Repercussions of mass-producing comic book technology

[Steve]

In my Icons campaign, instead of following a comic book world setting that obeys the usual tropes, I've been trying to approach it as a simulation about superhumans suddenly appearing in the real world and what could happen.

 

One of those areas I've been considering as a deviation is the release of mass market versions of supertech (known as Icon Tech in the campaign). One of the NPCs, suddenly gifted with the abilities of a super-genius like Lex Luthor or Reed Richards decides to get rich by setting up shop and selling some high-tech wonders. What sort of social issues or legal problems might be encountered when trying to sell something that previously only existed in comic books?

 

1) A fuel cell that costs the same as a regular battery of the same type but lasts ten times as long. The most powerful versions only have a similar output to a car battery.

 

2) A personal communications device that works like a smartphone but has a transmission range measured in hundreds of miles.

 

3) Artificial intelligence androids that are very close to being able to pass a Turing Test but are not truly sentient. The frame is mechanical with a cloned flesh covering that closely mimics the look and feel of a human being. Kind of like a T-800 only no stronger or heavier than an average human being and programmed with Asimov's Three Laws.

[phoenix240]

Re: Repercussions of mass-producing comic book technology

 

3) Artificial intelligence androids that are very close to being able to pass a Turing Test but are not truly sentient. The frame is mechanical with a cloned flesh covering that closely mimics the look and feel of a human being. Kind of like a T-800 only no stronger or heavier than an average human being and programmed with Asimov's Three Laws.

 

If these androids are fairly cheap to buy and maintain there is the prospect of eventual massive unemployment as humans are replaced in most reptitive non mangerial jobs including retail and customer service. They would not need pay, medical coversage, sick leave, vacations or rest and the only relative "edge" human workers had would be gone. I don't think it would be over night but the possibility seems pretty high.

[Steve]

Re: Repercussions of mass-producing comic book technology

 

If these androids are fairly cheap to buy and maintain there is the prospect of eventual massive unemployment as humans are replaced in most reptitive non mangerial jobs including retail and customer service. They would not need pay' date=' medical coversage, sick leave, vacations or rest and the only relative "edge" human workers had would be gone. I don't think it would be over night but the possibility seems pretty high.[/quote']

 

I thought about this as a potential problem before posting, and I was wondering what legal problems could arise if the maker only sold them to individuals, and a company could not buy them like a fleet of cars. Maybe even setting a maximum of one or two per person. Expense-wise, they would be the price of a mid-priced car (say $30K). Maintenance would be something comparable.

 

Of course, a small shop like a dry cleaners or restaurant could buy their personal limit and then put them to work there, or people could act as fronts for larger purchasers.

[Steve]

Re: Repercussions of mass-producing comic book technology

 

Actually, the android technology opens up a related item that could be offered for sale, artificial limbs. Not at the level of super-powered cybernetics, but artificial legs and arms that feel real and provide the normal flesh sensations of a real limb.

[wcw43921]

Re: Repercussions of mass-producing comic book technology

 

1) A fuel cell that costs the same as a regular battery of the same type but lasts ten times as long. The most powerful versions only have a similar output to a car battery.

 

Is it a dry cell or wet cell? A dry cell would be more than welcome in both consumer and military applications. Space agencies would love to have something like this for deep-space/planetary exploration probes.

 

2) A personal communications device that works like a smartphone but has a transmission range measured in hundreds of miles.

 

Definite military applications. The NPC can expect the government to show up at his doorstep with baskets laden with gold, precious gems and various exotic fruits, begging to purchase this device.

 

3) Artificial intelligence androids that are very close to being able to pass a Turing Test but are not truly sentient. The frame is mechanical with a cloned flesh covering that closely mimics the look and feel of a human being. Kind of like a T-800 only no stronger or heavier than an average human being and programmed with Asimov's Three Laws.

 

Now things get interesting. Very interesting. Because if your NPC is of a sufficiently adventurous frame of mind, he might consider the possibility of offering custom-built sex partners. When you consider what people pay for Real Dolls, a Real Doll that can talk and move and actually looks like a real person instead of a soft-skinned mannequin could command any price you can name. Heck, you could staff a brothel with sex androids, and it would be legal just anywhere in the country--after all, it's not prostitution if you're paying for sex with a machine instead of a person. Is it?

