Afterlife based upon world geography

[Manic Typist]

Just an idle thought I had before going out the door:

 

Imagine that, when someone dies, the afterlife they pass on to is not necessarily the one promised by their religion, but rather based upon the predominant religion of the area they died in. So, an Arab dying amidst Vikings would encounter Odin and the like.

 

This offers adventure potential, depending on whether movement can occur between afterlife "kingdoms." You might have to trek a long (spiritual) distance to arrive at your preferred paradise, and pass through purgatories (areas of neutrality or even chaos created by areas that lack a clearly dominant religion, or lack a clear or traditional conception of the afterlife), and you might even has to pass through different versions of hell perhaps?

 

If movement is "known" to be impossible, then I suppose foreign military excursions would be rarer/most costly, depending upon the belief system, and would have a greater emphasis on conversion as well.

[McCoy]

Re: Afterlife based upon world geography

 

Some of my relatives seem to have a similar belief, that "come the resurrection" people will get new bodies where they are buried, and they insist on being buried near their loved ones and are very opposed to loved ones being buried in "foreign soil."

 

Never understood this. Let's say they are right, most of the family is buried in one place, and one member is thousands of miles away. Let us further stipulate he has to walk all the way to the family reunion. How long does he have to do this? *checking calculations* Um, I'm getting an infinity symbol on my calculator, that means, FOR EVER! So what's the problem? You were right and have the eternal Paradise you were promised, have a little patience!

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Afterlife based upon world geography

 

Makes as much sense as any other theory about the afterlife.

 

Reminds me a bit of the basic cosmology in the WOD Werewolf and Wraith games; with the land of the dead kind of being an overlapping dimension or some such.

[Badger]

Re: Afterlife based upon world geography

 

Some of my relatives seem to have a similar belief, that "come the resurrection" people will get new bodies where they are buried, and they insist on being buried near their loved ones and are very opposed to loved ones being buried in "foreign soil."

 

Never understood this. Let's say they are right, most of the family is buried in one place, and one member is thousands of miles away. Let us further stipulate he has to walk all the way to the family reunion. How long does he have to do this? *checking calculations* Um, I'm getting an infinity symbol on my calculator, that means, FOR EVER! So what's the problem? You were right and have the eternal Paradise you were promised, have a little patience!

 

I never got why my mother is so opposed to cremation. For myself, I dont care, feed me to wild dogs, they'll get some use out of me.

[McCoy]

Re: Afterlife based upon world geography

 

I never got why my mother is so opposed to cremation. For myself' date=' I dont care, feed me to wild dogs, they'll get some use out of me.[/quote']

I don't understand it either. A few years ago, my mother was doing her "pre-need" planning, and very generously bought "a round of cremations for the house," as my sister put it. She got a package deal on her own, mine and my sister's, and my foster sons'. A very generous gift. My life partner politely declined.

 

I understand that he's a Christian, and believes in the Resurrection of the Flesh, but the man acts like it would be rude to ask the Lord to do a single bit more work than He has to in preparing his Glorious Body. You would think he's an Egyptian, the man wants to be mummified!

 

Not a belief that I share, or for that matter fully understand, but when his time comes, I will make sure he gets the very best embalming available.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Afterlife based upon world geography

 

Ok, well, still, hopefully someone one day finds this thread useful for continued adventures even after PC death or mayhaps a TPK.

 

Any thoughts on what this sort of mashed up afterlife would be like? Interesting struggles between borders? Analyzing what "real world" circumstances affect the afterlife (i.e. perhaps a temple manifests itself as a castle or some sort of source of power, for example?)?

[McCoy]

Re: Afterlife based upon world geography

 

Any thoughts on what this sort of mashed up afterlife would be like? Interesting struggles between borders? Analyzing what "real world" circumstances affect the afterlife (i.e. perhaps a temple manifests itself as a castle or some sort of source of power' date=' for example?)?[/quote']

What's the afterlfe like? Can the characters die again, or the dead not able to harm each other, or if they slice each other up painfully everyone regenerates at sunset?

