6ed Transfer: Is It Just More Than An Aid Linked To Drain?

[steriaca]

I asked Steve about the old power Transfer and he refered me to pages in a book I can't get yet (I only have the Basic Rulebook and APG1). So, I take it that 'Transfer' (the special effect) is more than using Linked the power Drain for the power Aid, right? What else do I need (like what advantage or limitation do I need to use one dice roll for both powers like the original power)?

[Mister E]

Re: 6ed Transfer: Is It Just More Than An Aid Linked To Drain?

 

"STUN Transfer":

 

Drain STUN w/ Unified Power (-¼).

 

[plus]

 

Aid STUN w/ Trigger (+1)... Linked (-½), Unified Power (-¼), Aid Self Only (-1).

[Ozymandias]

Re: 6ed Transfer: Is It Just More Than An Aid Linked To Drain?

 

By the RAW, you'd have to roll the Drain/Aid separately, but if I were GM, I'd just say one roll counts for both assuming both had the same number of dice. Even if they had different numbers of dice, I'd roll the smaller number first, then roll the difference, and add it.

[Balabanto]

Re: 6ed Transfer: Is It Just More Than An Aid Linked To Drain?

 

Alternatively, create a +1/2 advantage on drain called Transfer that does what the old power used to do. There are THREE very good reasons for doing this.

 

1) Drain now has range for free. This brings the power into line a little more, especially since certain drains (END in particular) are now ridiculously destructive.

 

2) Power points are conserved, along with the laws of conservation of matter and energy. You can't drain 3 points from someone and wind up with 18, which is kind of ridiculous to begin with.

 

3) Combat is resolved more quickly, because you have to make one less roll. Hero System Combat is long enough.

[Ozymandias]

Re: 6ed Transfer: Is It Just More Than An Aid Linked To Drain?

 

2) Power points are conserved' date=' along with the laws of conservation of matter and energy. You can't drain 3 points from someone and wind up with 18, which is kind of ridiculous to begin with.[/quote']

 

I will disagree with this one thing, for one reason; Abilities in Hero are not linear. If you are 10 STR and drain 5 strength from a 25 STR foe, now you lift 200 kg, and your opponent lifts 400 kg. Put another way, you can lift 100kg more, while your opponent can lift 400kg less, for a net loss of 300 kg.

[dmjalund]

Re: 6ed Transfer: Is It Just More Than An Aid Linked To Drain?

 

By the RAW' date=' you'd have to roll the Drain/Aid separately, but if I were GM, I'd just say one roll counts for both assuming both had the same number of dice. Even if they had different numbers of dice, I'd roll the smaller number first, then roll the difference, and add it.[/quote']I would declare it as a variant of the Standard Effect rule

[Balabanto]

Re: 6ed Transfer: Is It Just More Than An Aid Linked To Drain?

 

I will disagree with this one thing' date=' for one reason; Abilities in Hero are not linear. If you are 10 STR and drain 5 strength from a 25 STR foe, now you lift 200 kg, and your opponent lifts 400 kg. Put another way, you can lift 100kg more, while your opponent can lift 400kg less, for a net loss of 300 kg.[/quote']

 

You're missing it. They're exponential. This creates a net gain that varies directly as the square. Every 5 points is a doubling. So by draining 3 power points from my opponent, there's a flat 1 in 216 chance that the end result from there will be that I gain 18 power points when the aid goes off assuming the numbers are equal. Now, in most games, given the way GM's regulate them, this pretty much equals instant defeat for whoever got drained. The average superhero game runs on the same parameters as it did 20 years ago. 10-12 die attacks, 20-25 point defenses, and SPD 4-6. Lose that many power points from something, especially a mind stat like EGO or INT, and the battle is over for you. (9- to take an action at EGO 0. 9- to not repeat the same action at INT 0) And the aid is WAY cheaper than the drain, because most players like simple math. 3d6 of drain is the AP equivalent of 5d6 of Aid. It's 60 active points, but it's broken. AID has always been ridiculous and far too cheap, in my opinion. What you're talking about is just flat out wrong. Having playtested this system for most of it's natural life and being a writer for it, I can tell you that your equation does NOT hold, in any way, shape, or form. The flaw in your argument is that Power Defense exists, really. I can drain ZERO from my opponent and still gain the benefits of the Aid, which is the dumbest thing out of the whole business. The system NEVER should have been balanced for Standard Effect. Or Standard Effect should have been 3.5 instead of 3.