 

Hope that helps.

[phoenix240]

Re: Repercussions of mass-producing comic book technology

 

I thought about this as a potential problem before posting, and I was wondering what legal problems could arise if the maker only sold them to individuals, and a company could not buy them like a fleet of cars. Maybe even setting a maximum of one or two per person. Expense-wise, they would be the price of a mid-priced car (say $30K). Maintenance would be something comparable.

 

Of course, a small shop like a dry cleaners or restaurant could buy their personal limit and then put them to work there, or people could act as fronts for larger purchasers.

 

It might be difficult explaining that sort of legislation. Restricting what amounts ot a labor saving device would be new, AFAIK. It would bring up questions about why aren't other sorts of robots similarly restricted.

 

Edit: Not to be totally doom and gloom about it they could be a great boon to feilds where alot of strength, endurance and patiencer are required like long term nursing (at least as assisants and monitors).

[sinanju]

Re: Repercussions of mass-producing comic book technology

 

One legal problem is the possibility of governments seizing such supertech under "national security" or "eminent domain" rules. After all, we can't let John Q. Supergenius be the only one making (whatever it might be).

 

Consider also the Shipstone. This device, mentioned in a number of Robert Heinlein's novels, (which is to an ordinary battery as a nuclear weapon is to a firecracker) provides vast amounts of stored energy for use anywhere you need it. They come in sizes small enough for flashlights or cell phones up to automobile-sized shipstones that power FTL starships. The Shipstone Corporation leases endless square miles of desert for solar collectors to charge the stones.

 

They're also the only people making them. Nobody else knows how. Mr. Shipstone never patented his invention, so there's no documentation. Only he (and later a tiny handful of carefully selected acolytes) know the secret of the shipstone's construction. Anyone who could reverse engineer a Shipstone could be richer than Bill Gates, but nobody's been able to do it. This might be implausible for an ordinary--albeit incredibly valuable--invention. But the fruits of Reed Richards' genius? Or Tony Stark's? I can easily believe that nobody else can figure out how to duplicate it. That gives them incredible leverage.

 

As an example, in the novel Friday

the world is shaken by assassinations, "terrorist" attacks, riots, and all kinds of political and economic chaos over the course of several weeks. Our heroine eventually figures out that what's really going on is a relatively minor fight amongst the highest echelons of the sprawling Shipstone corporation's elite. The Shipstone Corporation is SO fantabulously wealthy and powerful, and has it's fingers in so many other pies--corporations AND governments--that this minor scuffle shakes the world.

 

[Clonus]

Re: Repercussions of mass-producing comic book technology

 

 

A fuel cell that costs the same as a regular battery of the same type but lasts ten times as long. The most powerful versions only have a similar output to a car battery.

 

Well there's no logical reason for an upper limit to the output of course. The results of having such a power cell on the market wouldn't be particularly dramatic. Not in a way that would be immediately observable to a visitor from our universe. For all we know the Marvel universe has just such Reed-designed power cells in all their laptops, flashlights and automobiles. I know I've never seen one run out of power.

 

 

 

2) A personal communications device that works like a smartphone but has a transmission range measured in hundreds of miles.

 

Similarly trivial. It would just mean that gaps in phone coverage only happen when there's an obstacle like mountains or something woo-woo.

 

 

3) Artificial intelligence androids that are very close to being able to pass a Turing Test but are not truly sentient. The frame is mechanical with a cloned flesh covering that closely mimics the look and feel of a human being. Kind of like a T-800 only no stronger or heavier than an average human being and programmed with Asimov's Three Laws.

 

Depends on the expense. Really I'd only expect them to be used for high end receptionists or waitstaff and sex toys and maids for the rich. That degree of similarity to the human form with all of it's limitations has limited utility.

[Steve]

Re: Repercussions of mass-producing comic book technology

 

My reasoning behind the initial examples was to provide high-tech toys to the masses that are a century or two ahead of real-world technology but non-military. The NPC in question wants to get rich, but he wants to do it in such a way that doesn't involve selling weapons.

