What defines a Superhuman?

[RexMundi]

Re: What defines a Superhuman?

 

Well' date=' there's the link RexMundi provided and there's a been a few other accounts. I was rather impressed with that one myself. The one's I've heard have been matters of minutes, maybe an hour not days.[/quote']

 

I just did a weeks worth of Cryonics fact checking for a character build, heh. Found a lot of nifty stuff. Apparently if you beat the crystallization issue the rest is a walk in the park comparatively speaking.....

 

~Rex....says you'd be amazed at what Humans pull off all the time. Been TV shows on it.

[Arkham]

Re: What defines a Superhuman?

 

I wouldn't say getting Powers (in the Hero System mechanics sense) automatically makes a character superhuman. Like allot of things its boils down to special effects. Power can represent everything from perfectly mundane equipment to exceptional (but mundane in the sense any human could theoretically learn them) talents.

 

But talents should be written up as Talents, not Powers. And Equipment is also its own seperate list. Just because you _can_ write up someone's spoon, doesn't make having a spoon a superpower. ( Except for when it does. )

[Mister E]

Re: What defines a Superhuman?

 

Well' date=' there's the link RexMundi provided and there's a been a few other accounts. I was rather impressed with that one myself. The one's I've heard have been matters of minutes, maybe an hour not days.[/quote']

 

Nobody has really been frozen & defrosted quite so well as Captain America. He pulled a Buck Rogers on everybody.

[RexMundi]

Re: What defines a Superhuman?

 

Nobody has really been frozen & defrosted quite so well as Captain America. He pulled a Buck Rogers on everybody.

 

Yeah but if we constantly keep reverting to "This has never happened in the Real World!" we sort of defeat the purpose of a good comic story in the first place.....and the real world shows us stuff Daily that was Impossible the day before.....relatively speaking.

 

~Rex

[phoenix240]

Re: What defines a Superhuman?

 

Nobody has really been frozen & defrosted quite so well as Captain America. He pulled a Buck Rogers on everybody.

 

Well, no but that wasn't my point. The idea was what Cap went through could be seen as an ehanced version of these incidents just like everyone else he does is "human" but dailed up to 11. It's one way to justify it under the he's the ultimate in human potential idea. I generally feel its just a handwave to comic book science like how Mr Freeze can freeze people solid but they're fine when Batman melts them out sometimes hours later.

[Lucius]

Re: What defines a Superhuman?

 

I wouldn't say getting Powers (in the Hero System mechanics sense) automatically makes a character superhuman. Like allot of things its boils down to special effects. Power can represent everything from perfectly mundane equipment to exceptional (but mundane in the sense any human could theoretically learn them) talents.

 

By Arkham's definition, (almost) every human is a superhuman.

 

Every character starts with some free Running, Swimming, and Leaping, which are all Powers.

 

For that matter, Senses are Powers and all characters start with five of them. I guess one could sell them all back, but that would make no sense.

 

That was kind of my point in posting Sue Perhugh-Mann. She has an array of 20 different Powers, making her definitely superhuman by Arkham's definition but I would not consider her so (despite the name.)

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

And a perfectly normal palindromedary

[Mister E]

Re: What defines a Superhuman?

 

Yeah but if we constantly keep reverting to "This has never happened in the Real World!" we sort of defeat the purpose of a good comic story in the first place.....and the real world shows us stuff Daily that was Impossible the day before.....relatively speaking.

 

~Rex

 

If it actually happened, then it is possible. That, and there is no need to be superhuman to recover from being frozen solid for any particular length of time. People are naturally so. There is nothing miraculous about it.

 

[edit]: I'd be more surprised if people weren't perfectly preserved having been frozen solid. =)

[RexMundi]

Re: What defines a Superhuman?

 

If it actually happened' date=' then it is possible. That, and there is no need to be superhuman to recover from being frozen solid for any particular length of time. People are naturally so. There is nothing miraculous about it.[/quote']

 

Key thing though. Captain America was never Frozen Solid. That implies Crystallization with all the exploded cells and what not. It's not to much to disbelieve let's say, that the Pinnacle of Human Perfection should be better at doing stuff along the lines of Wim Hof, then said Wim Hof should be able to do....