 

You can't just look at what you think is balanced. You have to look at the empirical observation over time of how most people actually build things for convenience and simplicity.

[Ozymandias]

Re: 6ed Transfer: Is It Just More Than An Aid Linked To Drain?

 

You're missing it. They're exponential. This creates a net gain that varies directly as the square. Every 5 points is a doubling. So by draining 3 power points from my opponent, there's a flat 1 in 216 chance that the end result from there will be that I gain 18 power points when the aid goes off assuming the numbers are equal. Now, in most games, given the way GM's regulate them, this pretty much equals instant defeat for whoever got drained. The average superhero game runs on the same parameters as it did 20 years ago. 10-12 die attacks, 20-25 point defenses, and SPD 4-6. Lose that many power points from something, especially a mind stat like EGO or INT, and the battle is over for you. (9- to take an action at EGO 0. 9- to not repeat the same action at INT 0) And the aid is WAY cheaper than the drain, because most players like simple math. 3d6 of drain is the AP equivalent of 5d6 of Aid. It's 60 active points, but it's broken. AID has always been ridiculous and far too cheap, in my opinion. What you're talking about is just flat out wrong. Having playtested this system for most of it's natural life and being a writer for it, I can tell you that your equation does NOT hold, in any way, shape, or form. The flaw in your argument is that Power Defense exists, really. I can drain ZERO from my opponent and still gain the benefits of the Aid, which is the dumbest thing out of the whole business. The system NEVER should have been balanced for Standard Effect. Or Standard Effect should have been 3.5 instead of 3.

 

You can't just look at what you think is balanced. You have to look at the empirical observation over time of how most people actually build things for convenience and simplicity.

 

This... was not my argument one bit. I actually agree with you on keeping the drain and aid values equal, but I was merely shooting down your reasoning. I was never arguing that abilities are exponential. That was the point of my argument actually. I was saying that "the conservation of Power Points" was a flawed concept, since they represented something that wasn't linear, so the linear transfer wouldn't hold true to this conservation.

 

In addition, I disagree with making transfer an Advantage. If you already have the tools to make the ability you want, why invent something new to do the same thing? If someone came up to me with something like that, I'd be way too concerned at how it could be munchkined, since that's the first thing that comes to my head. And the reason Drain is more expensive, is that you can incapacitate someone with drain, whereas aid is a Buff, which can make it easier to win a fight, but will not win it for you. Lastly, I'm not sure why you're bringing up the (also inherently unlikely) situation of draining 3 and aiding 18. Making both the same roll has nothing to do with how much variation there can be in the drain. There is just as much likelihood that someone will Drain 18 with the same or separate Drain and Aid rolls.

[torchwolf]

Re: 6ed Transfer: Is It Just More Than An Aid Linked To Drain?

 

"STUN Transfer":

 

Drain STUN w/ Unified Power (-¼).

 

[plus]

 

Aid STUN w/ Trigger (+1)... Linked (-½), Unified Power (-¼), Aid Self Only (-1).

 

This is the published 6E version of "Transfer".

However, as Balabanto points out, it doesn't behave exactly like previous versions:

I can drain ZERO from my opponent and still gain the benefits of the Aid

 

To make 6E "Transfer" behave that way, add the "Aid Rolled Limited To Points Affected By Drain (-1/4)", so you can't Aid more than Drain, especially if Power Defense reduces the Drain affecting the target.*

This is a specific case though - it only makes sense if the sfx of the compound power specifically requires it to work that way.

You'll also get differing effects if the Drain targets a "defensive" Power or Characteristic and the Aid does not, or vice versa (since Adjustment effects are halved against "defensive" Powers or Characteristics).

 

In any case, it's neither an Advantage nor a Limitation if you choose to roll die once for both, or separately. It's just quicker to roll once (and you'll avoid having to keep track of possibly different durations of the Drain and the Aid).

 

*This has been discussed on a previous thread, and I think everyone agreed on the above Limitation and the value of it, if not the exact phrasing.

[Mister E]

Re: 6ed Transfer: Is It Just More Than An Aid Linked To Drain?