 

Can they influence what happens in the world of the living? Can they observe the world of the living, or do they get news only from the newly dead and the slowly shifting borders? What happens when a religion no longer has living adherents?

 

What about material possessions, "stuff?" Is everyone naked, or wearing the clothes they died/were buried in? Grave goods/sacrifices only, or are there natural resources in the afterlfe? Do mines correspond to the location of their living world counterparts?

[MisterFurious]

Re: Afterlife based upon world geography

 

What happens to the gods, belief structures, etc of a region that's been conquered/settled by another people?

 

For example, pre-Christian Europe... are the Roman, Celt, Norse, etc gods still there fighting an Afterlife guerilla war against angels and saints?

 

Or a place like Istanbul... once pagan (of some kind, I'm not sure exactly), then Eastern Orthodox Christian (again, not sure exactly), now Muslim (?). You'll get an argument from various fundamentalists, but supposedly Christianity and Islam both spring from the same Abrahamic source and yet their "core" beliefs and practices are very different... how does that affect the Afterlife of an area?

 

Or even a place like modern day Ireland or America, which are nominally Christian, but the question being: what flavour of Christian? Between all the Catholics and Protestants and Lutherans and Born Agains and whatever else.... not to mention Jews, Wiccans, Atheists, etc etc etc... Who determines what the "dominant" religion of an area is, especially given how often such things change (historically speaking).

 

The same could hold true for any Fantasy or Sci-Fi setting as well, of course, just using real world examples to help it along.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Afterlife based upon world geography

 

All good questions. I'd add- what about reciprocity? If someone deemed to be an excellent person of one religion dies in the territory of another religion, especially one that was antiethical to their belief system, how are they treated by the powers that reside their? Are they judged according to that religion, or do powers engage in reciprocity whereby "Ok, I'll treat your best followers as if they were mine own, if you do the same to my guys if they die over in your area?"

 

Personally, I like the idea of broad "kingdoms," and you have to move to the specific place of power. So if you die in Norse land, you don't just show up in Valhalla. You have to go to it and gain admittance. However, your actions in life determine how creatures view you along the way....

 

 

For McCoy's questions, I'd go with "Yes they can hurt each other, and either oblivion/something really bad awaits those who die in the afterlife."

 

I'd use metaphorical interpretation in terms of matching up real world geography with the afterlife, like you see in the Dresden Files with the world of the Fae and how they reflect one another, loosely.

 

I'd say you have equipment that you view as essential to yourself, i.e. you manifest as your core identity views itself. If a certain, magical sword was a part of that, then that could very well manifest too.

 

 

And I like the idea of a guerrilla god resistance.....

[Ranxerox]

Re: Afterlife based upon world geography

 

What happens to the gods, belief structures, etc of a region that's been conquered/settled by another people?

 

For example, pre-Christian Europe... are the Roman, Celt, Norse, etc gods still there fighting an Afterlife guerilla war against angels and saints?

 

Or a place like Istanbul... once pagan (of some kind, I'm not sure exactly), then Eastern Orthodox Christian (again, not sure exactly), now Muslim (?). You'll get an argument from various fundamentalists, but supposedly Christianity and Islam both spring from the same Abrahamic source and yet their "core" beliefs and practices are very different... how does that affect the Afterlife of an area?

 

Or even a place like modern day Ireland or America, which are nominally Christian, but the question being: what flavour of Christian? Between all the Catholics and Protestants and Lutherans and Born Agains and whatever else.... not to mention Jews, Wiccans, Atheists, etc etc etc... Who determines what the "dominant" religion of an area is, especially given how often such things change (historically speaking).

 

The same could hold true for any Fantasy or Sci-Fi setting as well, of course, just using real world examples to help it along.