 

Of the three, it sounds like the one with the most initial impact would be the androids. Price-wise, I'm thinking they would be offered at the same cost as a mid-priced car (say $30k). If he limited purchase amounts to one or two per individual and did not sell them to corporations like they buy fleets of cars, it should hold down the effect of mass unemployment. Iimagine someone buying one that looks just like themselves and sending it to work in their place, earning a permanent vacation with pay.

 

wcw43291 suggested they would be used as sexbots, and I agree. While falling a whisker short of passing the Turing Test in their personalities, they are programmed to mimic human facial expressions and the myriad of random movements that humans do. Being flesh-covered machines with a light-weight metal endoskeleton, they are nearly indistinguishable from a real person. The NPC's initial intent in offering them was to provide a servant to mankind that would free humanity from the need to work. By making them non-sentient but close to Turing-level, it avoids the slave race feel of them.

 

What might be some other supertech wonders that could be marketed to the masses that don't involve weaponry? A laptop with the power of a modern super-computer? Personal spacecraft as expensive as a personal yacht or high-end car?

[Arkham]

Re: Repercussions of mass-producing comic book technology

 

My reasoning behind the initial examples was to provide high-tech toys to the masses that are a century or two ahead of real-world technology but non-military. The NPC in question wants to get rich, but he wants to do it in such a way that doesn't involve selling weapons.

 

 

 

 

 

What might be some other supertech wonders that could be marketed to the masses that don't involve weaponry? A laptop with the power of a modern super-computer? Personal spacecraft as expensive as a personal yacht or high-end car?

 

A century or two? Try 20-30 years...

The development and construction of Spaceship One was $25M, which is less than many yachts. I'm sure if they were to mass-produce them, they would be vastly cheaper.

An iPhone has more processing power and speed than a super-computer of 20 years ago. And the iPads are even more powerful.

[phoenix240]

Re: Repercussions of mass-producing comic book technology

 

One thing to keep in mind is these technologies won't exist in a vaccuum. Unless the character is draconian about keeping his secrets (and even if he is) they likely will be examined, reverse engineered and/or put to uses he didn't intend (or maybe even think of). This could be good or bad, of course. The cloned tissue used for the robots could have huge potential in the biomedical feild. Even the knowledge that these sorts of advancement are possible might spur other researhers to pursue them indendentantly.

 

Of course, this is assuming there isn't something about supertech in your setting that makes it impossible to be duplicated by others.

[Vulcan]

Re: Repercussions of mass-producing comic book technology

 

That superdense fuel cell source would revolutionize electric and hybrid automobiles overnight. You could extend their range by a factor of 10, or reduce the mass of their batteries by a factor of 10 and still increase range by a significant amount from the mass savings. You also open up possibilities for electric semi rigs, and might even boost rail service to competitive levels. Heck, perhaps you might even be able to have fuel-cell powered aircraft - they'd be slower than jets, but not needing expensive aviation fuel could well make them profitable despite the increased travel times. Gang enough of them up and you could power a large cargo ship too.

 

The communications set wouldn't impact the Western world terribly much; we do much the same thing with our existing infrastructure now. It would help extend coverage out into the boonies better, but that's about it. Where it would make a huge difference is in the 3rd world, where the extensive cellular and wi-fi infrastructure doesn't exist.

 

Androids... that's the messy one. Take that one to it's logical extent. Aside from a few people making decisions, there is no need for anyone to work. So... there is no work for anyone to do. Even if you postulate plenty of resources to maintain quality of life, how long is that going to last before mass boredom sets in and we, as a species, go off the deep end?

 

I'm reading a novel - Saturn's Children by Charles Stross - where the human race created just such a android helper. Eventually they were improved to AIs. And eventually the humans just...died off. No plague, no war, they just stopped breeding, populations plummeted below a sustainable level...

 

The pathetic part was that "human society didn't even take a lunch break when the last human beings died off."

 

If you are going to have androids, there MUST BE things humans can do that androids can't... or there likely won't be any reason for there to be humans.