 

Suspended Animation of various types is fairly common in comics (much less SF), from Buck Rogers forward, hence with that in the playing field, really all Cap did, was do it by falling into very cold water. When you look at it from the scope of acceptability of the Comic Book World it is happening in, then it's a different dog and pony show.

If you do to much hair splitting on the trivial stuff just so folks can win a terminology debate, then you have to start getting into things like "Why doesn't Cyclop's Head get ripped off his neck with every Optic Blast...", "How come Iron Man isn't a puddle of Goo inside his Armor when he pulls a 40 G turn.." and all that other "Not Relevant to the scale of a Comic Book and or Comic Game" stuff.... The Real World stuff is just there to give you the jumping off point for an expansion into the Comic Book stuff, and even still, The Real World stuff gets closer to a comic book every day.

 

That's why I refer to the folks like Captain America as a Super Human (as opposed to Thor let's say who is Superhuman). It's in that scope of potential. Maybe not now, but someday. We pull off stuff Now that was Impossible a few generations ago, so it's not that much of a stretch.

 

~Rex

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: What defines a Superhuman?

 

I think it boils down to this: if you have to invoke magic or rubber science to fully explain an ability, then its a superpower.

 

For example, a long-distance runner is only able to sustain a certain speed so long as he consumes enough fuel to provide the required energy, his lungs can provide enough oxygen to sustain the effort, and his body can shed the excess heat generated by his physical exertion. Exceeding these limits requires more than training and willpower, it requires some way of assisting the athlete (superpowers) so that one or more of these barriers to "improved performance" is pushed back.

[RexMundi]

Re: What defines a Superhuman?

 

I think it boils down to this: if you have to invoke magic or rubber science to fully explain an ability, then its a superpower.

 

For example, a long-distance runner is only able to sustain a certain speed so long as he consumes enough fuel to provide the required energy, his lungs can provide enough oxygen to sustain the effort, and his body can shed the excess heat generated by his physical exertion. Exceeding these limits requires more than training and willpower, it requires some way of assisting the athlete (superpowers) so that one or more of these barriers to "improved performance" is pushed back.

 

Yeah but remember, Athletes today do stuff routinely that was world record breaking earth shattering not to long back. And none of those people are the Pinnacle of Perfection. So the Rubber Science applies to aspects, but when you are talking comics or comic settings, there has to be some Rubber Science in the equation just so normal people aren't killed by the thousands when the Hulk knocks over Downtown NYC.

 

~Rex

[Enforcer84]

Re: What defines a Superhuman?

 

They explain the Endurance and being on Ice thing. Again' date=' it fits [u']Comic Book Logic[/u]. The Super Soldier Serum just increases the normal Deep Dive reflex and allows for Hibernation as well.....

 

As for the whole coming back from Frozen stuff. Gets better every year and not even that hard to google up if folks need "internet Proof!" to satve off the "Where's the Link!" rage, heh.....

 

http://www.news.com.au/technology/sci-tech/british-baby-girl-brought-back-to-life-after-being-frozen-for-three-days/story-fn5fsgyc-1226015463826

 

~Rex

 

To levels no one else can have. And he didn't age.

[Enforcer84]

Re: What defines a Superhuman?

 

Key thing though. Captain America was never Frozen Solid. That implies Crystallization with all the exploded cells and what not. It's not to much to disbelieve let's say, that the Pinnacle of Human Perfection should be better at doing stuff along the lines of Wim Hof, then said Wim Hof should be able to do....

 

Suspended Animation of various types is fairly common in comics (much less SF), from Buck Rogers forward, hence with that in the playing field, really all Cap did, was do it by falling into very cold water. When you look at it from the scope of acceptability of the Comic Book World it is happening in, then it's a different dog and pony show.

