Transform Anothers OIF

[gojira]

Some magician guy in PS238 just transformed the Revenant's swing-line into a snake, taking away his movement power. It could be an illusion, but it appears that his swing-line literally did transform.

 

Question: what are some of the ways accomplishing this in Hero, mechanics wise?

 

Go for some interesting mechanics rather than "*poof* it happens". Like, say you can't put any more points into a power as an attack than you pull out of an enemies power. Would something like Drain+Aid+VPP be required here? What are some easier ways of doing this? Suppress+Linked VPP? Something else? What if it actually is an illusion?

 

Finally, baseless speculation: Is this complicated enough to try to build that it might be helpful to add a power to a future APG?

 

 

Here's the comic in question:

http://nodwick.humor.gamespy.com/ps238/comics/index.php?date=2011-10-28

[dmjalund]

Re: Transform Anothers OIF

 

Foci have BODY so theoretically could be transformed with the approriate Transformation attack

[Tom Carman]

Re: Transform Anothers OIF

 

Foci have BODY so theoretically could be transformed with the approriate Transformation attack

 

True, and easy enough for attacking an accessible focus, but the OP did specify OIF. Technically you'd have to take it away from the user first... Although I might allow it with both an area attack encompassing the owner and focus, plus a targetted attack against the actual focus.

[Escafarc]

Re: Transform Anothers OIF

 

True' date=' and easy enough for attacking an accessible focus, but the OP did specify OIF. Technically you'd have to take it away from the user first... Although I might allow it with both an area attack encompassing the owner and focus, plus a targetted attack against the actual focus.[/quote']

 

No, they can still be targeted for purposes of damaging but at -2 OCV(6E1 page 377)

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Transform Anothers OIF

 

This is going to be one of those clashes between dramatic storytelling and balanced gameplay. If the magician has a Transform attack that can turn a rope into a snake, then logically he should be able to do that to a hero's swing-line. But if the swing-line is OIF then from a game balance standpoint he can't unless he gets it away from the hero first. This argues for a Multipower with different slots that essentially represent the same sfx, but different game mechanics.

 

If I were to build "Turn my enemy's gear into a snake" as power, it would be a Drain vs. Focus-based powers (Any 1 power a time +½), Return Delay 5pts/min (or whatever appropriate), and with the limitation Only works if Power is completely Drained (-½). The sfx is that the swing-line or gun can't be used because it turns into a snake.

 

If the snake is actually dangerous and doesn't just slither away then I would add a linked Summon. I would probably make the Summon capable of delivering a limited class of creatures in case a snake wasn't appropriate (say you might turn a grenade into a hedgehog or an armored costume into jellyfish or something).

[Escafarc]

Re: Transform Anothers OIF

 

As for the OP a Major Transform would change the Swing Line into a snake. (i.e. take away the Swinging Power) now if you want the snake to attack that would require a 2nd power maybe Linked.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Transform Anothers OIF

 

To me, this just looks like the special effect of a Dispel. The snake is gone after one panel in which it does nothing other than look threatening; it doesn't appear to have been an actual hazard.

 

To make it an actual hazard, use a linked Summon as Ockham's Spoon suggests.

[Christopher]

Re: Transform Anothers OIF

 

Some magician guy in PS238 just transformed the Revenant's swing-line into a snake' date=' taking away his movement power. It could be an illusion, but it appears that his swing-line literally did transform.[/quote']

 

To me, this just looks like the special effect of a Dispel. The snake is gone after one panel in which it does nothing other than look threatening; it doesn't appear to have been an actual hazard.

 

To make it an actual hazard, use a linked Summon as Ockham's Spoon suggests.

In fact I would go one step lower: This was just the SFX of a Ranged Attack.

 

It was a Focus. Foci can be destroyed, no matter if they are accessible or inaccessible. As long as the snake doesn't does anything, I would just call it a "magic blast" and leave it there.

You only need Dispel, when you want to stop something not based on a Focus or when you try to circumvent the defenses (by going against Power Defense).

 

For Transforming a Focus:

This is explicitly possible. There are some special Rules regarding Unbreakable Foci, but normally they have a Body (at least equal to their PD/ED for purposes of Transform) and thus can be transformed.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Transform Anothers OIF

 

This is going to be one of those clashes between dramatic storytelling and balanced gameplay. If the magician has a Transform attack that can turn a rope into a snake' date=' then logically he should be able to do that to a hero's swing-line. But if the swing-line is OIF then from a game balance standpoint he can't unless he gets it away from the hero first. This argues for a Multipower with different slots that essentially represent the same sfx, but different game mechanics.[/quote']

But that's incorrect as Escafarc pointed up in the post directly above yours. OIFoci can not be taken away in combat. They can be targeted and damaged in combat. It would be ridiculous to be otherwise. Player: "I shoot at his communication antenna". GM: "You can't, it's part of his helmet which is an Inaccessible Focus..."

