Speed for Limited Purposes - wrapping my head around it

[Duane From RI]

I like the concept of Speed for limited uses. It could encourage aborts and/or taking recoveries which are both going to very important in the campaign I am designing.

However, how does the community adjudicate mixing Limited Use Speed?

Take for instance a character with 4 SPD, 1 SPD for taking recoveries, 2 SPD for defensive actions only and 1 SPD just for attacking. Decent cost savings vis-a-vis 8 SPD but whats the limitation?

The character could take 5 recoveries out of eight, could put together 5 attacks out of eight or could dump to block or dodge 6 times out of eight. I can see some reason for cost savings but since Taking Recovery Only is a -1 and Defense Only is a -3/4 we are talking about significant cost savings.

What does the community think? I need some fresh takes on this because I have looked at it from numerous angles and have ended up conflicted.

[sinanju]

Re: Speed for Limited Purposes - wrapping my head around it

 

My immediate response is that it's way too complicated. There's going to be a lot of time lost keeping track of which action is which. If I were running a game, I'd either disallow SPD for limited purposes or put a stricter limit on it--not more than one, MAYBE two extra points of speed. More probably I'd just disallow it.

[Tasha]

Re: Speed for Limited Purposes - wrapping my head around it

 

Anything that changes a character's speed is a royal PITA to deal with as a GM. I guess you could assume that all of that extra speed gets added to the base for dealing with the spd chart during combat. Then you have to trust that the Players are honest in taking their extra time.

 

It just looks like you are trying to get around the penalties of taking a Recovery and aborts. It's kind of meta gamey in construction and IMHO kind of Wonky for a PC to buy. If you have PC's that don't abort and take recoveries in your combats then you aren't making your combats challenging enough.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Speed for Limited Purposes - wrapping my head around it

 

Make then SPD 6?

 

That's 20 point saved right there, and they can still do all that stuff

 

Not what you mean, I know...

 

Well you could build the recovery as increased REC.

 

You could build the attack as a once a turn autofire and you could build the defensive actions as increased DCV useable twice a turn and the recovery action as increased REC.

 

OK, also not what you mean...

 

Right. 4 SPD (40 points) +4 SPD (limited options) -1/4 (32 points). 72 points. Hows that?

 

Or 4 SPD (40 points) +1 SPD only to take recoveries -1 (5 points), +2 SPD for defence only -1/4 (16 points) and +1 SPD only to attack -0 (10 points: come on you have 8 phases - you are going to attack at least once a turn in combat, so no limitation!). 71 points (I might make the limitation for defence only -1/2, especially if quite high speeds are common in the campaign).

 

Overall you would not save a lot with me as I assume that the character will be played to its strengths and therefore the actual limitation in play may be relatively slight. THEORETICALLY Defence only and Recovery only should be higher as you probably attack and move more than anything else in combat, so they should probably be -1 at least BUT I imagine the character getting plenty of use out of his defensive actions.

 

Another problem is this: which phase is for what? Can you use your limited phases at any time (useful) or only on specific segments (a lot less useful).

 

Mind you it will turn into an administrative nightmare, and my advice is 'don't do it!'.

[Arc Esu]

Re: Speed for Limited Purposes - wrapping my head around it

 

There are some examples of limited Speed in the Champions Villains write-ups, but to my knowledge none of them take more than one type of limited Speed, although the limitation on the Speed can be broad (for example, Menton has extra Speed only to use Mental Powers, which for him is barely a Limitation). And of course a number of battlesuits are build with extra Speed with OIF, although that is unlikely to change in the middle of combat. Also, generally the character's base Speed and extra Speed are bought so that the Phases work out nicely. For example, if you go from 3 Speed to 6 Speed, you go from going on 4, 8, 12 to going on 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, so you basically get an extra Phase before each of your normal Phases, which is much easier to adjudicate than going from, say, Speed 3 to Speed 5.

 

So as GM, I would allow a player to buy limited Speed, but only once, and only if the Phase numbers work out cleanly so there are no delays in figuring out who's going when in combat.