If you do to much hair splitting on the trivial stuff just so folks can win a terminology debate, then you have to start getting into things like "Why doesn't Cyclop's Head get ripped off his neck with every Optic Blast...", "How come Iron Man isn't a puddle of Goo inside his Armor when he pulls a 40 G turn.." and all that other "Not Relevant to the scale of a Comic Book and or Comic Game" stuff.... The Real World stuff is just there to give you the jumping off point for an expansion into the Comic Book stuff, and even still, The Real World stuff gets closer to a comic book every day.

 

That's why I refer to the folks like Captain America as a Super Human (as opposed to Thor let's say who is Superhuman). It's in that scope of potential. Maybe not now, but someday. We pull off stuff Now that was Impossible a few generations ago, so it's not that much of a stretch.

 

~Rex

 

If everyone who fell into the arctice ended up as block of ice totem polls I'd agree. But they didn't.

[RexMundi]

Re: What defines a Superhuman?

 

To levels no one else can have. And he didn't age.

 

Yet, I can name a good dozen non-super soldier folks in the comics that have no powers that can hang at near the same level of Cap, and if Age is a function of things wearing out, Cap doesn't really wear out (Though he Has. Twice if not three times if plot demands it). And he Ages, just Slower because the deterioration is slower because he's operating at the best Genetic Level possible for the Human Being (one could say, he has returned to the Biblical Lifespan, his DNA is perfect and not full of Erroneous crap anymore, that sorta thing).....

 

Nick Fury isn't Super Human yet he's still kicking around (sure...Comic Reasons as to why but still kicking), and so are more then a few others I can think of that weren't frozen in a block of ice for a few generations.

 

Also, standard Mechanics for Suspended Animation. No Aging while under the effect. otherwise it's not Suspended Animation. Slow down all metabolic processes, and things age at that rate of speed. *shrug* ..... AND, Cap's not the only one with it (The SS effect).... Hasn't been for a LONG time. Get's even messier over in the Ultimate Universe but I try and Ignore that line of comics as best I can....

 

Again, the Term I use is "A Super Human" ....not Superhuman. Seriously we can hair split on this all day but I'm gonna side on the Comic Side of things every time. Like was mentioned before, in the Game it's EASY. Anything over a Stat of "X " (as determined by the GM) is Superhuman. Anything with a Power that folks can't do (like Fly unaided) is Superhuman. And even if you are building something decidedly mundane (like Parkour), as a power, doesn't make it a super power. ...Everything else is just hair splitting terminology in the face of a simple presentation and scale. Apples to Apples.

 

~Rex

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: What defines a Superhuman?

 

The way I rationalize it is that the super-soldier serum in him acted as an anti-freeze that kept ice crystals from forming in, and puncturing, his cells. Much like the kind that frogs have so that they can survive freezing in the winter. I'm not sure if the human body is built so that the central nervous system thaws first as it does with frogs, but the science involved is far less rubbery than his shield, so I doubt it'll really cause too many problems.

 

Of course, given the human propensity for making silly things seem possible in real life, I imagine that someone has, or soon will have, developed a plausible explanation for Cap's shield. After all, they've made one for everything else in comics.

 

Virtually,

Bodkins Odds

[RexMundi]

Re: What defines a Superhuman?

 

The way I rationalize it is that the super-soldier serum in him acted as an anti-freeze that kept ice crystals from forming in, and puncturing, his cells. Much like the kind that frogs have so that they can survive freezing in the winter. I'm not sure if the human body is built so that the central nervous system thaws first as it does with frogs, but the science involved is far less rubbery than his shield, so I doubt it'll really cause too many problems.

 

Of course, given the human propensity for making silly things seem possible in real life, I imagine that someone has, or soon will have, developed a plausible explanation for Cap's shield. After all, they've made one for everything else in comics.

 

Virtually,

Bodkins Odds

 

Heh, that's not a rationalization, that's how it actually worked in the comic. As for the Shield, was an alloy of Vibranium and Some sort of Iron/Steel Alloy they were mucking about with (The Adamantium/Vibranium info is actually a Misprint that snuck into OHOTMU. Adamantium was invented further down the road in an attempt to duplicate Cap's shield)..... So the SHIELD, would definitely be Superhuman.