 

imho, Drain w/ Transfer (+1/2) is like Absorption w/ As A Defense (+1/2).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6ed Transfer: Is It Just More Than An Aid Linked To Drain?

 

In my view, we would likely never have had a separate Transfer power if 1e Champions had included Drain and Aid, rather than Drain and Transfer.

[Balabanto]

Re: 6ed Transfer: Is It Just More Than An Aid Linked To Drain?

 

In my view, it's still necessary, because Power Defense is not purchased in most games with any degree of commonality. If Power Defense was really, really common, then Aid becomes a lot more useful. But...Power Defense is kinda rare in most games. So transfer and drain become way more useful, because when you amplify yourself, they are taking a similar hit.

 

The most powerful thing in any game system isn't what you can do with your math.

 

The most powerful thing in any game system is action denial. And that's why I'd rather have Transfer than Drain + Aid, because Drain + Aid=More Action Denial Plus a Boost for your side.

[Zephrosyne]

Re: 6ed Transfer: Is It Just More Than An Aid Linked To Drain?

 

I have a question since we are on the subject of Transfer. What is the mechanical reason for needing Trigger? They are already Linked, so don't both Aid and Drain go off at the same time? Is the Trigger Advantage necessary because Aid and Drain affect two different targets (Aid being the character and Drain being the victim)? Just wondering. I re-read Linked and Trigger and could not really come up with the reason on my own. Thanks.

[steriaca]

Re: 6ed Transfer: Is It Just More Than An Aid Linked To Drain?

 

Humm...you know you can 'Meta' Transfer buy buying it this way:

 

Transfer: 1d6 Drain, Dice Shair (+0 Advantage), Unified Power (-1/4): Active Points: 10. Real Points: 8. AND 1d6 Aid, Dice Shair (+0 Advantage), Trigered (Linked Power Has To Activate, +1), Linked (to Drain, +1/2), Unified Power (-1/4), Aid Points Limited To Points Drained (-1/4). Active Points: +15 Real Points: 10. Total Cost Per Dice: 18 points.

 

Dice Shair is an 'advantage' which alowes you to use both effects with the same dice. Note that the way Transfer is built as a meta power still makes the Drain ranged and the Aid not ranged, but it can be transfered to others. I would proably eather add Range to one or No Range to one as the prime power myself (but I was just creating the base power as something, not the final power).

 

Now, I got to think about my Boon/Destroy advantage for Aid and Drain.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: 6ed Transfer: Is It Just More Than An Aid Linked To Drain?

 

Transfer stays in my games. Of course that makes sense, considering that I'm still playing 5th edition and have yet to make the move to 6th. As it is, I don't have a problem adding a +1/2 Advantage to Drain turning it into a Transfer, because Active Point wise, it's the same as the old Transfer (15pts per D6)

 

And what's this about Drain being ranged now?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6ed Transfer: Is It Just More Than An Aid Linked To Drain?

 

I disliked the neutering of Transfer in 5e. It's a Drain and an Aid combined, but I have to buy separate advantages to increase the duration or broaden the effect of both the Drain and the Aid? I'm paying for the advantage on both components, not on just one! It would have been cheaper to buy a linked Drain and Aid by the time we apply the relevant limitations.

[Christopher]

Re: 6ed Transfer: Is It Just More Than An Aid Linked To Drain?

 

I asked Steve about the old power Transfer and he refered me to pages in a book I can't get yet (I only have the Basic Rulebook and APG1). So' date=' I take it that 'Transfer' (the special effect) is more than using Linked the power Drain for the power Aid, right? What else do I need (like what advantage or limitation do I need to use one dice roll for both powers like the original power)?[/quote']

That is effectively it. There is anotehr writeup in Hero System Martial Arts (HSMA), that uses a different approach...

 

I would declare it as a variant of the Standard Effect rule

That is exaclty how it was done with a Transfer in HSMA. Standart Effect: Whatever is rolled on the Drain.

 

I have a question since we are on the subject of Transfer. What is the mechanical reason for needing Trigger? They are already Linked' date=' so don't both Aid and Drain go off at the same time? Is the Trigger Advantage necessary because Aid and Drain affect two different targets (Aid being the character and Drain being the victim)? Just wondering. I re-read Linked and Trigger and could not really come up with the reason on my own. Thanks.[/quote']

Drain is an Attack Action. Aid is an Attack Action. And you can't do two attack actions in teh same phase. So the only way is to make the Aid Triggered (0-phase).

