azato Posted October 30, 2011 Report Share Posted October 30, 2011 Traveller...District 268 of the Spinward Marches has a world where instead of water there is Nitric Acid....and supposedly life lives with the seas....and three scientists are there to study it. A few questions: All I can think of is ALIEN....any thoughts on what kind of life would exist (rubber science is fine)? It sound like nitric acid loves to eat metal. What materials would shelter and vehicles need to be made of? Ceramics? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azato Posted October 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2011 Re: Judice: A world with Nitric Acid instead of Water Plus...any random thoughts that come to your mind. I did not intend for this to be the main place for adventure..but definitely want some fun stuff to take place if possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Folded Posted October 30, 2011 Report Share Posted October 30, 2011 Re: Judice: A world with Nitric Acid instead of Water Not as alien as you might think. There are not entirely dissimilar environments here on earth, including inside your own digestive tract. Not with nitric, I don't think, but other acids and bases, sometimes with fairly extreme pH values. As to structures, gold is apparently non-reactive with nitric acid, so gold film or plating might be the best choice, depending on other environmental factors (winds, precipitation, etc). With a high enough Tech Level, force fields could be used, as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted October 30, 2011 Report Share Posted October 30, 2011 Re: Judice: A world with Nitric Acid instead of Water With a high enough Tech Level' date=' force fields could be used, as well.[/quote'] Or just plain "use caves"/"build into the mountains". It think in Traveler that is fairly standart with "Corosive" Atmosphere. Note that the tech needed to life could be way above what the planet can produce. They just have to import it - and need some natural resouce to export/sell for it/make it worth settling there. I think I even once rolled up a planet with "Corosive" Atmosphere, but the TL was under what is needed to have Acid-Proof equipment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmjalund Posted October 30, 2011 Report Share Posted October 30, 2011 Re: Judice: A world with Nitric Acid instead of Water could have involved a native sentient race Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azato Posted October 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2011 Re: Judice: A world with Nitric Acid instead of Water Yeah...i did read on wikipedia about the gold...thought maybe that was a bit over the top..but I suppose plating parts..And there could be other acid resistant coatings that could be applied. I didn't think about the environment being that dissimilar to our own. I suppose it is also possible that life could be structured to be kinda like "inside-out" stomachs....since our own bodies do produce and deal with acid regularly in our stomachs and is well protected against it. I guess another part of the issue is the concentration of the acid. It is quite possible that its effects are quicker than our own acid rain....but much less aggressive than straight acid. Perhaps. Normal equipment and vehicles are used...with some protective coating but with the understanding that it would need replacements every 6 mo to a year. Perhaps that is where I need to go with this. THere would be no "farming" of any type going on with this world...except maybe some yeast vats....there are only 3 people and they are doing research. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Folded Posted October 30, 2011 Report Share Posted October 30, 2011 Re: Judice: A world with Nitric Acid instead of Water Yeah, the key is the concentration. If we're talking seas of pure acid and high vapor concentrations in the atmosphere, then this is an extremely hostile environment. If the concentrations are low, however, then it's a matter of building slightly specialized equipment with minimal alterations. Also remember that gold is commonly used in modern space exploration for a variety of reasons, so it's not that big a stretch to use it here. It seems to me that this would, in geological terms, be a temporary situation under most circumstances (Venus-like planets aside). The acid will react with its surroundings, ultimately losing its strength as time goes on. Unless, of course, there is some process taking place to replenish the stuff fairly quickly. In terms of the possibilities for intelligent life, this might be a chance to explore some possibilities in chemically based communication, among other things. Definitely an interesting setting, whether minor or major. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraven Kor Posted October 30, 2011 Report Share Posted October 30, 2011 Re: Judice: A world with Nitric Acid instead of Water And remember that, once you are capable of efficient space travel between stars, from whatever tech that allows it, you are also likely to be mining metal-rich asteroids, making gold much less expensive I would imagine. I read in a Playboy article about asteroid mining that a single large-ish asteroid could contain enough gold and platinum (among other metals) to totally crash the world market for precious metals. Like Gold at a dollar an ounce type crash. All depending on the cost of getting that asteroid to earth, of course, but I think the article mentioned the numbers at somewhere in the quadrillions of dollars for the value of metal contained in the asteroid at current prices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted October 30, 2011 Report Share Posted October 30, 2011 Re: Judice: A world with Nitric Acid instead of Water I read in a Playboy article That is something you don't hear very often Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clonus Posted October 30, 2011 Report Share Posted October 30, 2011 Re: Judice: A world with Nitric Acid instead of Water Traveller...District 268 of the Spinward Marches has a world where instead of water there is Nitric Acid....and supposedly life lives with the seas....and three scientists are there to study it. A few questions: All I can think of is ALIEN....any thoughts on what kind of life would exist (rubber science is fine)? It sound like nitric acid loves to eat metal. What materials would shelter and vehicles need to be made of? Ceramics? I'm betting that the oceans are _dilute_ nitric acid which is not so bad. It would increase corrosion problems but there would probably be something like car wax that you'd regularly apply to exposed metal to protect from acid rain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azato Posted October 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2011 Re: Judice: A world with Nitric Acid instead of Water The text simply says "Judice’s corrosive atmosphere/hydrosphere, where nitric acid has replaced water, has attracted an Imperial research team, who have set up a research station to investigate the world’s primitive (but extremely hardy) life forms evolving in the “seas.”" My first reaction was WHOA.....severe. But while it says REPLACED which in my mind means...completely....I don't have to follow this. Even though I have some hard core Traveller people playing they wont mind a deviation. Kraven - I think the trade off for mining asteroids is cost vs mass destruction. The cheapest, easiest way to do it would be to hurl the rock to earth. Yeah...gold may be the key..or some sort of coating could be made that was invented in the nest few thousand years. My initial thoughts for usage of this planet was trivial...the players were going to drop on the planet, off load cargo, and then make a swap (on paper but not in reality) of scientists with passengers. Their patron was creating a fake paperwork trail of sorts to swap out spies on another planet. But I thought this planet may have some other options as well. Some thoughts.... 1. A scientist lost and needing rescued. Perhaps finding an tunnel system....lost empty city....temple. Maybe find something cool, but not crazy. 2. A scientist lost and needing rescued...with corrosive effects putting rescuers at danger. 3. The scientists expecting replacements and realizing they are NOT getting furloughed and demand being taken off planet. 4. Aliens plot runs though my mind....but everybody knows that storyline. Feel free to discuss and throw stuff out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csyphrett Posted October 31, 2011 Report Share Posted October 31, 2011 Re: Judice: A world with Nitric Acid instead of Water i am not a biologist so take this with a grain of salt. If the team is studying life in the sea, it doesnt have to be intelligent. It just has to be resistant to acid. If an animal could be naturally resistant to such an environment, study might be for some way to duplicate the skin for other planets. CES Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mallet Posted October 31, 2011 Report Share Posted October 31, 2011 Re: Judice: A world with Nitric Acid instead of Water Maybe the planet didn't always have an acidic atmosphere? Maybe it was once hospitable with advanced life, but something, either "man-made (alien made)" caused the change in the environment, killing off 99.9% of the life forms, or maybe it was a natural disaster that had the same effect? A comet made up of frozen nitric acid crashed into the planet centuries ago. If it was a "man-made" disaster, maybe it was a super weapon used by a powerful alien race a long time ago. The question then become, why did they want to destroy this planets ecosystem? Were they trying to hide something or stop something? If so, what remains hidden under the surface of the planet? And what about this super weapon? Could it be re-discovered? Replicated? If so, a lot of interested parties would be intent on getting a weapon so powerful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Folded Posted October 31, 2011 Report Share Posted October 31, 2011 Re: Judice: A world with Nitric Acid instead of Water Maybe the planet didn't always have an acidic atmosphere? Maybe it was once hospitable with advanced life' date=' but something, either "man-made (alien made)" caused the change in the environment, killing off 99.9% of the life forms, or maybe it was a natural disaster that had the same effect? A comet made up of frozen nitric acid crashed into the planet centuries ago. If it was a "man-made" disaster, maybe it was a super weapon used by a powerful alien race a long time ago. The question then become, why did they want to destroy this planets ecosystem? Were they trying to hide something or stop something? If so, what remains hidden under the surface of the planet? And what about this super weapon? Could it be re-discovered? Replicated? If so, a lot of interested parties would be intent on getting a weapon so powerful.