50 points than Character A does. Why? Because we give you something for nothing by allowing STR to augment HKA's.

 

By contrast,

 

Character A - 30 STR (20 points) + 6d6 HTH Attack (30/1.25 = 24 points) - gets all advantages of 30 STR and a 12d6 HTH attack

 

Character B - 10 STR (0 points) + 10d6 HTH attack (50/1.25 = 40 points) - gets a 12d6 HKA, but only the advantages of 10 STR, and pays 4 less points

 

We can quibble over the relative values (I think -1/4 is a pretty minimal limitation - I'd rather see -1/2 for "only HTH damage" with -1/4 providing for Grabs and similar as well), but the character who got less versatility also paid less points.

 

Character C buys 10 STR (0 points) and a 4d6 RKA, no Range (60/1.5 = 40 points). He gets 4d6 killing damage plus he can use the Spreading mechanic, and he spent less points than Character B to have more options. Using Blast, No Range would cost the same as HTH Attack, and allow Spreading as well, which backs up my belief that -1/4 is not an adequate limitation.

[Grailknight]

Re: Advantages on Strength, with limitations, Advantages and Martial Arts

 

I have a different approach to this but i'm starting from a different assumption.

 

HA should never have been added to the game. It is a power based on real world logic that does not apply to a supers game.

 

Example: You are at worksite and a crazed robber attacks you. You look around for something to defend yourself with and see: a towel, a board, a hammer and a book. The hammer and the board would be the most effective weapons but you could use the towel or book to block an attack so everything is useful in combat.

Example 2- superworld. You are giving a STR exhibiton, breaking tree stumps and bending girders for charity when attacked by a crazed supervillain. You ARE a superior weapon to the girders and tree stumps lying about. You should no more attack with them than pick up a pillow to fight off a home invasion. It makes DRAMATIC sense to use weapons of opportuntiy but usually makes no actual sense as you are choosing an inferior attack.

 

The answer we've used is that there are 4 basic attack powers

1- strike (HTH) no range but STR adds to damage

2- blast has range and can be spread

3- HKA no range but STR adds

4- RKA again range and can spread

 

At purchase HTH must be define as the main attack or as an add to STR. Advantages can only apply to the main attack and the add on is prorated.

 

Been using this method since 4th and it's helped keep it simple and balanced in our games but YMMV.

[Lucius]

Re: Advantages on Strength, with limitations, Advantages and Martial Arts

 

I have a different approach to this but i'm starting from a different assumption.

 

HA should never have been added to the game. It is a power based on real world logic that does not apply to a supers game.

 

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Hero System is not just Champions!

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Heroic palindromedary

[Grailknight]

Re: Advantages on Strength, with limitations, Advantages and Martial Arts

 

Not saying it is. I posted the house rules we use at every level of HERO. But you are correct as I did not fully elaborate. If an object of opportunity has a higher DEF than your pd it can be used as a weapon. Add 1/4 of its DEF to your STR up to double .

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Advantages on Strength, with limitations, Advantages and Martial Arts

 

Just an add-on from another thread...

 

I think an important principle in Hero is that X=X

 

If X

 

When a Hero player thinks that X

 

As indicated above, the "STR adds to HKA" seems, to me, to create "X<>X" situations.