No Range/Overhauling Damage

[Sean Waters]

Here is a thought. Should we get rid of ranged powers?

 

 

I mean, you get whatyou pay for and it is true that ranged powers include range(obviously) and I suppose that it makes sense that the more you payfor the more you get BUT having some powers with range and somepowers without range does not make as much sense as it used to. Areaof Effect has already gone that way (you now buy the specific areayou want and it is not dependent on the active points any more). Yesthat is a little different as that is a modifier but, well, thereused to be powers that were AoE – Flash, for example, and that hasbeen stripped back in the interests of creating a batter tool box.

 

 

Imagine removing rangeas a part of a power and replacing it with a modifier. I think thereare a number of potential advantages. Have a look at the tablebelow, which is a suggested starting point, assuming that a range of1 metre is adjacent and that every +1/4 increases the range by afactor of 8.

 

 

[TABLE=width: 100%]

[TR]

[TD=width: 17%] Modifier

[/TD]

[TD=width: 83%] Effect

[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=width: 17%] +1/4

[/TD]

[TD=width: 83%] You can use the power at a range of up to 8 metres (short range)

[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=width: 17%] +1/2

[/TD]

[TD=width: 83%] You can use the power at a range of up to 64 metres (medium range)

[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=width: 17%] +3/4

[/TD]

[TD=width: 83%] You can use the power at a range of up to 512 metres (long range)

[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=width: 17%] +1

[/TD]

[TD=width: 83%] You can use the power at a range of up to 4096 metres (extreme range)

[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=width: 17%] Additional +1/4

[/TD]

[TD=width: 83%] Range x8 ( range)

[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

 

 

One of the mostfundamental problems with Hero is that the costing of damaging powersdoes not make a lot of sense. This is an old discussion, but bearwith me whilst I review it.

 

 

3d6 Blast does 3DCsnormal damage at range for 15 points

3d6 HtH Attack does3DCs normal damage for 12 points (and you can add Strength damage)

 

 

BUT

 

 

1d6 Killing Attack(Ranged) does 3DCs of killing damage at range for 15 points

1d6 Killing Attack(HtH) does 3 DCs of killing attack for 15 points (and you can addStrength damage)

 

 

Now there is no logicalreason why the ability to attack at range and the ability to addstrength damage should be costed differently for normal and killingattacks. The actual reason is because 15 points of Strength alsogive you 3DCs of normal damage and, if 3d6 HtH Attack cost the sameas 15 Strength no one but the die-hard character modellers would buyit.

 

 

Looking at the 'KillingAttack' model, and bearing in mind that adding or subtracting Rangeis a ½ modifier, what wehave is 10 points for 3DCs of damage plus either Range or STR Adds.

 

 

That would mean thatthe ability to cause 3DCs damage at no range and without adding STRcosts 10 points.

 

 

Now the trouble withthat is break-down cost. 1DC of damage would cost 3 1/3 points,which has rounding issues., but that is not too much of a problem tomy mind: work it like this:

 

 

1 point of damage: 1point

½DC of damage: 2 points

1DC of damage: 4 points

2 DCs of damage: 7points

3 DCs of damage: 10points

 

 

NB this applies to bothnormal and killing damage and, with a little tinkering, to otherpowers which do not currently have a base “5 points per d6” cost.

 

 

You buy damage to theamount you want using the highest number of DCs you can, so, forexample, 10DC of damage is 3x3DC plus 1DC, which costs 34 points.

 

 

What you get for thatis the ability to cause 10DC damage to an opponent at no range andyou can not add anything for STR. Want to hit at range? Use thetable above. 10DC at up to 64 metres range will cost 34 x (1 + ½)= 51 active and real points. OK, slightly more than 10d6 Blast now(and, of course 10d6 Blast has a 200 metre range), but I can livewith that for the added control AND modifiers are cheaper (a 10d6AVAD AON will cost you 68 points, or 85 points at range). It alsomeans that you can do 18DCs of damage under a 60 active point cap, ifyou use one.

 

 

Want to add STR damage? Well...

 

 

There are two ways ofdealing with that. The (probably) unpopular one that I like would beto simply say 'No'. Strength can not be used to do damage at all, atleast not directly. You want your 20 STR to do 4d6 damage? Thatwill be 14 points, please, or 16 if you want to be able to throwobject of opportunity at range for up to 4d6 damage too, and if youwant to be able to add STR damage to other attacks then you need a+1/2 modifier for a total cost of 23 points (making your 20 STR cost43 points in total.

 

 

The (probably) morepopular one is to simply say “that will be a +1/2 advantage then”. I would prefer to increase the cost of STR to 2 per point if we wentthis way, because I am a sore loser.

