Repercussions of mass-producing comic book technology

[Lucius]

Re: Repercussions of mass-producing comic book technology

 

Regarding Human upgrades: A lot depends on who gets them and how many.

 

Regarding extended lifespan and contraception: The problem is, almost everyone wants to live longer. Far too many people just won't want to restrain their breeding, no mater how patiently you explain consequences to them.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Upgrading a palindromedary to three humps

[megaplayboy]

Re: Repercussions of mass-producing comic book technology

 

Regarding Human upgrades: A lot depends on who gets them and how many.

 

Regarding extended lifespan and contraception: The problem is, almost everyone wants to live longer. Far too many people just won't want to restrain their breeding, no mater how patiently you explain consequences to them.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Upgrading a palindromedary to three humps

 

Well, there are ways to do it: let's say that, due to the biotech revolution, the annual global death rate drops to 50 million a year. That means you could have a stable population if your birthrates are around 50 million a year as well. So the UN prints up 50 million "licenses" and puts them in a "lottery", assigned to applicants by random determination. If someone wants to have kids and doesn't have a license, they can bargain with a license-holder for one. Alternatively, the licenses are randomly determined but the license recipients are crossed off the list for the following years. This means that, sooner or later, everyone is likely to get a license. There could also be a 50 or 100 year exception--if you haven't received a license in the past 50-100 years, you get one via waiver. If someone wants more than one child within a short time frame, most likely they'll have to trade for it.

The alternative is watching non-participating countries breed themselves to the brink of extinction before clueing in.

[phoenix240]

Re: Repercussions of mass-producing comic book technology

 

Extended lifespan would actually have the biggest impact on culture' date=' particularly if it slowed or arrested the visible effects of aging. There'd be a lot of public debate about overpopulation and "rationing" future children. Now, if you combined arrested aging(i.e. quasi-eternal youth) with the above-mentioned Striking Appearance(which, ironically, would result in citizens looking pretty much like they do in comic books--idealized and sort of generically good-looking), immunity to HIV and STDs, and idiot-proof contraception(think Norplant for men and women, with no side effects and a 5 year duration)--you'd get a second Sexual Revolution, albeit one on mega-steroids.[/quote']

 

I think allot depends on how expensive this stuff is. Pure market driven costing would make it fairly expensive, IMO, so allot of benefit for the "right people", for the less privileged not so much and now they're "betters" are going to outlive them by decades.

 

If these are going to be made commonly available, the effects of extended lifespans might be for more profound. Society might actually become more conservative in some ways but concerns like enviornmentalism might get more focus since more people will be around to actually feel the effects of long term problems.

[phoenix240]

Re: Repercussions of mass-producing comic book technology

 

Well, there are ways to do it: let's say that, due to the biotech revolution, the annual global death rate drops to 50 million a year. That means you could have a stable population if your birthrates are around 50 million a year as well. So the UN prints up 50 million "licenses" and puts them in a "lottery", assigned to applicants by random determination. If someone wants to have kids and doesn't have a license, they can bargain with a license-holder for one. Alternatively, the licenses are randomly determined but the license recipients are crossed off the list for the following years. This means that, sooner or later, everyone is likely to get a license. There could also be a 50 or 100 year exception--if you haven't received a license in the past 50-100 years, you get one via waiver. If someone wants more than one child within a short time frame, most likely they'll have to trade for it.

The alternative is watching non-participating countries breed themselves to the brink of extinction before clueing in.

 

Not to be cynical, but I think the latter is the more likely path for the US at least. At least before I see it submitting to UN control "baby lotto".

 

And what do you with "illegal" pregnacies?

[megaplayboy]

Re: Repercussions of mass-producing comic book technology

 

Not to be cynical, but I think the latter is the more likely path for the US at least. At least before I see it submitting to UN control "baby lotto".

 

And what do you with "illegal" pregnacies?

 

I think there would have to be some sort of meaningful disincentive--you lose rights to any future license, you don't get tax breaks or welfare benefits for "unauthorized" kids, and CPS watches you like a hawk.

In theory, you could go the "one or two children per family" route, but if the great-grandparents, grandparents, parents, kids, grandkids, great-grandkids, etc. are all around at the same time, seems like the population would still be growing...

