Superhero Team Members

[Cassandra]

My take on the teams in a Champions Multiverse (All heroes on the same Earth)

 

 

Justice League of America

 

Superman

Batman

Wonder Woman

Flash

Green Lantern

Aquaman

Martian Manhunter

Atom

Hawkgirl

Black Canary

Green Arrow

Zatanna

Mary Marvel

Vixen

 

 

Teen Titans

 

Robin

Wonder Girl

Kid Flash

Aqualad

Speedy

Supergirl

Captain Marvel Jr.

 

 

Justice Society of America

 

Captain Marvel

Dr. Fate

Stargirl

Hawkman

Power Girl

Huntress

Wildcat

 

 

The Avengers

 

Captain America

Thor

She Hulk

Ms. Marvel

Iron Man

Wasp

Tigra

Hawkeye

Scarlet Witch

Vision

Mockingbird

Black Widow

Black Panther

Quicksilver

Goliath

Spider-Woman

 

The Defenders

 

Dr. Strange

Hulk

Silver Surfer

Valkyrie

Sub-Mariner

Nighthawk

Hellcat

 

 

The X-Men

 

Cyclops

Marvel Girl

Beast

Iceman

Angel

Rogue

Colossus

Shadowcat

Storm

Wolverine

Dazzler

[Brother Chaos]

Re: Superhero Team Members

 

Large number of characters on teams. Probably too large to be effective. Especially the Avengers which works best at 7 or so.

[assault]

Re: Superhero Team Members

 

Team size is partly a function of the function of the team.

 

(The following comments all refer to "early" versions of these teams.)

 

Are they a school? (X-Men, New Mutants)

Are they a crimefighter's club? (JSA, JLA, Teen Titans, (initially) Avengers)

Are they a consciously designed crimefighting team? (Avengers a bit later)

Are they a "family"? (FF, Doom Patrol)

Are they a crimefighting team that has to maintain 24/7 coverage, potentially responding to multiple simultaneous crises? (Legion of Superheroes, JLA)

 

All of these face different imperatives, and have access to different resources.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Superhero Team Members

 

Large number of characters on teams. Probably too large to be effective. Especially the Avengers which works best at 7 or so.

 

Could be their entire history and not current rosters.

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: Superhero Team Members

 

Could be their entire history and not current rosters.

 

Exactly. Realistically, there's no reason that a superteam couldn't have hundreds of members, and a good reason to want one. The problem is that you can't write comics or play RPG campaigns in that setting, but there are other things that you might want do where small teams are a problem.

 

Consider a PS238-style setting. This requires enough adult superheroes to produce an entire student body! One way of doing this is to assume that every superparent in America (the world? the universe?) is sending their children to a single school.

 

Now, that works with a public/boarding school model. I only have to point to Hogwarts to notice both the advantages and the disadvantages. The advantage is that the kids can come from a range of backgrounds. The disadvantage is that Hogwarts is a boarding school, and you might want to work with a commuter-school style experience. The implication is that there are enough, connected, super-parents living in a major metropolitan area to produce at least a minimum student body.

 

How many is "enough?" I'd say that somewhere in the 100 to 200 range. That's at the high end of an Avengers or JLA roster, but it is the kind of team that Cassandra is putting together here. Note that you can fudge this if you put some more generations in. For example, even in the DC Comics Universe there are what, three, four Robins? And the basic reason for that is that Batman (and Robin) have been around since 1938. In "reality," the original Robin would have grandchildren attending our "PS238 High", alongside Batman's great-grandchildren. Kwai Chang Caine's descendants would be a small army in their own right! Presumably, not everyone in the intervening generations was superheroic material. In fact, you could hardly have a "legacy universe" like this without the reverse.

 

So to bring this back to a Marvel Universe, never mind shrinking the roster. I'm looking for Two-Gun Kid, Red Wolf, and the Whizzer. (Hee! His costume is yellow.)

[Cassandra]

Re: Superhero Team Members

 

First here is a great site with old comics available for online reading http://digitalcomicmuseum.com/

 

I think teams have member come and go over the years. Martian Manhunter was out of the JLA for ten years and replaced for some reason by Red Tornado. The Avengers and X-Men have gained and lost members over the years.

 

Justice League Unlimited is a good example on how a multi-member team would work. Task forces being sent out on specific missions.

 

The Ultimate Avengers animated movies are good for showing how some members might not get along.