[Christopher]

Re: Speed for Limited Purposes - wrapping my head around it

 

And of course a number of battlesuits are build with extra Speed with OIF' date=' although that is unlikely to change in the middle of combat.[/quote']

I would not say that. After all there are the rules for damaging a focus

 

Also' date=' generally the character's base Speed and extra Speed are bought so that the Phases work out nicely. For example, if you go from 3 Speed to 6 Speed, you go from going on 4, 8, 12 to going on 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, so you basically get an extra Phase before each of your normal Phases, which is much easier to adjudicate than going from, say, Speed 3 to Speed 5.[/quote']

3 5 8 10 12

The Bolds one are the normal, the other the limited phases.

 

Example in the OP gives a SPD of 4/8:

2 3 5 6 8 9 11 12

Get's less tricky when you just compare 4 and 8:

2 3 5 6 8 9 11 12

Bold is again the unlimited SPD. Now you only need to distirbute the 4 phases between the 3 limited SPD's. The general rule about speed is: Lower SPD get's it's phases later.

So 2 and 5 would be availible for defensive actions. And you need to determine wich of the two left get's 8 and wich gets 11.

Or allow the player to distribute them however he likes once, write it down and be finished.

 

Generally I think taking recovery in the middle of a fight is a bad idea. It get's acceptable when you have some way to protect you (like cover, a barrier or desolidification that sustains itself), but otherwise you have to drop your guard so much it's simply the last thing you should do in a fight.

[gojira]

Re: Speed for Limited Purposes - wrapping my head around it

 

It just looks like you are trying to get around the penalties of taking a Recovery and aborts. It's kind of meta gamey in construction and IMHO kind of Wonky for a PC to buy. If you have PC's that don't abort and take recoveries in your combats then you aren't making your combats challenging enough.

 

 

For certain concepts though it works well. For example, +3 Speed, Only In Hero ID. The character is a "normal" who only has super powers when he "transforms" into his hero identity. While potentially wonky rules-wise, it's also so well represented in the source material I'd allow it and even give it a lot of latitude how it works in play.

 

Obvious meta gaming, or even suspected meta gaming, gets stepped on hard.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Speed for Limited Purposes - wrapping my head around it

 

Well you could build the recovery as increased REC.

 

Another option would be STUN and END Healing with a reduced re-use down to once per turn, on a Trigger that resets every PS 12. While clearly different (and doubtless more expensive) than the OP's suggestion, it can also be used any time in the turn without shutting off all non-persistent powers and dropping to 0 DCV, and isn't spoiled if you get hit before your next phase. If you are so inclined, you could simulate all of these with Limitations, which should reduce the cost quite a bit.

 

You could build the attack as a once a turn autofire

 

Or a Triggered attack (or a naked Trigger advantage which could apply to any of your attacks) which resets each PS 12.

 

you could build the defensive actions as increased DCV useable twice a turn

 

Doesn't allow for Blocks, Dive for Cover, etc. though.

 

OK' date=' also not what you mean...[/quote']

 

No, but maybe more practical approaches to accomplishing the same objective, so worth exploring.

 

Right. 4 SPD (40 points) +4 SPD (limited options) -1/4 (32 points). 72 points. Hows that?

 

This is probably a reasonable approach. At that level, I'd expect to be able to pick which phases use which actions each turn, but I can still only attack 5 times, defend no more than 6 times and recover 5 times at most in any given turn.

 

Or 4 SPD (40 points) +1 SPD only to take recoveries -1 (5 points)' date=' +2 SPD for defence only -1/4 (16 points) and +1 SPD only to attack -0 (10 points: come on you have 8 phases - you are going to attack at least once a turn in combat, so no limitation!). 71 points (I might make the limitation for defence only -1/2, especially if quite high speeds are common in the campaign).[/quote']

 

This would be the more classic "limited Speed". I'd require the phases be set (ie the 4 speed segments can be used for anything and the other four must be specifically defined). Given that, I'd likely give a higher limitation. Only to recover is extremely limiting, only to attack somewhat so (yeah, you'll attack in many phases, but you can't use the other half phase for anything, so no moving and attacking, no half phase to stand up, then attack, etc.) and the defense phases limited similar to the attack phases. These would be pretty limiting if the phases when you can attack, defend or recover are set in stone, less so if you can assign them on the fly (ie change which extra phase gets an attack every turn). I would also rule that, if you Abort, you lose the next standard or defense only phase and, if there's a "recover" or "attack" only phase before then, you lose that phase as well (it could not be used for a defensive action, so it can't be the phase lost to abort).