[sinanju]

Re: Repercussions of mass-producing comic book technology

 

Not to mention that understanding how to make something work doesn't necessarily mean you know how to build it. Or that knowing how to build it means you CAN. For instance, microchips require multi-billion-dollar fab facilities to manufacture. Even if Reed Richards can sketch out a plan for a revolutionary new microchip, he's going to need fantastic amounts of cash (and probably the labor of hundreds if not thousands of people) to produce it.

[Akitoscorpio]

Re: Repercussions of mass-producing comic book technology

 

To quite a certain CG super hero movie

 

where the main villain stated

 

"I'll sell my inventions so everyone can be superheroes! Everyone can be super! And when everyone's super, [laughs maniacally] no-one will be.".... Not exactly the most evil thing he could do....

[Lucius]

Re: Repercussions of mass-producing comic book technology

 

6 Studying for the Turing Test: +4 with Acting, Persuasion, Conversation, Charm, Read Master, Read Audience, and Getting to know you (16 Active Points); Limited Power Only to simulate consciousness, free will, and emotion (-1 1/2)

 

 

2 Am I....real?: Mental Illusions 1d6, Attack Versus Alternate Defense (Telepathy; All Or Nothing; Mental Defense is no defense....but a Telepath will not be fooled; +0), Side Effects (Side Effect always occurs whenever the character does some specific act; Upon reaching a cumulative total of 10, and again at 20, the fembot will engage in at least one conflict or quarrel with Master. Such conflicts will continue to recur on a more or less random basis thereafter.; +0), Area Of Effect (8m Radius; +1/2), Invisible Power Effects (Fully Invisible; Additional Group Any Group, Additional Group Hearing Group; +1), Cumulative (96 points; +1 1/2) (20 Active Points); 1 Charge (-2), Limited Power Only to convine Master that the fembot's behavior reflects conscious, self-directed agency (-1 1/2), Extra Time (20 Minutes, Only to Activate, Must interact, or at least mutually observe each other, 20 minutes; -1 1/4), Limited Class Of Minds [single species/type of mind] (One only: Master; -1), Eye Contact Required (-1/2), Requires A Roll (Read Master Skill roll; -1/2), No Range (-1/2)

Note: This represents a fembot's ability to, by closely observing and analyzing both gross and subliminal cues in the responses of the Master to the fembot's behavior, to modify that behavior - down to such things as blushes, glances, and tiny changes in voice pitch - in order to build a slow growing conviction that the fembot has in fact achieved sentience and is expressing its own emotions, desires, and personality.

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary Enterprises

[Steve]

Re: Repercussions of mass-producing comic book technology

 

The original three examples are not the only tech items in the queue to be released to mass consumption by my NPC supergenius, but they were the first ideas I had. They are meant to represent technological leaps that I felt to be decades ahead of their time if suddenly released in the present day real world without the prior steps to their development taking place. The technologies are able to be reproduced and reverse engineered, and that's fine with this NPC. He has more toys to release.

 

Some other possible advancements waiting in the queue are...

 

1) Fusion Energy: The almost limitless power supply of the future. The smallest unit to be sold would be about the size of a V-8 engine and would probably be able to power a small town. This one would be offered a little differently than other items. The complete plans and parts list would be made available on the internet for free, but ready to run units would be available for sale as well.

 

2) Flying cars: Powered by a fusion generator, with lift and propulsion provided by an advanced VTOL design, these flying cars appear much like those seen in Blade Runner, able to rise to a flight ceiling of 10,000 feet.

 

3) Tissue regeneration enzymes: Applied by means of a bandage or sprayed on an injury in a thin coat, they are able to heal soft tissue damage at the rate of one Body per six hours with no detectable side effects. Mainly designed for healing burn damage.

[Steve]

Re: Repercussions of mass-producing comic book technology

 

Lucius raises a good point on how realistic the androids would seem, and I'd rep him if I could. Because the NPC releasing these marvels has issues with creating a "slave race" to mankind, the androids are purposely not sentient. They fake it really well though. They are able to learn and react to their owner and create a highly realistic illusion of sentience.