[matthewcelis]

Re: Superhero Team Members

 

Why aren't any Marvel characters in the Justice League, or D.C. characters in the Avengers? To me it seems a little arbitrary and hard to believe (if they're all in the same world).

 

Here's my ideal superteam lineup from the 1940s:

 

Captain Marvel (Shazam!)

Captain America

Human Torch (1940s android)

Sub-Mariner

Flash (original)

Green Lantern (original)

Wonder Woman

Plastic Man

Phantom Lady

Cat-Man (from Holyoke Comics)

Batman

Hawkman (original)

 

(Never liked Superman's extraterrestrial origin or abilities so he doesn't exist.)

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: Superhero Team Members

 

So. How big a superteam do you need as the background for a "PS 238 High" campaign?*

 

The starting premise is that this is a typical setting. The school itself is large enough to be anonymous, and the setting implies an urban/suburban environment. (There's malls to hang out at, diverse retail for after school employment, a museum big enough for Egyptological exhibitions, a university with mad scientists...) So I'd peg it at 800 students.

 

Are they all super? Working backward, let's look at the size of the team this implies. Assuming complete endogamity for simplicity's sake,** ((members/2 (couples))*(2.1 children per couple)= next generation. For a four year school with an 800 student enrollment, we have a 200 student cohort, or 5000 total in a 25 year generation; the team has had to have had 2380 members. That's crazy.

 

It's also counterproductive for a "typical" setting. High school is about inclusion and exclusion. Making "the supers" one more clique amongst goths, jocks and nerds works better. Scaling the other way, I don't think that the annual "special" class can be less than 5 students. Working the math the same way gets a superteam of 119 members.

 

Also crazy? Not necessarily. In the Champions Universe, the team could have been operational in 1939--52; 1960--present without special pleading. That implies a turnover of 2 members a year, which is a bit high. I think that you can get there, but it takes including some pretty marginal figures from the traditional Avengers/Justice League lineup to get anywhere near this high. Sargon the Sorceror? Red Wolf?

 

But, on the other hand, consider matthewcells' "ideal" Justice League:

 

Captain Marvel (Shazam!)

Captain America

Human Torch (1940s android)

Sub-Mariner

Flash (original)

Green Lantern (original)

Wonder Woman

Plastic Man

Phantom Lady

Cat-Man (from Holyoke Comics)

Batman

Hawkman (original)

 

A number of these characters are already in the family way. At one point, there were six super-members of the Marvel Family, one normal one, and a talking tiger. (Otto? What the heck?) The Bat family is even more expansive. There's a Batman, four current and former Robins, one Batwoman, a Batgirl, a Huntress, with presumably another Batgirl due to make her appearance shortly. And if Huntress goes back to being an Earth-2 character, doesn't that imply an Earth-2 Batman (and Catwoman?)

 

Now take the world-spanning nature of the Justice League out of the picture. Our PS238 High is in a single urban school district. Stately Wayne Manor is uptown, the League of Avenging Justice's brownstone is downtown, and PS 238 High is somewhere along the subway line in between.*** Say that Batman starts operations in 1938, and dies in a confrontation with Superman in that 1984-like period of our history a generation or so ago.**** The four Robins are spaced out over 25 years or so, along with Batman's children by Talia and Selina.

 

So Robin (Dick Grayson) was born in 1928, retired as Robin in 1952 and got a girlfriend.***** His kids are boomers and probably grandparents in 2011, albeit not of children old enough to be in high school. Yet. Was Robin (DG) ever a member of the ALJ? Probably not. He was in their circle, went on missions with them, but was never really quite a member. Tell the truth, after actively superheroing through his entire youth, by the time he turned 30, he was ready to get out of the life and settle down, anyway. The Titans were his team.

 

Sure, the "real" Titans used to hang out in the basement of the ALJ mansion, not some cool Tower on an island. Some people would say that they were never a real superteam, just the ALJ's varsity. Dick doesn't care. He stopped enough would-be world conquerors, has enough scars. When he goes out to PS 238 High home games against Ravenswood, he's proud to be in the stands and watch his grandnephews and grandnieces play, and to know that they'll be out on the streets tonight, learning to be real superheroes for the next generation. Maybe, if his 83-year-old bones can stand it, he'll be there, a night or two, to give them the benefits of his experience. He's a part of that. He'll always be a part of that.******

 

And that's how you get to your 120 members. And quite the PTA meeting, too.

 

*Because it interests me. That's why.