You could propably fake this with Multiattack (attack your target with the Drain and yourself with the Aid), but that wouldn't be effectvie (you would be on 1/2 DCV and suffer - to your attack).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6ed Transfer: Is It Just More Than An Aid Linked To Drain?

 

Drain is an Attack Action. Aid is an Attack Action. And you can't do two attack actions in teh same phase. So the only way is to make the Aid Triggered (0-phase).

You could propably fake this with Multiattack (attack your target with the Drain and yourself with the Aid), but that wouldn't be effectvie (you would be on 1/2 DCV and suffer - to your attack).

 

I believe it is accepted as a Multiple Power Attack, but the fact there are two separate targets makes that an exception to the usual requirements for such attacks.

[Christopher]

Re: 6ed Transfer: Is It Just More Than An Aid Linked To Drain?

 

I believe it is accepted as a Multiple Power Attack' date=' but the fact there are two separate targets makes that an exception to the usual requirements for such attacks.[/quote']

Do you mean combined Attack or Multiple Attack here?

Because Multiple Attack has no propblem being targeted at "multilpe Targets" and it doesn't even suffers an additional penalty for it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6ed Transfer: Is It Just More Than An Aid Linked To Drain?

 

Do you mean combined Attack or Multiple Attack here?

Because Multiple Attack has no propblem being targeted at "multilpe Targets" and it doesn't even suffers an additional penalty for it.

 

I mean a Multiple Power Attack - a single attack roll against a single target using multiple attack powers. Unlike Multiple Attack, it does not suffer from OCV or DCV penalties. I suspect 6e changed the term to "combined attack" - apologies for the outdated nomenclature.

 

Looking at the Stun Transfer in the book, the Aid incorporates a Trigger to be book legal

 

Drain STUN 3d6 (30 Active Points); Unified Power (-¼) (total cost: 24 points) plus Aid STUN 3d6, Trigger (when character uses Drain, activating Trigger takes no

time, Trigger immediately automatically resets; +1) (36 Active Points); Linked (-½), Unified Power (-¼), Only Aid Self (-1) (total cost: 13 points). Total cost: 37 points.

 

Comparing this to 3d6 Transfer in 5e, the 5e version cost 45 points, but only cost 1.5 END per 1d6. This costs 2.2 END per 1d6 (ignoring rounding in both cases, as it will vary with the number of dice). Hmmm...

 

Drain STUN 3d6 (30 Active Points); Unified Power (-¼), 1.5x END (-1/4 - every full multiple being -1/2) (total cost: 20 points) plus Aid STUN 3d6, Trigger (when character uses Drain, activating Trigger takes no time, Trigger immediately automatically resets; +1, No END Cost; +1/2; (45 Active Points); Linked (-½), Unified Power (-¼), Only Aid Self (-1) (total cost: 16 points). Total cost: 36 points.

 

Now it costs 1.5 END per 1d6 again. Unlike the 5e version, even when Aid is max'ed out, the drain will still function. Advantages like increased recovery time or multiple abilities to the full AP (ie both Aid and Drain) will enhance both the Aid and Drain aspects.

 

 

It also removes the "what if it's AoE" question - only the Drain would be AoE.

 

The Aid should have a further limitation, capped at points Drained. Even going with the "standard effect meaning equal die rolls" which seems a reasonable +0 to me, the Aid will still work even if my target has 20 Power Defense. Unless Power Defense is pretty common in the game, -1/4 should suffice, saving 1 point per 3d6.

 

More complicated on the character sheet, certainly, but it seems a significant improvement over the much neutered 5e version.

[Mister E]

Re: 6ed Transfer: Is It Just More Than An Aid Linked To Drain?

 

Looking at the Stun Transfer in the book' date=' the Aid incorporates a Trigger to be book legal[/quote']

 

Is this because there are two targets?

 

It also removes the "what if it's AoE" question - only the Drain would be AoE.

 

Otherwise the AoE of a Transfer would need to be made explicate in the AoE advantage itself. Is that right?