 

My suggestion for this is that you let death be the beach of an endless but constantly receding ocean that represents the living world. So if you want stay close to the living world, you can do so but you have to keep moving because it is always receding away from. On the other hand, if you want to go visit your great-great-great-great-grandfather that is possible too but you have to travel inland to do that. As you travel inland you also travel through the kingdoms of those that occupied the land of the place of your death in before you came.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Afterlife based upon world geography

 

....that's a really nifty idea. Repped if I can.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Afterlife based upon world geography

 

Slight necro.

 

 

I think there should be an tangible benefit for funeral/burial rites being performed, i.e. they actually affect the dead in the afterlife. How long though.... hm, perhaps you don't show up in the Afterlife until you Pass, which means when your spirit is satisfied/laid to rest/banished there.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Afterlife based upon world geography

 

There are no "grave goods" until there's a grave. And the grave goods are put there specifically for use in the afterworld. Maybe it's the funeral rites that allow the goods (or a spiritual facsimile) to cross over to the afterlife. Although this brings up the question of what happens to the spiritual goods when the grave is robbed. If they disappear from the afterworld, it would explain why steps are taken to prevent theft, and so many ghosts come after their stolen stuff. Given the tendencies of graves to be robbed, though, that would make the afterworld a pretty resource poor place.

[薔薇語]

Re: Afterlife based upon world geography

 

So, the relative size and strength of the various afterlife communities is both based on the residents in the real world and of the conflicts between the afterlife kingdoms? This seems contradictory to a fault. Why? Well, take for example a small group of animists living in a country that is otherwise surrounded by Christians. We would say that if you died in the Animist community, you'd go to their kingdom (or what have you). AND the various kingdoms can fight each other, too. Doesn't this mean that the Christian Kingdoms could take over the small Animist Kingdom? And how do we interpret relative strength? There are lots of Christians in the US now, but how does the collective of their faith actually affect the after world kingdom? Do you they have more access to resources. Are they more likely to be physically stronger based on faith levels? And what of the various Gods of each group. How do they come into existence? How can gods of contrary belief exist when their believers come to see that both exist? I.e., if a Christian dies and come to realize that the Muslim Allah also exists, doesn't that diminish his faith in the Omni-Christian-God?

 

Moving on from that, I think the power plays of the power plays of the various religions is a good aspect to have. What happens to a Christian soul on Christian ground if the Christian kingdom in the afterworld has been destroyed / taken over by a neighbor? What if the native US Indian faiths never lost the battles with the Christian faiths in the afterworld and thus, any Christian who died in the US would still go to a native American afterlife?

 

Anyway, this is a very interesting idea.

 

La Rose.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Afterlife based upon world geography

 

I would suggest that the spiritual world is determined by the "real" world (the fictionally real world of your setting). That is, the spiritual kingdoms cannot overtake one another.... but they can send agents/emissaries and interact with one another. So, if you REALLY angered another faith in life... well, they might send a spiritual extraction team after you to bring you back to their land to face their justice, for instance. They might also seek to try to influence the real world to sustain benefits in the spiritual world, i.e. ensure that their followers are better aided so that the faith spreads and the borders shift, etc.

 

Most of this would probably have to be left vague, subjective, malleable based upon shifting interpretations. Could be part of the appeal. But I have a slight temptation to try to codify most it...

 

What really confounds me is continuity through time. How long are grave goods (which provide a GREAT justification for ghosts- "Hey! I was USING THAT! GIVE IT BACK!" by reason of motivation and ritualized connection) associated with deceased? I'd say the spiritual world probably has its own kind of resources so that everything isn't dependent on grave goods.... maybe after a certain point the physical items are no longer as relevant, maybe when the deceased ceases to care about the physical world and is purely focused upon the spiritual world and its conflicts? So they are a crutch that is useful for a while?

[薔薇語]

Re: Afterlife based upon world geography

 

...they might send a spiritual extraction team after you to bring you back to their land to face their justice' date=' for instance.[/quote']

 

Well, this begs the question. Can the Christian afterlife over the US extract the native Americans afterlife to extinction?