**Yes, most superheroes in the League of Avenging Justice end up marrying their purehearted secretary, or the spunky girl reporter. After all, their fellow superheroes do trend same sex. Not that there's anything wrong with that. On the other hand, some members build/clone/are reincarnated as their successors. And then there are alien fosterchildren, kids from alternate universes, cousins rocketed through space from their doomed planets. I'm simplifying here, is what I'm saying.

Technically, Wayne Manor is four blocks from the nearest subway station, all uphill on one-way residential streets with single sidewalks fronting tall, blank estate walls. If you look out on your CCTV monitors in the morning and afternoon (and you do), you can see fit, middle-aged men in bespoke suits and Italian loafers walking to and from the train on the way to the surgery or the brokerage. They tell themselves that it keeps them in touch. Then they get home and have to deal with the fact that someone else has put in a bid for that lovely Caravaggio.

****You don't remember that? Must be mind-control satellites.

*****People were talking. And she was a hot, sexy alien before she turned into a space slut.

******Because, Goshdarnit, supercomics writers, why can't a superhero be a good partner and a good parent?

[Clonus]

Re: Superhero Team Members

 

Why aren't any Marvel characters in the Justice League' date=' or D.C. characters in the Avengers? To me it seems a little arbitrary and hard to believe (if they're all in the same world). )[/quote']

 

Yeah, the segregation strikes me as a bit odd. It's also worth considering niche overlap. For example, I'd drop the "America" from Justice League, and give them a more global focus, while the Avengers become the national team of the United States. They can't after all, both be the world's premier super team. But that would mean it would be a good idea to give the Justice League more of an international lineup, adding a few of Marvel's global supers such as Captain Britain, Sabra, and Black Widow along with Ice and Fire.

[Cassandra]

Re: Superhero Team Members

 

Justice League Avengers

 

Superman

Batman

Wonder Woman

Flash

Green Lantern

Ms. Marvel

She Hulk

Black Widow

Black Canary

Green Arrow

Zatanna

Power Girl

Huntress

Captain America

Mary Marvel

Wonder Girl

Supergirl

[Sketchpad]

Re: Superhero Team Members

 

I'm actually surprised there's not more cross-pollination between the teams ...

[Cassandra]

Re: Superhero Team Members

 

The X-Men are a creation of Professor X, and have a "everyone is out to get us" mindset that would prevent them from working well with others. At least until they grew up, and even then some members would work together on other teams. Iceman, Angel, and the Beast were all Defenders after getting away from The X-Men.

[Sketchpad]

Re: Superhero Team Members

 

The X-Men are a creation of Professor X' date=' and have a "everyone is out to get us" mindset that would prevent them from working well with others. At least until they grew up, and even then some members would work together on other teams. Iceman, Angel, and the Beast were all Defenders after getting away from The X-Men.[/quote']

 

Not to mention Havok, Polaris, Colossus and Professor X all serving a single or short term membership with the Defenders, as well as Beast and Wolverine working as an Avenger, Angel putting together the Champions (of LA), and Namor serving with the X-Men. Heck, if the news from NYCC is correct ...

 

 

Storm is joining the Avengers ... which is about bloody time if you ask me! She should've been an Avenger years ago!

 

[Enforcer84]

Re: Superhero Team Members

 

Why aren't any Marvel characters in the Justice League, or D.C. characters in the Avengers? To me it seems a little arbitrary and hard to believe (if they're all in the same world).

 

Here's my ideal superteam lineup from the 1940s:

 

Captain Marvel (Shazam!)

Captain America

Human Torch (1940s android)

Sub-Mariner

Flash (original)

Green Lantern (original)

Wonder Woman

Plastic Man

Phantom Lady

Cat-Man (from Holyoke Comics)

Batman

Hawkman (original)

 

(Never liked Superman's extraterrestrial origin or abilities so he doesn't exist.)

 

How's this any less arbitrary?

[matthewcelis]

Re: Superhero Team Members

 

"How's this any less arbitrary?"

 

I never suggested it wasn't. I was just listing my favorites; she was creating a whole world with arbitrary segregation by publisher. Two different topics.

[ErikModi]

Re: Superhero Team Members

 

Could be their entire history and not current rosters.

 

Pretty much EVERY hero in the Marvel Universe has been a member of the Avengers at one point or another. Even Spider-Man and Wolverine have both been on the team's roster at some point.

[matthewcelis]

Re: Superhero Team Members

 

"Pretty much EVERY hero in the Marvel Universe has been a member of the Avengers at one point or another. Even Spider-Man and Wolverine have both been on the team's roster at some point."