 

As to the OP, I’d go with Transform, though it clearly could be a Special Effects for some other Power.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Transform Anothers OIF

 

Transform (if all it does is take away the focus) works for me; the entire concept of the Focus limitation is that you can be denied the focus and thus access to the power that requires it.

 

A summon linked to the transform if the snake is then going to attack or perform other actions.

 

And now I'm off to build a new NPC for the next chapter of my game...

[gojira]

Re: Transform Anothers OIF

 

Thanks for the replies, folks. You've all given me ideas for this thing. A few points of my own.

 

I agree that simplest is best. For a lot of things, Dispell + SFX is probably the way to go.

 

Summon I might allow if it was carefully scoped. However, I regard Summon as cheese for a lot of builds, and probably wouldn't allow it other than for normal critters.

 

It occurs to me now that Dispell + Illusion linked might be the best option here. Is there a Linked limitation that requires both powers to succeed or else both fail? Like the Dispell roll has to work, AND the target has to believe the Illusion, or neither works? I might just go with Linked on both; -1/2 sounds about right for both powers.

 

I'd still like some thoughts on something like Dispell, + "Attack Power". Rather than allow a Summon, what about just buying the animal's attack as a power? That seems more balanced to me (Dividing the points in a summon by 5 is just too good for me to give to most players). I'm drawing a blank on good ways to simulate this.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Transform Anothers OIF

 

But that's incorrect as Escafarc pointed up in the post directly above yours. OIFoci can not be taken away in combat. They can be targeted and damaged in combat. It would be ridiculous to be otherwise. Player: "I shoot at his communication antenna". GM: "You can't' date=' it's part of his helmet which is an Inaccessible Focus..."[/font']

 

As to the OP, I’d go with Transform, though it clearly could be a Special Effects for some other Power.

 

Point well taken. This brings up some practical matters about defining one's Foci, but that would be a bit of a thread drift.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Transform Anothers OIF

 

Thanks for the replies, folks. You've all given me ideas for this thing. A few points of my own.

 

I agree that simplest is best. For a lot of things, Dispell + SFX is probably the way to go.

 

Summon I might allow if it was carefully scoped. However, I regard Summon as cheese for a lot of builds, and probably wouldn't allow it other than for normal critters.

 

It occurs to me now that Dispell + Illusion linked might be the best option here. Is there a Linked limitation that requires both powers to succeed or else both fail? Like the Dispell roll has to work, AND the target has to believe the Illusion, or neither works? I might just go with Linked on both; -1/2 sounds about right for both powers.

 

I'd still like some thoughts on something like Dispell, + "Attack Power". Rather than allow a Summon, what about just buying the animal's attack as a power? That seems more balanced to me (Dividing the points in a summon by 5 is just too good for me to give to most players). I'm drawing a blank on good ways to simulate this.

 

Keep in mind that if you do use summon, you can limit the powers of the summoned critter beyond just a point limit - "It's a snake, it has a 1 pip killing attack bite, maybe 4d6 Constrict..." But yes, using summon is a bit complex; depends on what all the summoned critter can do. If all it can do is attack, then building it as an attack is probably better. If it can perform other actions than merely attack (grab, move to another target, etc.), then possibly the summon is more appropriate.

 

As far as it being Dispel + an attack, well, you turn their focus into a snake, the snake then tries to bite you, yes? I'll work something up in HD when I have a moment (assuming nobody beats me to it.)

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Transform Anothers OIF

 

A character in my campaign has the ability to summon Elemental Constructs. While handy, once I bought all the Automaton powers, sold off their senses and such (they are mindless, and all but the earth constructs have no limbs, hands, or physical forms, and then all have no senses of their own and merely act at the behest of the PC), they barely have the average DC of attacks they need to be effective in combat.

 

Summon is not generally overpowered so long as you make sure the summoned critter spends their points on all the powers they should have, and not just on one "alpha attack" or whatever.