 

La Rose.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Afterlife based upon world geography

 

If they can get their angels through the Native American defenses and drag your soul back?

 

Otherwise, I don't follow the question.

[薔薇語]

Re: Afterlife based upon world geography

 

If they can get their angels through the Native American defenses and drag your soul back?

 

Otherwise, I don't follow the question.

 

Can the Catholic angels put into jail or other such confinement the Protestant Angels?

 

Maybe they can't kill eacher or claim the land that another group gets by magical means, but why not imprison all other beleiver's gods/etc.

 

La Rose.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Afterlife based upon world geography

 

I'd suggest that different denominations of Christianity sort of blend together unless you want a campaign that deals with that level of... interdepartamental rivalry and detail. But maybe your players would enjoy the nuances of the various sects!'

 

 

As for the second part, well, they're certainly welcome to try, but since I'm talking Fantasy Hero and no real world religions with even the possibility of a truly all powerful being and yadda yadda.... I'd go with the classic "Because the other guys will do it right back to them. How do you think the last Godwar got started?" Probably denizens of various "heavens" are less powerful outside of their kingdom, and even specifically weaker in the area of a hostile "nation." Classic magic/wizard/spiritualism trope.

[薔薇語]

Re: Afterlife based upon world geography

 

I guess that seems like a good idea.

 

But I just thought of another one, how would one define "hostile" religions? Surely mono-theistic religions are hostile to all others. And of course there is the issue of the Christian, Islamic, and Jewish God all being the same yet not the same. Would there be a God of the Old Testament and a God of both Old and New all at once?

 

And last little bit, what of religions that don't promote their being an "afterlife"? Shinto comes to mind quite readily in this regard.

 

La Rose.

[Savinien]

Re: Afterlife based upon world geography

 

Don't use the Shinto religion in your Fantasy game. Problem solved!

[薔薇語]

Re: Afterlife based upon world geography

 

Don't use the Shinto religion in your Fantasy game. Problem solved!

 

hahaha. Just hope that none of your PCs are Japanese / wanna bes, and that none of them die in Japan. Sounds like a plan ^^

 

La Rose.

[Clonus]

Re: Afterlife based upon world geography

 

I guess that seems like a good idea.

 

But I just thought of another one, how would one define "hostile" religions? Surely mono-theistic religions are hostile to all others.

 

 

In a fantasy setting henotheism is more likely than monotheism since the existence of multiple gods is fairly easily determined.

 

 

 

And of course there is the issue of the Christian, Islamic, and Jewish God all being the same yet not the same. Would there be a God of the Old Testament and a God of both Old and New all at once?

 

Unlikely since all those faiths hold that the other guys are in fact following the same god and just have some wrong ideas about it.

 

 

And last little bit, what of religions that don't promote their being an "afterlife"? Shinto comes to mind quite readily in this regard.

 

La Rose.

 

While Shinto isn't terribly interested in the afterlife (largely because Buddhism has camped out that turf), that doesn't mean there isn't a traditional Japanese afterlife. It's kind of like the Greek one. But these days, they've gone the reincarnation route which would make that just a way station.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Afterlife based upon world geography

 

Also as I said, I'd suggest that areas with strong or significant/relevant afterlifes are "neutral." So, sort of generic terrain that vaguely reflects the culture of the land that it "overlays."

 

Remember, this is supposed to be flexible, almost poetic. Things are slippery, shifting.

[csyphrett]

Re: Afterlife based upon world geography

 

I vote for reincarnation for a ghost if he can make it back to his sacred ground.

 

That probably didn't come out right.

 

Let me try again.

 

If you are a follower of a religion that allows for reincarnation, like Shinto, but you die in say an Animism country like parts of the Congo, I vote to allow your ghost to reincarnate if he can reach his home country, or any significant way station from where he died.

CES