 

And to me that's part of why I have no interest in the Avengers...it used to be "Earth's Mightiest Heroes," then it became a handful of superstars and a bunch of nobodies like Gilgamesh, Sersi, Rage, Justice, Silverclaw, etc. Then confirmed non-team-players like Spider-Man are suddenly getting lessons in superheroing from Iron Man (who, by the way, has less experience (by far) than Spidey).

[assault]

Re: Superhero Team Members

 

The Avengers were originally more "Earth's Heroes", rather than "Earth's Mightiest Heroes".

 

Or rather, they were the heroes who weren't members of more specialised teams (FF, X-Men), or loners like Spidey.

 

The "mightiest" part is questionable, despite what it said on their covers.

 

The same applies to the JLA and JSA.

[ErikModi]

Re: Superhero Team Members

 

I dunno. . . when you have Thor and The Hulk in the same room, I think you can make a pretty solid case for "Earth's Mightiest."

[Cassandra]

Re: Superhero Team Members

 

Teen Titans

 

Supergirl

Robin

Wonder Girl

Aqualad

Kid Flash

Speedy

Miss Martian

[assault]

Re: Superhero Team Members

 

I dunno. . . when you have Thor and The Hulk in the same room' date=' I think you can make a pretty solid case for "Earth's Mightiest."[/quote']

 

The Hulk was a member for about five minutes, leaving in issue #2. (No doubt he has rejoined, left and rejoined again since.)

 

Thor hasn't always been a member. Neither has Iron Man.

 

At one stage, the Avengers consisted of: Cap, Quicksilver, the Scarlet Witch and Hawkeye. Then Hank Pym and the Wasp rejoined.

 

Earth's Mightiest Heroes indeed.

[matthewcelis]

Re: Superhero Team Members

 

The Avengers were originally more "Earth's Heroes", rather than "Earth's Mightiest Heroes".

 

Or rather, they were the heroes who weren't members of more specialised teams (FF, X-Men), or loners like Spidey.

 

The "mightiest" part is a result of later grandstanding, and was never really true anyway.

 

The same applies to the JLA and JSA.

 

You need to actually read the comics you're talking about before you comment, then you would know that it's right there on the cover of Avengers #1: "EARTH'S MIGHTIEST SUPER-HEROES"--not "later grandstanding."

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Avengers-1.jpg

[assault]

Re: Superhero Team Members

 

You need to actually read the comics you're talking about before you comment' date='[/quote']

 

Congratulations! You're the first person to ever be put onto my ignore list.

[ErikModi]

Re: Superhero Team Members

 

The Hulk was a member for about five minutes, leaving in issue #2. (No doubt he has rejoined, left and rejoined again since.)

 

Thor hasn't always been a member. Neither has Iron Man.

 

At one stage, the Avengers consisted of: Cap, Quicksilver, the Scarlet Witch and Hawkeye. Then Hank Pym and the Wasp rejoined.

 

Earth's Mightiest Heroes indeed.

 

Yeah, and it was shown that this was not the team's most solid lineup, yet they STILL conquered all comers.

 

The claim to Earth's Mightiest stands.

 

Anyway, my cross-universe lineups would be (please note, I'm more a Marvel fan than DC, so my DC universe knowledge is somewhat limited:

 

Avengers:

Superman

Captain America

Wonder Woman

Thor

Iron Man

Steel

 

Marvel Knights:

Batman

Robin/Nightwing (whichever you prefer)

Spider-Man

Daredevil

The Flash

 

Thunderbolts:

Venom (Eddie Brock, not Mac Gargan) or Anti-Venom

Songbird

Black Canary

Catwoman

 

Suicide Squad (as sort of the "black ops" counterpart to the Avengers):

Wolverine

Black Widow

Huntress

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Superhero Team Members

 

The Avengers were originally more "Earth's Heroes", rather than "Earth's Mightiest Heroes".

 

Or rather, they were the heroes who weren't members of more specialised teams (FF, X-Men), or loners like Spidey.

 

The "mightiest" part is questionable, despite what it said on their covers.

 

The same applies to the JLA and JSA.

 

You need to actually read the comics you're talking about before you comment, then you would know that it's right there on the cover of Avengers #1: "EARTH'S MIGHTIEST SUPER-HEROES"--not "later grandstanding."

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Avengers-1.jpg

 

And you need to actually read the posts you are responding to, since he clearly knew and stated that it was on the cover in the part of his post I highlighted. What the cover of the comic said was obviously not his point.