 

The main problem with Summon is that it adds another NPC to keep track of; even if the player keeps track of it, it makes things take longer if you are not careful.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Transform Anothers OIF

 

Maybe something like:

 

Stick to Snake: (Total: 93 Active Cost, 47 Real Cost) Severe Transform 3d6 (Stick-like Object into Living Snake, Heals back by Killing Summoned Snake or standard rate (5 AP of BODY per Turn; remains transformed until fully healed))), Indirect (Source Point is the same for every use, path is from Source Point to target (No path; effect generated at target); +1/4) (56 Active Points); All Or Nothing (-1/2) (Real Cost: 37) plus Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6, Indirect (Source Point is the same for every use, path is from Source Point to target (Object held by target, transformed into snake, strikes target); +1/4), Costs Endurance Only To Activate (+1/4), No Range Modifier (+1/2), Constant (+1/2) (37 Active Points); Cannot use any maneuvers (-1), Linked (Transform; Lesser Power can only be used when character uses greater Power at full value; -3/4), Restrainable (Snake can be grabbed) (-1/2), Beam (-1/4) (Real Cost: 10)

 

Granted, I don't do everything exactly 'by the books,' and the power level may not match your setting, so alter this to fit your own needs / interpretation. Even more complicated would be if you wanted the snake to be poisonous. And change the killing attack to a normal attack for just a constrict attack.

[Tom Carman]

Re: Transform Anothers OIF

 

No' date=' they can still be targeted for purposes of damaging but at -2 OCV(6E1 page 377)[/quote']

 

Yet another 6-ism with which I disagree. In previous versions, the above rule applied to accessible foci.

"HERO System Rulesbook 105

An Inaccessible Focus can’t be hit with a Grab or a ranged

attack while the character is in combat. However, an

Inaccessible Focus can be taken away by someone taking

one Turn out of combat."

[Folded]

Re: Transform Anothers OIF

 

Related question that occurred to me. What about other powers built specifically to affect Foci? I am thinking primarily of Growth, Shrinking and Density Increase with UAA on them, Only vs. Foci. At first, it was just the thought that multiplying the mass of some agent's fancy little gun might be an effective tactic. Then I wondered what would happen if you shrank someone's power armor while they were wearing it. Obviously too much effect for the points it would cost, since it's essentially insta-death if you follow the logic, but how could you make it workable? Is such an ability even legal by the rules? Could you render someone's Focus Desolid?

 

Not trying to derail, but these seem like relevant questions.

[Folded]

Re: Transform Anothers OIF

 

Yet another 6-ism with which I disagree. In previous versions' date=' the above rule applied to [u']accessible[/u] foci.

"HERO System Rulesbook 105

An Inaccessible Focus can’t be hit with a Grab or a ranged

attack while the character is in combat. However, an

Inaccessible Focus can be taken away by someone taking

one Turn out of combat."

 

So I can target your head with a ranged attack, but not the helmet you're wearing? Not trying to be sarcastic, just trying to understand the logic.

[Christopher]

Re: Transform Anothers OIF

 

Yet another 6-ism with which I disagree. In previous versions' date=' the above rule applied to [u']accessible[/u] foci.

"HERO System Rulesbook 105

An Inaccessible Focus can’t be hit with a Grab or a ranged

attack while the character is in combat. However, an

Inaccessible Focus can be taken away by someone taking

one Turn out of combat."

 

So I can target your head with a ranged attack' date=' but not the helmet you're wearing? Not trying to be sarcastic, just trying to understand the logic.[/quote']

Also, 6E clearly disagrees with the above:

"An Inaccessible Focus can’t be [...] attacked for purposes of taking it away from a character while that character is in combat (an Inaccessible Focus could still be targeted at -2 OCV to hit it for the purposes of damaging it; see below)."

 

 

And it is really wierd: I can damage your armor just by hitting you in the cest, but I can't shoot of your shoulder gun?

 

Related question that occurred to me. What about other powers built specifically to affect Foci? I am thinking primarily of Growth, Shrinking and Density Increase with UAA on them, Only vs. Foci. At first, it was just the thought that multiplying the mass of some agent's fancy little gun might be an effective tactic. Then I wondered what would happen if you shrank someone's power armor while they were wearing it. Obviously too much effect for the points it would cost, since it's essentially insta-death if you follow the logic, but how could you make it workable? Is such an ability even legal by the rules? Could you render someone's Focus Desolid?

 

Not trying to derail, but these seem like relevant questions.

Generally I am strikly against using any form of "Self only" Power with UAA. It is terribly inbalancing. When you want to Force somebody into intangibility, buy a Transform that gives him "Desolidification, Always on".

Luckily the same things aren't as difficulty for Foci.

 

The "make weapon heavier":

I already though about that. The simplest way would be to "Drain STR, only for holding the hit object" (keeping the rules for 0 STR and Encumberance in mind). But you could also use Change Environment/TK with limitation to simulate a force "dragging" the weapon down. Every -5 STR or 5 STR "drawing" the weapon down means the weight doubeled (since the STR charts are designed around every "5 points doubles").

 

"Shrink weapon"/"Shrink Armor"/"Desolid Focus":

At tops a Dispel with that special effect. Might have a time limit, when the weapon regrows/get's physical again.

I chase of armor: Only the armor plates shrink. No part that would "logically"* damage the character when shrinking.