[Steve]

Re: Repercussions of mass-producing comic book technology

 

Some thoughts I had regarding the upgrade process and some side effects.

 

1) The process is about only modestly expensive, about $1k-$2k for the injection, and about $10k for the biotube treatment.

 

2) I'm thinking that due to the FDA probably freaking out over the idea of genetic modification to the populace, the treatment would require going to less regulated countries like Mexico, Cuba or maybe India.

 

3) The militaries of the world might be quite interested. The ability to take every recruit and make him into a very low-end super-soldier for only a modest investment would probably be very enticing.

 

4) The process does cause reproductive side effects. Due to the altered genetics creating what is effectively a new species of mankind, the chance of conception drops depending on a few factors. Male upgrades are unable to conceive with a normal human female without medical assistance to prevent the fetus being rejected by the mother's body, and the same occurs with a female upgrade and a normal human male. With two upgrades, the chance of conception is about half of normal for regular humans.

[Steve]

Re: Repercussions of mass-producing comic book technology

 

Extended lifespan would actually have the biggest impact on culture' date=' particularly if it slowed or arrested the visible effects of aging. There'd be a lot of public debate about overpopulation and "rationing" future children. Now, if you combined arrested aging(i.e. quasi-eternal youth) with the above-mentioned Striking Appearance(which, ironically, would result in citizens looking pretty much like they do in comic books--idealized and sort of generically good-looking), immunity to HIV and STDs, and idiot-proof contraception(think Norplant for men and women, with no side effects and a 5 year duration)--you'd get a second Sexual Revolution, albeit one on mega-steroids.[/quote']

 

You make good points. I guess there could be developments like in the movie Gattaca, that upgrades get some preferential treatment. Since we are talking futuristic genetic technology suddenly available now, today, an implant preventing pregnancy from occurring would be possible.

 

Another thing to consider would be any age limits on how old you needed to be to get the treatment. If one requirement was to be post-puberty or at least well along into puberty, you could have upgraded teens but not upgraded children.

 

I wonder if upgrades would be considered ineligible from competition? I'm imagining a senior class football team of upgrades, and a cheerleader squad of upgraded girls at games.

 

Would it be considered like steroid usage? How might professional athletics or college athletics respond?

[phoenix240]

Re: Repercussions of mass-producing comic book technology

 

I think there would have to be some sort of meaningful disincentive--you lose rights to any future license, you don't get tax breaks or welfare benefits for "unauthorized" kids, and CPS watches you like a hawk.

...

 

With restricted benefits for illegal kids you run into the dilema of punishing the children for the crimes of their parents particularly since illegal births are probably more likely among the poor and underprivileged in the first place. And if they do occur among the upper class cutting benefits is much less of a punishment.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Repercussions of mass-producing comic book technology

 

With restricted benefits for illegal kids you run into the dilema of punishing the children for the crimes of their parents particularly since illegal births are probably more likely among the poor and underprivileged in the first place. And if they do occur among the upper class cutting benefits is much less of a punishment.

 

Well, I think mandatory universal contraception(ala the Norplant-like option I mentioned above) is probably the least intrusive--if there's zero chance of accidental pregnancy, then all pregnancies become intentional. In the alternative you could massively incentivize NOT having children, to the point where it would become more attractive in the short term than having kids.

[Steve]

Re: Repercussions of mass-producing comic book technology

 

Thinking about teen culture, there could be profound effects from some of the suggestions I made in this thread.

 

1) Near-sentient androids could become substitutes for real people in dating situations. Would it lead to increased confidence in dealing with the opposite sex, or would it be seen as preferable to dealing with fears of rejection. What would peer pressure be like?

 

2) Teenage genetic upgrades would possibly increase body issues. If you could drive down to Mexico and spend a day in a biotube, coming out as an optimized, attractive version of yourself, would it become a new fad of sorts?

[phoenix240]

Re: Repercussions of mass-producing comic book technology

 

Well' date=' I think mandatory universal contraception(ala the Norplant-like option I mentioned above) is probably the least intrusive--if there's zero chance of accidental pregnancy, then all pregnancies become intentional. In the alternative you could massively incentivize NOT having children, to the point where it would become more attractive in the short term than having kids.[/quote']

 

It could work but I think you (general you) would run into some serious protests and civil disobedience from a significant portion of the population, especially at first and particularly in the US. The govornement, let alone the UN stepping in and inforcing who can get pregnant and when would outrage any number of groups from strong liberatarians to conservative Christians. Look at the trouble voluntarily free/govorenment paid for birth control and family planning already run into.