 

 

Now I know this isnever actually going to happen as it would be too much of a jolt tothe system, and H7 is a ways off yet, but it has to be worth lookingat and thinking about. These are legacy problems that we are goingto have to deal with at some point if we are going to make Heroperfect. OK, one man's perfect is another woman's reality dysfunction, and I know that this will make things (slightly) more complicated at the build stage*, but it makes sense. Doesn't it?

 

 

Thoughts?

 

*And I have thoughts on that too, which would remove the problem.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: No Range/Overhauling Damage

 

The STR Min Limitation might trigger some additional thoughts. I don't have any analysis at the moment to offer, though.

[Christopher]

Re: No Range/Overhauling Damage

 

I generally agree that HA/Blast and HKA/RKA could use some work. For example it is impossible to built a Blast that Adds Strenght, the same way you can built a throwable HKA.

But I am uncertain about making Ranged an Advantage. I think it could make ranged powers in superhuman games a lot less usefull and thus limit blaster times unfairly relative to Martial Artists/Bricks.

[Beast]

Re: No Range/Overhauling Damage

 

the difference I see is that HA only does damage

Str does damage and it both also holds(grab) and lifts

and there is the balance

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: No Range/Overhauling Damage

 

Actually, a lot of the formerly "no range" powers gained range in the 6e revamp.

 

I'd be more inclined to get rid of HKA entirely, and leave only "Killing Attack", which has range as a default. You want Claws? Well, that's Killing Attack, No Range. You want to add 2d6 for your 30 STR? No problem - buy 2 more d6 of HKA, and limit them with Unified Power with STR (if your STR goes down, so do your bonus KA dice) and perhaps a Lockout (you can't use your STR for other things at the same time).

 

That leaves Hand Attack to deal with. How about we build this as limited STR? For -1/4, your STR enhances a broad group of HTH attacks (all martial maneuvers, for example, at 4 points per +1 DC - sounds familiar somehow!). For -1/2, it only enhances direct damage (again, pretty familiar). Higher limitations could apply if it's only to maintain a Grab, or some equally limited purpose.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: No Range/Overhauling Damage

 

I'd be more inclined to get rid of HKA entirely' date=' and leave only "Killing Attack", which has range as a default. You want Claws? Well, that's Killing Attack, No Range. You want to add 2d6 for your 30 STR? No problem - buy 2 more d6 of HKA, and limit them with Unified Power with STR (if your STR goes down, so do your bonus KA dice) and perhaps a Lockout (you can't use your STR for other things at the same time).[/quote']

 

Except that Unified Power is bidirectional. This would also be saying that if your bonus KA dice go down, so does your STR. (And STR would also take the Unified Power Limitation.)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: No Range/Overhauling Damage

 

Except that Unified Power is bidirectional. This would also be saying that if your bonus KA dice go down' date=' so does your STR. (And STR would also take the Unified Power Limitation.)[/quote']

 

That's an issue I have with Unified Power. Why not allow this to be put on the KA alone, so the STR is not limited? [kofftoolboxkoff] We can always call the limitation "affected by negative adjustment powers at the same rate as STR", if desired., but that existing UP mechanic seems to fit so nicely.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: No Range/Overhauling Damage

 

That's an issue I have with Unified Power. Why not allow this to be put on the KA alone' date=' so the STR is not limited? [kofftoolboxkoff'] We can always call the limitation "affected by negative adjustment powers at the same rate as STR", if desired., but that existing UP mechanic seems to fit so nicely.

 

How would that differ (at least in this example) from the basic level of Linked? (Greater Power -- STR -- can be used by itself, but lesser Power -- KA bonus -- can only be used with the greater, and only in proportion to the greater.)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: No Range/Overhauling Damage

 

I'm not convinced Unified Power is all that different from Linked, actually. It seems like a variation in that regard. Both STR and the KA would presumably be the same power level (+2d6 KA to reflect adding the character's full 30 STR), however the KA would already have "no range" in my example, making it the lower point power.

 

Since the character not only can, but must, use STR in addition to the KA, he would be forced to make his KA (for, say, 4d6) plus a 6d6 Normal STR Punch as a Multiple Power Attack. I would envision the added 2d6 KA as replacing, not supplementing, that normal damage.

 

If STR is drained 15, would that mean only 1d6 KA is available (the planned result) or that the remaining 15 STR is 100% of the STR, so the full 2d6 Linked power works?