 

*aside, "logic" and "shrink objects with a touch" don't belong in the same sentence. If you want to do damage, make a linked TK, that you use to Grab and Squeeze. Or a linked Blast.

[Tom Carman]

Re: Transform Anothers OIF

 

So I can target your head with a ranged attack' date=' but not the helmet you're wearing? Not trying to be sarcastic, just trying to understand the logic.[/quote']

 

"106 HERO System Rulesbook

Any Focus that provides defenses to the character is

automatically hit by any attack that hits the character. Of

course, the Focus gets its DEF or the defense it provides to

the character (whichever is higher) against the attack. If the

character has multiple foci, all Foci are “outside” of any

defenses they don’t provide — so if Armadillo had OAF

goggles that gave him Telescopic Vision, the defenses

provided by his powered armor wouldn’t protect the goggles

from damage. (Of course he could have just made them OIF

and part of the suit, but this would have cost more points.)"

 

Technically, any Breakable OIF Armor is subject to being damaged and broken by the attacks that it intercepts, but in practice this rule seems to be roundly ignored in every version of the rules, at least in Superheroic games. It's also been my experience over the years that GMs allow OIF power armor to be specifically targetted for damage (because that can knock out the various powers bought through the armor). While not book-legal in older rules, I would be OK with targetting your OIF helmet at a -10 penalty (-8 for the Head location, -2 for targetting the focus).

[Escafarc]

Re: Transform Anothers OIF

 

"106 HERO System Rulesbook

Any Focus that provides defenses to the character is

automatically hit by any attack that hits the character. Of

course, the Focus gets its DEF or the defense it provides to

the character (whichever is higher) against the attack. If the

character has multiple foci, all Foci are “outside” of any

defenses they don’t provide — so if Armadillo had OAF

goggles that gave him Telescopic Vision, the defenses

provided by his powered armor wouldn’t protect the goggles

from damage. (Of course he could have just made them OIF

and part of the suit, but this would have cost more points.)"

 

Technically, any Breakable OIF Armor is subject to being damaged and broken by the attacks that it intercepts, but in practice this rule seems to be roundly ignored in every version of the rules, at least in Superheroic games. It's also been my experience over the years that GMs allow OIF power armor to be specifically targetted for damage (because that can knock out the various powers bought through the armor). While not book-legal in older rules, I would be OK with targetting your OIF helmet at a -10 penalty (-8 for the Head location, -2 for targetting the focus).

 

So all 6E did was make your House Rule into Rules as Written.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Transform Anothers OIF

 

Yet another 6-ism with which I disagree. In previous versions' date=' the above rule applied to [u']accessible[/u] foci.

"HERO System Rulesbook 105

An Inaccessible Focus can’t be hit with a Grab or a ranged

attack while the character is in combat. However, an

Inaccessible Focus can be taken away by someone taking

one Turn out of combat."

 

What Edition are you even quoting? It's not a "6E ism", it was exactly the same in 5ER.

[Greywind]

Re: Transform Anothers OIF

 

What Edition are you even quoting? It's not a "6E ism"' date=' it was exactly the same in 5ER.[/quote']

pg 292

 

"An Inaccessible Focus can't be hit with a Grab or otherwise attacked for purposes of taking it away from a character while that character is in combat (an Inaccessible Focus could still be targeted at -2 OCV to hit it for the purposes of damaging it...) However, someone who spends 1 Turn out of combat can take an Inaccessible Focus away from a character. An Inaccessible Focus cannot be removed from a character who is struggling or resisting."

[Greywind]

Re: Transform Anothers OIF

 

Technically' date=' any Breakable OIF Armor is subject to being damaged and broken by the attacks that it intercepts, but in practice this rule seems to be roundly ignored in every version of the rules, at least in Superheroic games. It's also been my experience over the years that GMs allow OIF power armor to be specifically targetted for damage (because that can knock out the various powers bought through the armor). While not book-legal in older rules, I would be OK with targetting your OIF helmet at a -10 penalty (-8 for the Head location, -2 for targetting the focus).[/quote']I've used it to the detriment of the Power Armor Hero. It was a good reason for the character to implement upgrades. I didn't/don't do it for every character/attack that came along. I used it for a specific purpose which in the long run benefited the PC as well, while making that particular combat a little more interesting.

[Christopher]

Re: Transform Anothers OIF

 

I've used it to the detriment of the Power Armor Hero. It was a good reason for the character to implement upgrades. I didn't/don't do it for every character/attack that came along. I used it for a specific purpose which in the long run benefited the PC as well' date=' while making that particular combat a little more interesting.[/quote']

The rules sounds like it's mostly for heroic games/killing attack heavy games. The average blast should not have a chance to damage an armor (if it could, I don't want to see the STUN it does....)