 

~Rex

[RexMundi]

Re: What defines a Superhuman?

 

Heh, that's not a rationalization, that's how it actually worked in the comic. As for the Shield, was an alloy of Vibranium and Some sort of Iron/Steel Alloy they were mucking about with (The Adamantium/Vibranium info is actually a Misprint that snuck into OHOTMU. Adamantium was invented further down the road in an attempt to duplicate Cap's shield)..... So the SHIELD, would definitely be Superhuman.

 

~Rex

 

Also to quote myself, the Serum isn't really all Serum either. There was a stabilizing component, and a component something like a Virus as well. They started piling that one in there when nitpickers were picking at them back in the late 80's and 90's....

 

~Rex

[Lucius]

Re: What defines a Superhuman?

 

And everyone forgets the vita-rays

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary asks, what?

[RexMundi]

Re: What defines a Superhuman?

 

That's the stabilizing Component. Though with the Iron Age, they weren't to worried about that particular component.

 

~Rex

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: What defines a Superhuman?

 

Yes, but the Cap had already been zapped by the vita-rays, which I am convinced was a partially succesful attempt at synthetic Power Cosmic along with so-called "gamma" radiation, and I didn't really want to get into the quagmire surrounding why/how/if he still has serum in his blood. As to the rationalization thing, I have to admit that I still haven't read the issue in which the Cap was thawed out, so I didn't realize it was the canon explanation.

 

Virtually,

Bodkins Odds

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: What defines a Superhuman?

 

Yeah but remember' date=' Athletes today do stuff routinely that was world record breaking earth shattering not to long back. And none of those people are the Pinnacle of Perfection.[/quote']

 

However, they are limited to real-world physics. There is a theoretical limit to what any animal can do. In a comic-book world, sufficient training can elevate anyone who is dedicated enough, to PoP (Pinnacle of Perfection) levels, but no amount of training can bestow talents (without GM approval, anyway), or non-inherent (for humans, that is) powers and/or abilities, nor can training and exercise alone enable Batman, f'rinstance, to exceed PoP levels of performance. That takes something extra, something normals don't have. That something extra is the very essence of superpower, and in my campaigns, I do not limit that something to a single source (or perhaps the source appears to be different, depending upon the observer, sort of like quantum science or relativity). If that "something extra" is a mundane device, it might still not be considered a "superpower", but equipment.

 

In my superhero campaigns*, a PoP (otherwise unpowered) character could have characteristics up to the maximums. I can't find my Fred right now so the following examples might not be exact:

 

1. Base characteristics STR-COM maximum 30 points: STR may be pushed to 40
   
2. Figured Characteristics may not be raised over the maximum except by having a figured value greater than maximum already.
   
3. Movement maximums may not be exceeded except by pushing.
   
4. No maximum amounts for skills
   
5. Reduced End limited to 1/2 END cost for innate abilities (running, swimming, STR, etc.)
   

I'm not saying that's how it should be done, but that the definition of "Super-" matters enough to spend a little time on deciding what it means in your campaign world.

 

*Egad! I just realized it's been over 17 years since I was part of a regular gaming group!

[Mister E]

Re: What defines a Superhuman?

 

If Cap is only a Super Human & not Superhuman, then I don't see how there can be any argument that Conan pwnz. =P

[RexMundi]

Re: What defines a Superhuman?

 

Was that ever an Argument?

 

~Rex

[Mister E]

Re: What defines a Superhuman?

 

Was that ever an Argument?

 

~Rex

 

Of course not. Nothing is more self-evident than Conan's pwnage.

[RexMundi]

Re: What defines a Superhuman?

 

Conan has beaten Thor. Of course he can beat Captain America.

 

He's just gonna limp away from that one knowing he's been in a fight.

 

~Rex

[Mister E]

Re: What defines a Superhuman?

 

Conan has beaten Thor. Of course he can beat Captain America.

 

He's just gonna limp away from that one knowing he's been in a fight.

 

~Rex

 

Both Cap & Thor are lucky they aren't women.