 

If they were offered only as companions/personal assistants and maybe as tireless caretakers for the elderly, would that be a better way to go? I suppose they could also be used for dangerous non-combat occupations like mining or firefighting.

[sinanju]

Re: Repercussions of mass-producing comic book technology

 

I suspect that androids with "a highly realistic illusion of sentience" would cause almost as many problems for the creator as truly self-aware AIs. While most people may understand on an intellectual level that "it's not really self-aware, it's just a really good program"...on an emotional level, there's very little difference. We know that our fellow humans are self-aware because we can experience that self-awareness from the inside. How do you prove that a robot that seems to be self-aware to most tests really isn't?

 

I suspect that androids would cause less political strife if their robotic origin were more obvious in their behavior. Either a more "robotic" presentation (a limited range of responses with little depth) OR a very human-like set of responses in a very limited sphere. So an android would be quite flexible within its designed area of operations (as a servant, firefighter, caretaker, whatever), but give the equivalent of "that does not compute" or "Error 404" File Not Found" when you stray outside that realm. Doctor Roboto might be calm, kindly, and knowledgeable as a physician, but if you ask him about politics or finance or out on a date, his response will make it clear that he's just an android.

 

You'll avoid a lot of grief in the long run if you do it that way.

[phoenix240]

Re: Repercussions of mass-producing comic book technology

 

Another angle that might be interesting if you want to go this way is what if one of these androids "wakes up" or someone tinkers with one and it acheives true sapience. Since they're so good at faking it. How would it prove it? Or to take in the direction of movie AI: is there really a difference?

[megaplayboy]

Re: Repercussions of mass-producing comic book technology

 

More problematic than an android with a semblance of sapience is their biological equivalent--a clone/replicant/drone, 99% genetically similar to a human being but rendered sterile, speed-grown to adulthood, with certain portions of their brains genetically or physically modified to "edit out" the capacity for free will(insert handwaving explanation for what that actually means here), and then "programmed" via a Matrix-like "life" to perform their designed functions.

At any rate, if droids and drones are expensive and of limited capability, it shouldn't affect society very much--there might be a few rich folks who keep them as domestic servants or bodyguards, and a few companies that employ them as receptionists or lab rats. If they are more affordable(i.e., a member of the upper middle class could afford one, a member of the middle class could "rent" one for a week, etc.), and more capable(capable of performing more than half the labor performed by humans), then they will have a dramatic impact on society. While it's true they could supplant human labor and cause mass unemployment, I suspect the social tolerance for such a thing would be pretty low. More likely you'd see laws that required companies employing X number of droids/drones to also hire 1 or 2 human workers per droid/drone employed. You'd also see a reduction in the human work week from 40 hours to 35,30,25, maybe even 20 hours a week. People would have more free time and might spend it on self-improvement, education, recreation, hobbies, etc. I think if you're working alongside "artificial labor", it would probably be more reassuring if they actually looked a bit like you. If they looked like robots, then it might be more alienating, and it might make the workers feel like they were being regarded as soulless machines as well. Basically, though, droids and drones are just kewler than robots. Plus as a campaign element, it is more likely to raise disturbing questions about the use of tech to create a "slave class" in society.

Any kind of cheap abundant energy tech would have a dramatic impact on a society. If you have abundant, cheap energy + abundant, cheap food and water + cheap and fast transportation anywhere in the world, + cheap artificial labor supplementing human labor, you wind up with something that, to those of us in the real world, begins a resemble a kind of utopia. You can work anywhere, live anywhere, enjoy an upper middle class lifestyle even if you're a food service worker working 20 hours a week, and even save up to own a domestic servant/sexbot.

If you really want things to go berserk, have the solar system be home to a couple stable wormholes to another galaxy and/or a large interstellar civilization. Build stargates to further widen and stabilize them, and then charge a toll to all trade traffic passing through these economical shortcuts. Being the toll plaza for an interstellar/intergalactic trade superhighway would, depending on the density and affluence of the civilizations engaging in its use, generate unimaginably vast sums of wealth for the toll collectors. Of course, that itself raises a whole host of issues--who would "own" the toll gates, and how would the proceeds be disbursed, and how interested would more aggressive civilizations be in taking over the "administration" of the gates?--which would be interesting.