[/quote'] I like this. What if the reason they wanted to destroy this ecosystem was just to make sure the thing worked. And they're out there, somewhere... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraven Kor Posted October 31, 2011 Report Share Posted October 31, 2011 Re: Judice: A world with Nitric Acid instead of Water When you listed off adventure ideas, this just sprang to mind. A variation of the 'rescue the scientists' bit; a habitat breach. Maybe an earthquake or (more suitably) sabotage. Basically set it up so the characters may not be exactly ready or near their equipment, and have to survive the breach while rescuing scientists, getting themselves and the NPC's to safety, then trying to figure out what went wrong and finish their business as well. Could be tied to the "alien legacy" thread as well; religious fanatics or some other nefarious type trying to stop the scientists from discovering whatever secret the planet holds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cancer Posted October 31, 2011 Report Share Posted October 31, 2011 Re: Judice: A world with Nitric Acid instead of Water Thinking about the nucleosynthetic context of this world ... to get lots of nitric acid you'd need a carbon-starved elemental mix, I think. At temperatures where chemistry is relevant, N tends to go into N2 or ammonia, C and O tend to get together to make CO or CO2. If there's excess O to react with hydrogen you get water; if there's excess C then you get methane. Nitric acid reacts rather unpleasantly with more or less anything organic, so you definitely would have a carbon-starved chemical environment (or else all the nitric acid would have already been consumed in destroying carbon compounds). From the stability of HNO3, looks like you'd also want a colder world; in the regime of -40 to 0 Celsius. I can think of ways to get N- and O-rich but C-poor material from which to form your star & planets; the post-red giant (but not post-AGB) metal-poor stars could do this. Hmm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted October 31, 2011 Report Share Posted October 31, 2011 Re: Judice: A world with Nitric Acid instead of Water There is a Classic Traveler Adventure called "Shadows". Plays on Yorbund (C7C6503-7). Basically the travellers are forced to explore a alien structure, while the corosive atmosphere eats on their spacesuits. I think it would be fairly easy to transplant this to any planet with corosive atmosphere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azato Posted November 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 Re: Judice: A world with Nitric Acid instead of Water Hmmmm...thanks all....great stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azato Posted November 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 Re: Judice: A world with Nitric Acid instead of Water I have Shadows in my Traveller book....phanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azato Posted November 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 2, 2011 Re: Judice: A world with Nitric Acid instead of Water Would it be possible to have "normal" looking creatures in this environment? It seems like the Traveller adventure seems to think so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csyphrett Posted November 2, 2011 Report Share Posted November 2, 2011 Re: Judice: A world with Nitric Acid instead of Water if it is just a fish, or a type of fish, they might look like what we consider normal. the major difference might be the resistance of acid. They would probably be poisonous to eat. Same with the plants, if there are any. CES Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Folded Posted November 2, 2011 Report Share Posted November 2, 2011 Re: Judice: A world with Nitric Acid instead of Water if it is just a fish, or a type of fish, they might look like what we consider normal. the major difference might be the resistance of acid. They would probably be poisonous to eat. Same with the plants, if there are any. CES If they evolved naturally in this environment, they might even be composed (largely) of acid, as we are composed (largely) of water. Not resistant, as such, but making use of its properties directly. I'm not sure what other kinds of physical structures could be present in a nitric solution, as it reacts strongly to carbon-based organics, but I don't know enough chemistry to say whether it's possible/probable or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azato Posted November 5, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2011 Re: Judice: A world with Nitric Acid instead of Water HA....enough adventures were either spooked by the acid atmosphere....or the pyramids (long story) that they chose not attempt it. Best laid plans...... (***SIGH***) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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