 

Eventualy society would change but I think there would be period, perhaps a couple of generations, of societal upheaval from dropping these kinds of develops into popular distribution immediately. It might be an improvement in the long run but the "growing pains" might be pretty tumultuous. But really all these depends on how wide spread the upgrades are. If just the very wealthy that can afford them things don't change that much from a certain perspetive. You have rich, healither, smarter upper class and a short lived underclass which would likely come to seen as "disposable". The differences just become more acute and profound.

 

Of coure, these are just some possibilities. But I think it goes to show the level of thought a potential super inventor woudl have to go through before deciding to drop any major technological marvels into the open market. The consequences could be vast and not entirely predictable.

[phoenix240]

Re: Repercussions of mass-producing comic book technology

 

Thinking about teen culture, there could be profound effects from some of the suggestions I made in this thread.

 

1) Near-sentient androids could become substitutes for real people in dating situations. Would it lead to increased confidence in dealing with the opposite sex, or would it be seen as preferable to dealing with fears of rejection. What would peer pressure be like?

 

2) Teenage genetic upgrades would possibly increase body issues. If you could drive down to Mexico and spend a day in a biotube, coming out as an optimized, attractive version of yourself, would it become a new fad of sorts?

 

One potential impact of increased life spans, decreaed accidental mortality and restricted breeding on youth culture is that it would quickly shrink. Fewer children and society would quickly age eventually becoming a rare breed over the years.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Repercussions of mass-producing comic book technology

 

One potential impact of increased life spans' date=' decreaed accidental mortality and restricted breeding on youth culture is that it would quickly shrink. Fewer children and society would quickly age eventually becoming a rare breed over the years.[/quote']

 

But, if visible aging is noticeably slower, then youth culture may just expand to cover a broader age range.

"Don't trust anyone over 100".

[phoenix240]

Re: Repercussions of mass-producing comic book technology

 

But, if visible aging is noticeably slower, then youth culture may just expand to cover a broader age range.

"Don't trust anyone over 100".

 

I was thinking psychologically.A 50 year old that looks like, and is physically fit as, an 18 yr old still wouldn't think like an 18 yr old, IMO. And if they did it would be an 18 yr old from 32 yr ago.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Repercussions of mass-producing comic book technology

 

I was thinking psychologically.A 50 year old that looks like' date=' and is physically fit as, an 18 yr old still wouldn't think like an 18 yr old, IMO. And if they did it would be an 18 yr old from 32 yr ago.[/quote']

 

But, this is a 50 year old who, if they wanted to, could still hang out at the same clubs, watch the same shows, etc. One who isn't feeling the adverse effects of aging, whose brain is as capable of adapting to new stimuli and changing times as said 18 year old, etc. So, they wouldn't think like an 18 year old, but they wouldn't think like a 50 year old, either. They'd perhaps represent "old school youth culture" or somesuch. At any rate, it'd create a different sort of culture clash.

 

"Grandpa, quit hitting on my girlfriends!"

[Steve]

Re: Repercussions of mass-producing comic book technology

 

But, this is a 50 year old who, if they wanted to, could still hang out at the same clubs, watch the same shows, etc. One who isn't feeling the adverse effects of aging, whose brain is as capable of adapting to new stimuli and changing times as said 18 year old, etc. So, they wouldn't think like an 18 year old, but they wouldn't think like a 50 year old, either. They'd perhaps represent "old school youth culture" or somesuch. At any rate, it'd create a different sort of culture clash.

 

"Grandpa, quit hitting on my girlfriends!"

 

If visible aging effects are retarded, how might that affect relationships between two people of different ages? A mature person of 50 suddenly has the body of a 25-year old again, and that regenerated body has at least one or more levels of Striking Appearance, woukd they be more likely to spend time with other upgraded 50-year olds with similar levels of life experience or take advantage of their youthful looks and go party with the younger people?