A uniform made out of "unstable molecules" which could be reconfigured into almost any outfit would make the patent owners very rich indeed. I have no idea what would happen to the fashion industry though. And, of course, your teenage daughter might exit the house in a perfectly demure dress and "shift" over to video vixen getup the minute she's outside the club you told her not to go to.

[Steve]

Re: Repercussions of mass-producing comic book technology

 

There are a couple of ways I think I could go with almost sentient androids that could be applied to the scenario.

 

Starting with Lucius' "illusion of sentience" example, the computer mind of the android is able to respond and interact with their owner over time, building a custom database that can only maintain that illusion with someone they have detailed datalogs of. New people introduced to the android would initially be able to tell its not truly sentient. The system would start a new datafile for that new person. And the longer they interact with that person, the illusion would start taking effect with them too. Old files of people they no longer interact with would be purged over time.

 

Another poster also suggested limiting their area of expertise, so a person could buy one for a bed companion and snuggle buddy, or a caretaker for a senior citizen, but they wouldn't act convincingly outside of those limited roles.

 

One area that might be heavily affected by the sudden existence of androids would be entertainment. Imagine an actor or singer that could be programmed for a role and repeat that performance an infinite number of times in exactly the same way, never missing a beat or hitting their mark on stage. They can fake emoting for a role just like a human actor could. And they would remain the same in appearance for decades.

[Steve]

Re: Repercussions of mass-producing comic book technology

 

Another angle that might be interesting if you want to go this way is what if one of these androids "wakes up" or someone tinkers with one and it acheives true sapience. Since they're so good at faking it. How would it prove it? Or to take in the direction of movie AI: is there really a difference?

 

Another danger is the existence of Mechanon. The players in Icons have already met the Mark I version.

 

Something like Westworld taking place all over the planet is a scary scenario.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Repercussions of mass-producing comic book technology

 

Imagine a teleportation pad with a 5 minute "cooldown/warmup" period, a maximum range of 1 km only, and a maximum mass capacity of 1000kg. Not potent enough to drive the shipping industry out of business, but you could "port" from one pad to another, then step over to another, pre-started pad to jump to the next pad 1 km away. You could travel across a city in less than half the time it might take by bus, car or train. If the pad had a 1 minute resting period, a max range of 10km, and a max mass of 10 tons, then use for local shipping would make a lot of sense. Catastrophic failure rate would have to be extremely low, though(think "I just rolled 2(or 3) 18s in a row").

Imagine an android or drone "personal shopper" available for a fee at a store--you login online, move the shopper around the store to look at merchandise(perhaps even try on shoes and outfits, if the droid could be customized or within your size range), pick it up, pay for it using your electronic info, then travel to your home to deliver it to you.

[Clonus]

Re: Repercussions of mass-producing comic book technology

 

 

1) Fusion Energy: The almost limitless power supply of the future. The smallest unit to be sold would be about the size of a V-8 engine and would probably be able to power a small town. This one would be offered a little differently than other items. The complete plans and parts list would be made available on the internet for free, but ready to run units would be available for sale as well.

 

Produces an economic boom and clears up smog problems pretty much everywhere.

 

 

 

2) Flying cars: Powered by a fusion generator, with lift and propulsion provided by an advanced VTOL design, these flying cars appear much like those seen in Blade Runner, able to rise to a flight ceiling of 10,000 feet.

 

_Must_ be equipped with a reliable autopilot that can't be easily switched to manual control except for specially licensed models for qualified pilots.

 

 

3) Tissue regeneration enzymes: Applied by means of a bandage or sprayed on an injury in a thin coat, they are able to heal soft tissue damage at the rate of one Body per six hours with no detectable side effects. Mainly designed for healing burn damage.

 

A nice thing to have, but the effects will of course be invisible to casual observers.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Repercussions of mass-producing comic book technology

 

N-Ray vision and hearing plus Eidetic Memory, Clairsentience and Transmit/Receive = extensive litigation(and TMZ making a ton of money before the injunctions hit the fan).