Persuasion vs Oratory

[Reality]

Does Persuasion differ from Oratory in any significant way other than that the target audience doesn't offer counter arguments and the size of the audience?

[Steve Long]

Re: Persuasion vs Oratory

 

This seems to me like it's a discussion topic rather than a rules question, so I've moved it to the Discussion board where everyone can respond.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Persuasion vs Oratory

 

Does Persuasion differ from Oratory in any significant way other than that the target audience doesn't offer counter arguments and the size of the audience?

 

Persuasion, imo, is the art of persuasive speaking(which can include facial expressions,tone of voice, gestures and body language cues), while Oratory is the art of public speaking. Someone who is skilled at convincing one fellow diner of something may not necessarily be skilled at convincing 1000 people in a crowded dining hall. Persuasion could, however, be complementary to Oratory, if one is attempting, e.g., to lie convincingly to the aforementioned dinner crowd.

The other thing I might suggest is that Oratory is more generalized of an interaction skill. You can give a speech to persuade, inform, frighten, charm, inspire, influence or entertain an audience, while persuasion is more directed to convincing, persuading and influencing a target.

[Folded]

Re: Persuasion vs Oratory

 

Assuming that Persuasion is generally targeted at an individual and Oratory is targeted at multiple individuals, then it is, in part, a difference in technique. A person speaking to another person will use certain patterns or language (spoken and body), will probably maintain eye contact, and will adjust his/her speech and propositions to suit that particular individual as the conversation continues. An Orator will use different speech patterns, different body language and will often spread eye contact throughout the crowd. He/She is also much more likely to work from a set speech without adapting (as much) to the responses of the audience. And while they do represent somewhat different skills, I would consider them to be very closely related (certainly Complementary), and probably would allow the substitution of one for the other with a relatively small penalty.

[bluesguy]

Re: Persuasion vs Oratory

 

I always think of Oratory as a way to inspire & convince a group of people. I think of Persuasion as a one-on-one skill.

 

I always consider Oratory to be a complementary skill when PRE attacks are made.

[Christopher]

Re: Persuasion vs Oratory

 

The main difference I see, is that the Orator has less ability to "react". He targets an entire audience instead of a single being and he can't react perfectly to every single person.

 

I do not think Oratory and persuasion should be interchangeable:

A character might be good at convincing a single person, but chicken out when faced with a group.

On the other hand there might be group manipulators, who can't sell you a bread if their life depends on it.

 

Oratory is what CEO's, entertainers and other "centerpoint" people should have, along with a PRE of at least 20. As well as your average news anchorman and Talk-show moderator.

 

If Persuasion or Oratory is complementary to PRE attacks:

I think it depends if you target henchmen (maybe duplicates) or a superhuman enemy.

"Your fiendish felony is finished falcone" is clearly a single target/persuasion example.

[dmjalund]

Re: Persuasion vs Oratory

 

A good Orator understands crowd dynamics.

[Reality]

Re: Persuasion vs Oratory

 

I guess it boils down to why do I even need Oratory when I can just buy PSL's to offset a penalty for crowd size (set by the GM)? It could apply to one or many other Skills. Whether or not the crowd "answers back" is really a question of do they challenge the speaker in a Skill vs Skill.

[Reality]

Re: Persuasion vs Oratory

 

I guess it boils down to why do I even need Oratory when I can just buy PSL's to offset a penalty for crowd size (set by the GM)? It could apply to one or many other Skills. Whether or not the crowd "answers back" is really a question of do they challenge the speaker in a Skill vs Skill.

 

I'm thinking a -1 penalty for every five people targeted past the first ten people.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Persuasion vs Oratory

 

At some point, Oratory becomes cheaper than the PSL's. That point depends on the level of penalties applied.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Persuasion vs Oratory

 

At some point' date=' Oratory becomes cheaper than the PSL's. That point depends on the level of penalties applied.[/quote']

 

True. One could give, say, an inaugural address in front of a million+ people, which is televised to millions(or even billions) more. There's no penalties for size of crowd. Also, as I noted, Oratory can be used for purposes other than persuasion.

[Christopher]

Re: Persuasion vs Oratory

 

I guess it boils down to why do I even need Oratory when I can just buy PSL's to offset a penalty for crowd size (set by the GM)? It could apply to one or many other Skills. Whether or not the crowd "answers back" is really a question of do they challenge the speaker in a Skill vs Skill.

Asuming the Gm let's you. PSL for Skills are a GM Option.

 

And even if the GM allows it: at a penalty of 3, Oratory and PSL would break even....

[phoenix240]

Re: Persuasion vs Oratory

 

Oratory is Persuasion brought with Area of Effect.

[Christopher]

Re: Persuasion vs Oratory

 

Oratory is Persuasion brought with Area of Effect.

That would also mean it should have a harder time (higher skill penalty) archieving good results.

[phoenix240]

Re: Persuasion vs Oratory

 

That would also mean it should have a harder time (higher skill penalty) archieving good results.

 

That was a joke, my friend.

[Christopher]

Re: Persuasion vs Oratory

 

That was a joke' date=' my friend. [/quote']

This might have been the intention, but it could actually be on the point!

 

A 8D6 Blast, Are of Effect (+1/2) costs the same as a 12d6 Blast.

And Oratory costs the same as Persuasion.

 

Now we only need to figure out how much "worser" Oratory should be to archive the same effect and at how many people the group size starts to be an issue.

[KX_Mushashi]

Re: Persuasion vs Oratory

 

Looking over Oratory, it also states a modifier for the target's receptiveness of the message. If you are at a conference or a town hall meeting you probably want to hear what the person is talking about so that would be a bit of a bonus. If you are a speaker at a protest then you probably are talking to people that don't want to hear you as much but since it also says in the oratory skill description, that if you want to be an effective persuader or liar you should take persuasion, I would probably say they you get to roll persuasion as a comp roll.

[Vondy]

Re: Persuasion vs Oratory

 

Persuasion and Oratory are the same skill with slightly nuanced applicability. Essentially, Hero made a judgement call on how nuanced the skill list needed to be. You could further subdivide skills, or collapse some of them, based on your approach to design. You could also add or subtract skills. I added "human perception," for instance. The division of background skills, or whether many are necessary when several skills from the official list would cover many things, is also a judgement call. The trend as editions have advanced is to increase granularity (note the schemas for skills like animal handling, gambling, survival, sysop, etc) and add background skills that may be more flavor than effect when one takes the time to read the skill descriptions. This is largely stylistic.