[phoenix240]

Re: Repercussions of mass-producing comic book technology

 

But, this is a 50 year old who, if they wanted to, could still hang out at the same clubs, watch the same shows, etc. One who isn't feeling the adverse effects of aging, whose brain is as capable of adapting to new stimuli and changing times as said 18 year old, etc. So, they wouldn't think like an 18 year old, but they wouldn't think like a 50 year old, either. They'd perhaps represent "old school youth culture" or somesuch. At any rate, it'd create a different sort of culture clash.

 

"Grandpa, quit hitting on my girlfriends!"

 

Changes in behavior and outlook don't just stem from brain changes but simple experience too. The years will add up, some thingd will loose their luster over time and outlooks will changes and not just due to decreasing ability. The mind can calify due to lack of change and if not that, it will change in some ways. I've read there's evidence to human doesn't even fully mature until the late teens if not slightly later. I tend to think that longer lived adults would tend to act closer to their chonological age than their physical age.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that this sort of technological change would create a raft of new socialogical issues that would take awhile to settle down and the results might look very different from our current society. In the long term, they would be improvement but the road there might be pretty rocky. These would be huge changes, similar to the Industrial Revolution and that created waves in human culture that are still settling down today.

[Marcus Impudite]

Re: Repercussions of mass-producing comic book technology

 

Assuming it became available in the civillain market, force field technology could revolutionize security, home or otherwise. If the bank gets robbed, one of the tellers just hits the hidden switch to activate a force field between them and the robber for protection or even cage the criminal with one until the cops can come cart the loser off to the slammer. Imagine the frustration of your typical burglar, home invader, or Jehovah's Witness when they find their access to your property denied by an invisible dome of energy, doubly so if said dome has a "backlash" to it as well...

[sinanju]

Re: Repercussions of mass-producing comic book technology

 

Well, there are ways to do it: let's say that, due to the biotech revolution, the annual global death rate drops to 50 million a year. That means you could have a stable population if your birthrates are around 50 million a year as well. So the UN prints up 50 million "licenses" and puts them in a "lottery", assigned to applicants by random determination. If someone wants to have kids and doesn't have a license, they can bargain with a license-holder for one. Alternatively, the licenses are randomly determined but the license recipients are crossed off the list for the following years. This means that, sooner or later, everyone is likely to get a license. There could also be a 50 or 100 year exception--if you haven't received a license in the past 50-100 years, you get one via waiver. If someone wants more than one child within a short time frame, most likely they'll have to trade for it.

The alternative is watching non-participating countries breed themselves to the brink of extinction before clueing in.

 

Since my self-appointed role in this thread seems to be pointing of SF that addresses the issues in question...let me recommend Larry Niven.

 

His "Known Space" universe included an Earth with a population of 18 billion people. Boosterspice (to keep you young), organ banks (to replace damaged or failing organs) and ultra-tech in general meant lots and lots and lots of people. The UN (world government, more or less) tried several approaches to limiting population growth. They instituted licensing for parenthood--and lots of genetic conditions meant "No license for you!" Contrarily, if you were a proven genius (or had other desirable characteristics), you could get more--or even unlimited--birthrights. They could also be purchased outright for $1,000,000 a pop, on the theory that a) being able to make money was a desirable trait and it cut down on corruption and bribery attempts if you could just openly buy them. They also allowed people to fight for birthrights in the arena. The fights were to the death, with the loser's death balancing the new birthright being handed out. Later on, scandals involving the birthright system led to a revision of the system in which everyone got ONE birthright automatically, but only one--and when deaths outnumbered births in any given year, the difference led to birthrights being given away in a lottery system.

 

Buying Time by Joe Haldeman postulated a world where you could buy eternal youth and health (for ten years at a time) for $1,000,000 or your total net worth, whichever was HIGHER. The $1M was the minimum buy-in for treatment by the Stileman Foundation (which had the secret of immortality), but it always cost everything you owned. You got ten years of renewed youth and health in which to scrape together another million dollars for your next rejuvenation treatment (if you couldn't get it, you died).

 

An important plot point, however, was that

the ten-year limit was entirely artificial, created by the Stileman Foundation to force people to surrender their fortunes over and over again. Once their monopoly was broken, lots of medical organizations were going to be able to provide the service--and it would give you a whole nother lifetime instead of only ten years. It would still be expensive--the long, long list of medical procedures needed to revitalize you required the labor of many, many specialists and would never be cheap--but it was now within reach of many more people. After all, a successful professional who could be expected to earn a lot of money for many more decades more to come was a good credit risk....