 

Draining a greater power doesn’t affect a character’s ability to use the lesser power at all' date=' and for purposes of determining proportionality you determine a power’s “full strength” based on its current (Adjusted) cost.[/quote']

 

So the full 2d6 KA add remains available, even if the STR is drained to, say, 5 points.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: No Range/Overhauling Damage

 

I guess I conceive of Unified Power differently. To me, Unified Power means you have a power (in the game world sense) that requires multiple Powers (in a game mechanics sense) to define it. So for example, Spider-Man's Clinging, Leaping, and Entangle are not Unified, even though they're all "spider powers," because the three Powers are not part of a single effect in the game-world sense. But his Entangle, Barrier, and Swinging are Unified, because they're all pieces of his overall "Webbing" power.

 

Since STR and Claws aren't the same small-p power, I don't conceive of the two being a Unified Power...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: No Range/Overhauling Damage

 

I guess I conceive of Unified Power differently. To me' date=' Unified Power means you have a power (in the game world sense) that requires multiple Powers (in a game mechanics sense) to define it. So for example, Spider-Man's Clinging, Leaping, and Entangle are not Unified, even though they're all "spider powers," because the three Powers are not part of a single effect in the game-world sense. But his Entangle, Barrier, and Swinging [b']are[/b] Unified, because they're all pieces of his overall "Webbing" power.

 

Since STR and Claws aren't the same small-p power, I don't conceive of the two being a Unified Power...

 

To me, the mechanics are names attached to a specific game effect, and your model applies a specific SFX to the mechanic. The name "unified power" connotes your interpretation, so perhaps it is a poor name (just as Seduction and Energy Blast were poor names modified in 6e).

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: No Range/Overhauling Damage

 

Agree to disagree.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: No Range/Overhauling Damage

 

Too complicated.

 

I agree that one unified Normal Damage attack power and one unified Killing Damage attack power could exist with all other aspects being modifiers. However I think the base should be 5 points per damage class. I've always thought the fact that hand attack was costed less than 5pts per DC was always an oversight that needed fixing.

 

Please note that adding the Ranged advantage (+1/2) to an attack power, then adding the Str does not add limitation (-1/2) brings it back down to 5pts per D6/DC. The only snafu is the increase in the active cost of Ranged attacks vs melee attacks for maximum active point caps.

[phoenix240]

Re: No Range/Overhauling Damage

 

I see Unified Power like Derek does particularly since its replaces Elemental Control for the most part. Unified Powers, IMO, represent one ability that needs multiple Powers to to simulate in game terms, essentially what would be an EC in 5th terms like "I control the weather." or "I can manipulate ambient light". "I have claws." might give HKA, Clinging and Tunneling as Unified Powers but the character's Strength wouldn't be tied into the ability. Again, IMO.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: No Range/Overhauling Damage

 

I agree that one unified Normal Damage attack power and one unified Killing Damage attack power could exist with all other aspects being modifiers. However I think the base should be 5 points per damage class. I've always thought the fact that hand attack was costed less than 5pts per DC was always an oversight that needed fixing.[/qupte]

 

If we accept Range is advantageous, then either "no range" must cost less than 5 per DC or Ranged must cost more.

 

Please note that adding the Ranged advantage (+1/2) to an attack power' date=' then adding the Str does not add limitation (-1/2) brings it back down to 5pts per D6/DC. The only snafu is the increase in the active cost of Ranged attacks vs melee attacks for maximum active point caps.[/quote']

 

Note that STR Does not Add carries a variable cost for a fixed limitation. If I have a 1d6 HKA and a 60 STR, taking STR Does Not Add saves 5 points and I lose 12 DC's. If I have a 4d6 HKA and a 10 STR, taking STR Does Not Add saves 20 points and I lose 2 DC's. How is that balanced?

 

The AP issue is resolved if we start with the premise that attack powers are ranged, so removing their range is a limitation. STR costs 5 points per 1d6, so if we start with the premise that this represents 1 DC and buy extra damage for HTH attacks as limited STR, we again have 5 AP per DC.

[Beast]

Re: No Range/Overhauling Damage

 

Hugh

Str also does lifting and holding which Blast and RKA's do not do

So you would need to add limitations if you want to break it down so not ever Blaster was also Brick

Having Str,HKA,Blast, and RKA as 4 powers makes it so much easier to build what you want with out having to reinvent the wheel

 

I agree that one unified Normal Damage attack power and one unified Killing Damage attack power could exist with all other aspects being modifiers. However I think the base should be 5 points per damage class. I've always thought the fact that hand attack was costed less than 5pts per DC was always an oversight that needed fixing.[/qupte]

 

If we accept Range is advantageous, then either "no range" must cost less than 5 per DC or Ranged must cost more.

 

 

 

Note that STR Does not Add carries a variable cost for a fixed limitation. If I have a 1d6 HKA and a 60 STR, taking STR Does Not Add saves 5 points and I lose 12 DC's. If I have a 4d6 HKA and a 10 STR, taking STR Does Not Add saves 20 points and I lose 2 DC's. How is that balanced?