 

If AoE drain effects (rather than AoE aid effects) were the standard for Transfer, then AoE aid effects would require specification by process of elimination. =P

 

Drain STUN 3d6 (30 Active Points); Unified Power (-¼) (total cost: 24 points) plus Aid STUN 3d6, Trigger (when character uses Drain, activating Trigger takes no

time, Trigger immediately automatically resets; +1) (36 Active Points); Linked (-½), Unified Power (-¼), Only Aid Self (-1) (total cost: 13 points). Total cost: 37 points.

 

[based on the above build for continuity]:

 

How would you build a transfer that healed you when you were wounded & aided you when you were at full health?

 

Isn't that a Drain unified w/ a linked Aid(or)Heal, no END cost, self-only, multipower framework... that is triggered by the Drain? Or would that be illegal?

 

 

~ Mister E ("Come in 6evol1. 6evol1 do you read me? This is Mr. E speaking. 6evol1 are you there? Hello? 6evol1?")

[Christopher]

Re: 6ed Transfer: Is It Just More Than An Aid Linked To Drain?

 

Is this because there are two targets?

No, it's beacuse both Drain and Aid require an Attack Action. Only with trigger you can use Aid in the same phase/action you use Drain.

 

How would you build a transfer that healed you when you were wounded & aided you when you were at full health?

We can built either a Heal or Aid (Body and Stun)*. Since both Aid and Heal are considered attack actions, the built is effectively the same. Of course the limitation to the Drain Roll could be more relevant, consdiering how healing effects stack. And of course the AP/Die Ratio for healing is worser than for Aid.

 

*unless you do somethign wierd like making a Aid/heal Multipower and put all the advantages and limitations of the Aid Part on the Multipower as whole.

[Mister E]

Re: 6ed Transfer: Is It Just More Than An Aid Linked To Drain?

 

No' date=' it's beacuse both Drain and Aid require an Attack Action. Only with trigger you can use Aid in the same phase/action you use Drain.[/quote']

 

I'm not trying to be contrary... but if the target of both powers is the same then you can do a multiple power attack with one action.

 

Whereas if "self" is the target for the Aid, no multiple power attack is possible, & Trigger is needed to do it with one action. Otherwise it takes two actions.

 

We can built either a Heal or Aid (Body and Stun)*. Since both Aid and Heal are considered attack actions, the built is effectively the same. Of course the limitation to the Drain Roll could be more relevant, consdiering how healing effects stack. And of course the AP/Die Ratio for healing is worser than for Aid.

 

*unless you do somethign wierd like making a Aid/heal Multipower and put all the advantages and limitations of the Aid Part on the Multipower as whole.

 

Awesome. =)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6ed Transfer: Is It Just More Than An Aid Linked To Drain?

 

Is this because there are two targets?

 

Yup - with one target, Combined Attack. But two would technically require a Multiple Attack, with all the penalties that entails.

 

Otherwise the AoE of a Transfer would need to be made explicate in the AoE advantage itself. Is that right?

 

Well, it could mean we add Aid together for all the Drained targets. It could mean you get the highest, or average, or lowest, drained in the area. I believe the FAQ ruled that you divided points of effect between all the targets in the area, which made AOE Transfer a pretty poor point investment.

 

How would you build a transfer that healed you when you were wounded & aided you when you were at full health?

 

Isn't that a Drain unified w/ a linked Aid(or)Heal, no END cost, self-only, multipower framework... that is triggered by the Drain? Or would that be illegal?

 

I think you'd have to buy the Aid and Heal separately, probably with Lockout to show that only one works at a time. You could always have both work at the same time, but put a limitation on the Aid that it is reduced by points healed. You'd likely want Reduced Re-Use on the Heal as well.

[Mister E]

Re: 6ed Transfer: Is It Just More Than An Aid Linked To Drain?

 

Yup - with one target' date=' Combined Attack. But two would technically require a Multiple Attack, with all the penalties that entails.[/quote']

 

Clarified.

 

Well' date=' it could mean we add Aid together for all the Drained targets. It could mean you get the highest, or average, or lowest, drained in the area. I believe the FAQ ruled that you divided points of effect between all the targets in the area, which made AOE Transfer a pretty poor point investment.[/quote']

 

Ouch.

 

I think you'd have to buy the Aid and Heal separately' date=' probably with Lockout to show that only one works at a time. You could always have both work at the same time, but put a limitation on the Aid that it is reduced by points healed. You'd likely want Reduced Re-Use on the Heal as well.[/quote']

 

I keep forgetting about Lockout!