 

[Steve]

Re: Repercussions of mass-producing comic book technology

 

Assuming it became available in the civillain market' date=' force field technology could revolutionize security, home or otherwise. If the bank gets robbed, one of the tellers just hits the hidden switch to activate a force field between them and the robber for protection or even cage the criminal with one until the cops can come cart the loser off to the slammer. Imagine the frustration of your typical burglar, home invader, or Jehovah's Witness when they find their access to your property denied by an invisible dome of energy, doubly so if said dome has a "backlash" to it as well...[/quote']

 

Even low-powered force fields would have many uses. If a civilian model maxed out at 6 or 8 defense, you could eliminate a lot of crime. How quickly it activates would affect usage though, and civilian models might have an activation time. But in high-crime areas, a person could activate the field when they leave the house or otherwise treat it like a burglar alarm.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Repercussions of mass-producing comic book technology

 

Heck, phasing out paper money and tightening security for e-credit would eliminate a lot of crime. It would also be problematic for panhandlers in particular.

[phoenix240]

Re: Repercussions of mass-producing comic book technology

 

Assuming it became available in the civillain market' date=' force field technology could revolutionize security, home or otherwise. If the bank gets robbed, one of the tellers just hits the hidden switch to activate a force field between them and the robber for protection or even cage the criminal with one until the cops can come cart the loser off to the slammer. Imagine the frustration of your typical burglar, home invader, or Jehovah's Witness when they find their access to your property denied by an invisible dome of energy, doubly so if said dome has a "backlash" to it as well...[/quote']

 

Of course imagine the criminal uses and it wouldn't take lone for soemone to figure them out. Robbers behind nearly invulnerable (to conventional weapons) force feilds could make that one robbery where the crooks were wearing body armor look like a cake walk. Drug dens and hideouts could have that sort of security too turning raids into effectively seiges or creating almost unstoppable get away vehicles.

 

Supers might find themselves with more work. Or supeior weapons tech and force feild busting technology might have to become avaible, starting the cycle over again.

[Orion]

Re: Repercussions of mass-producing comic book technology

 

So you've got some geniuses that want to do good for the world. Cheap power, medical advances, artificial intelligence. How about that one genius that truly wants to do good for the world, but realizes that the changes are socially unacceptable? It really is good for the world, but some or all societies cannot handle the idea. Maybe the short-term economic upheaval is too much to contemplate, or business concerns won't let it happen because it would ruin them.

 

The specific example I'm thinking about is human reproduction. Too many people = bad. We just can't decide on what number is too many. This genius decides to do something about it. Maybe everyone goes sterile for a couple years, or reproductive rates are cut in half worldwide. Maybe he offers extended lifespan and disease resistance, but tells you up front that it causes permanent sterility.

 

Another one....some people are just loony when it comes to vaccines. They'd rather chance the measles than have the gub'ment tell them what to do. So the genius releases something that effectively vaccinates the world against measles. People can bitch all they want, but they've been vaccinated, and measles will never bother a person again. And since he is a genius, it works as he means it to, and there are no other side effects. If it ever gets out how he did it, then you can imagine the calls by certain governments to use that tech for other purposes, and not always for the general good.

[phoenix240]

Re: Repercussions of mass-producing comic book technology

 

On a lighter note, some of these advancements particularly the medical one might explain some comic tropes and handwaving like how generally attractive and fit looking even more civilians are and the dependibility of technology. Improved medical treatment would certain explain how quickly people bounce back from being smashed through walls, frozen in blocks of ice and hit by plasma bolts.

 

Longer ranged and longer lasting smartphones and laptops are going to make horror and thriller writers' live miserable.

[Lucius]

Re: Repercussions of mass-producing comic book technology

 

I caught a scene on Monk once where Monk and his nurse were trapped in a cave. Monk's about to begin digging out when his cell phone rings.

 

"Can't talk right now, I'm trapped in a cave in." Hang up.

 

Painful silence as he realizes what he just did.

 

Callback. "Sorry about that. I'm trapped in a cave, can you come and help me dig out?"

 

Lucius Alexander

 

And bring a palindromedary