 

Mind you it will turn into an administrative nightmare' date=' and my advice is 'don't do it!'.[/quote']

 

This seems to me to be the best advice possible. A character who can only defend on Ph 2, act normally on ph 3, only attack on ph 5, act normally on ph 6, only recover on ph 8, act normally on ph 9, only defend on ph 11 and act normally on ph 12 is going to be a pain to play.

 

There are some examples of limited Speed in the Champions Villains write-ups' date=' but to my knowledge none of them take more than one type of limited Speed, although the limitation on the Speed can be broad (for example, Menton has extra Speed only to use Mental Powers, which for him is barely a Limitation). And of course a number of battlesuits are build with extra Speed with OIF, although that is unlikely to change in the middle of combat. Also, generally the character's base Speed and extra Speed are bought so that the Phases work out nicely. For example, if you go from 3 Speed to 6 Speed, you go from going on 4, 8, 12 to going on 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, so you basically get an extra Phase before each of your normal Phases, which is much easier to adjudicate than going from, say, Speed 3 to Speed 5.[/quote']

 

I'd require the extra phases be predefined, much as Sean suggests, with the end result being that you never get a normal phase sooner than you would have with the unlimited SPD only.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Speed for Limited Purposes - wrapping my head around it

 

For certain concepts though it works well. For example' date=' +3 Speed, Only In Hero ID. The character is a "normal" who only has super powers when he "transforms" into his hero identity. While potentially wonky rules-wise, it's also so well represented in the source material I'd allow it and even give it a lot of latitude how it works in play.[/quote']

 

I don't find "sometimes I have it, sometimes I don't" SPD nearly as problematic. In fact, I like buying up SPD gradually starting at +1 SPD, Requires 8- roll. At PS12, roll. If it activates, you get +1 SPD next turn. If not, you don't. You may act on different phases each turn, but there's no uncertainty over what you can do on any given phase.

[Christopher]

Re: Speed for Limited Purposes - wrapping my head around it

 

Or a Triggered attack (or a naked Trigger advantage which could apply to any of your attacks) which resets each PS 12.

Actually realtively easy:

Trigger ("hitting segment X, own dex"[+1/4]; Activates as No-Time Action[+1/4]; Automatically Rests[+1/2]; Requires a Turn or more to reset[-1/2]; Total: +1/2)

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Speed for Limited Purposes - wrapping my head around it

 

The hardest part of mixing speed is determining where the extra phases can occur; it sounds simple but isn't once you get to playing. Basically, if your base speed is 4, then you get your normal actions on phases 3,6,9,12. You could not use any of your actions from Limited Extra Speed on those phases; you can't have 2 phases in a single segment. If you then took an extra action of phase 5, you would immediately get another action on phase 6; which can be problematic. If you technically "change speed mid turn" then you end up losing actions waiting for the next phase where both your original and modified SPD would both get an action (if you add +1 SPD on phase 3, from SPD 4 to SPD 5, then you would lose the phase 5 and 6 phases then pick up and get actions on phases 8, 10, and 12.)

 

As many have stated, there may be better ways to simulate some of what you are attempting to do with extra SPD; higher END or Recovery or an AID for the extra recovery action, higher DCV or maybe Deflection on a Trigger for the extra aborts, etc.

 

The "+x SPD (Only for Abort actions)" is probably the simplest one to adjudicate; no need to adjust SPD, it would just let them take those aborts on any phase they don't normally have an action without actually losing their next phase granted by their base SPD score.

[Duane From RI]

Re: Speed for Limited Purposes - wrapping my head around it

 

Thank you everyone! There a appears to be unanimity that mixing Limited Duty Speeds would be a book keeping - rules lawyering nightmare.

One poster noted that the villain books have some examples of Limited Duty Speed. I have all three in PDF form so will survey those.

 

My gut instinct was to allow only one type of Limited Duty Speed per turn. If the character had more than one type - they could chose and different "Tactical Plan" every twelve seconds. That concept would fit in fine with the milieu I'm creating, keep book-keeping more simple and still allow flexibility.

[Christopher]

Re: Speed for Limited Purposes - wrapping my head around it

 

My gut instinct was to allow only one type of Limited Duty Speed per turn. If the character had more than one type - they could chose and different "Tactical Plan" every twelve seconds. That concept would fit in fine with the milieu I'm creating' date=' keep book-keeping more simple and still allow flexibility.[/quote']

Would he be able to put them into a Multipower?

[Duane From RI]

Re: Speed for Limited Purposes - wrapping my head around it

 

Probably usable in a multipower, won't be too much savings unless the character keeps it to two or three tactics and tightens up the tactics. One thing I am doing is that multipower reserves will reflect a real cost limit, not a active cost limit. I'd have no problem with Limited Duty Speed in a normal multipower cause there would be no cost savings at all! A 30pt multipower reserve is a 3 SPD, you normally can't "pick the lowest limitation" and thus no cost savings at all.

Let's do an example exercise assuming the Multipower is a Real Cost reserve - not an Active Cost reserve.

Multipower Reserve 18

3 SPD Only to recover - fixed - cost = 1

3 SPD Only to Attack w/ palm blasters - fixed - cost = 2

3 SPD Only to Defend - fixed - cost = 2

So for 23 pts the character can get themselves extra speed, they have to pick one tactic and stick with it. Hmm...

Probably better off with 3 SPD, Variable Limitation (-1/4) for a cost of 24 and now they have infinite tactics to chose from one at a time.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Speed for Limited Purposes - wrapping my head around it

 

Probably usable in a multipower, won't be too much savings unless the character keeps it to two or three tactics and tightens up the tactics. One thing I am doing is that multipower reserves will reflect a real cost limit, not a active cost limit. I'd have no problem with Limited Duty Speed in a normal multipower cause there would be no cost savings at all! A 30pt multipower reserve is a 3 SPD, you normally can't "pick the lowest limitation" and thus no cost savings at all.

Let's do an example exercise assuming the Multipower is a Real Cost reserve - not an Active Cost reserve.

Multipower Reserve 18

3 SPD Only to recover - fixed - cost = 1

3 SPD Only to Attack w/ palm blasters - fixed - cost = 2

3 SPD Only to Defend - fixed - cost = 2

So for 23 pts the character can get themselves extra speed, they have to pick one tactic and stick with it. Hmm...

Probably better off with 3 SPD, Variable Limitation (-1/4) for a cost of 24 and now they have infinite tactics to chose from one at a time.

 

I could show you some old threads about real vs. active for MP reserves showing several reasons why the former can quickly become abusive.

 

Before I do that I would rather put forth a positive alternative to your dilemma. Like several others have suggested, do not allow limited SPD at all. In fact, go one step further and enforce that everyone have the same SPD (probably a value of 4) unless their character fits into the 'speedster' arch-type (then up to a SPD 6). Those lower real values allow everyone to purchase at least 1 Overall Level. Anyone who purchases at least 3 Overall Levels gets to use an often overlooked aspect of the rules. Any action that takes a certain amount of time to complete on the time chart can be moved down the chart for every 3 Levels. Say the GM rules that use of a particular skill will take 5 minutes. The character can choose to complete the use in 1 minute if they are willing to accept a -3 to the roll (offset by the levels). 2-4 Levels is also really good at offsetting multiple attack (or whatever it's called now in 6e) penalties. They are just a wonderful way to model 'speed' imo (I've used them to represent 'superspeed' for Superman, Flash, Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel/Shazam). If recovery is still desired then put the Levels in a Multipower with a Self Only Healing vs. Stun & Body with Trigger. Yes, GM approval required to put Levels in a framework but it's very workable (more so than limited SPD at least) with proper GM vetting of characters.