 

The AP issue is resolved if we start with the premise that attack powers are ranged, so removing their range is a limitation. STR costs 5 points per 1d6, so if we start with the premise that this represents 1 DC and buy extra damage for HTH attacks as limited STR, we again have 5 AP per DC.

[Christopher]

Re: No Range/Overhauling Damage

 

Please note that adding the Ranged advantage (+1/2) to an attack power' date=' then adding the Str does not add limitation (-1/2) brings it back down to 5pts per D6/DC. The only snafu is the increase in the active cost of Ranged attacks vs melee attacks for maximum active point caps.[/quote']

Frankly I think all that Steve Long did when craeting powers is taking another power, add an advantage, apply a limitation and take the Real Cost of that construct as Base Points for his new power. I see this clearly in:

5E Forcefield: 1 Point of Defense, Resistant (+1/2), Cost Endurance to Maintain (-1/2) = 1 point Real cost = 1 point base cost for Forcefield Power.

Density Increase: 5 STR, -1m Knockback, +1 PD, +1 ED = 8 Base Cost; Cost Endurance to Maintain (-1/2), Weightincrease (-1/4) = 5 Real Cost.

HKA from RKA (or vice versa): HKA, Ranged (+1/2), No STR Advantage (-1/2) or RKA, Adds STR (+1/2), No Range (-1/2)

Resistant Protection (or Armor): Defense, Resistant (+1/2)

 

Of course making new powers that way has at least one effect more than just making them more AP-efficient: They create a completely different target for Adjustment Powers.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: No Range/Overhauling Damage

 

Hugh

Str also does lifting and holding which Blast and RKA's do not do

So you would need to add limitations if you want to break it down so not ever Blaster was also Brick

Having Str,HKA,Blast, and RKA as 4 powers makes it so much easier to build what you want with out having to reinvent the wheel

 

And Blasts and RKA's can be Spread to sacrifice damage for either OCV or the ability to hit multiple targets. Removal of the ability to Spread is generally a -1/4 limitation, so maybe "STR, only to enhance effects of combat maneuvers" also becomes -1/4 (we remove these ancillary effects, like lifting though not holding, which is already part of combat maneuvers), and "only for direct damage" stays -1/2 (a No Range Blast can still be spread and gets the same -1/2, I note).

 

Frankly I think all that Steve Long did when craeting powers is taking another power, add an advantage, apply a limitation and take the Real Cost of that construct as Base Points for his new power. I see this clearly in:

5E Forcefield: 1 Point of Defense, Resistant (+1/2), Cost Endurance to Maintain (-1/2) = 1 point Real cost = 1 point base cost for Forcefield Power.

Density Increase: 5 STR, -1m Knockback, +1 PD, +1 ED = 8 Base Cost; Cost Endurance to Maintain (-1/2), Weightincrease (-1/4) = 5 Real Cost.

HKA from RKA (or vice versa): HKA, Ranged (+1/2), No STR Advantage (-1/2) or RKA, Adds STR (+1/2), No Range (-1/2)

Resistant Protection (or Armor): Defense, Resistant (+1/2)

 

Steve didn't create any of those powers. All have existed, in one form or another, since 1st Ed. Now, in 1st Ed, Damage Resistance had a fixed cost (for 15 points, half your defenses were resistant and for 30 points they all were), Armor was, IIRC, 3 rDEF for 5 points and Force Field was 1 point per rDEF. Mind you, you had to spend +1/4 for each halving of END cost (and it started at AP/5), so a 0 END Force Field was extremely expensive. Over time, the costs have been harmonized - and rightly so, as they are just extra defenses with Resistant effects. The same mechanical result should carry the same cost.

 

HKA and RKA haven't changed much since 1e (in fact, the 6e changes put HKA back in its 1e model, since it was 2e that capped the damage added by STR - most 1e Bricks had a 1d6 KA to benefit from that unlimited adder). The material change is the Stun Multiple, so KA's are no longer KO Attacks.

 

Density Increase has been through tons of changes.

 

To me, though, the cost of these abilities should be comparable to building them in some other way. You get what you pay for.

[Christopher]

Re: No Range/Overhauling Damage

 

Steve didn't create any of those powers. All have existed' date=' in one form or another, since 1st Ed.[/quote']

But both 5E and 6E show clear sings of excalty the pricing I noticed. This might not have been the initial approach, but certainly the one for the last two Versions.

 

But I also missed the calculation for DI a litte:

5 STR (5), 1 PD, 1 ED, -2m Knockback; togehter 9 base Points. With Costs Endurance to Maintain (-1/2) and Weightincrease* (-1/2); 4 Real Cost

 

*This includes the side-effect of high weight, as well as the effect that your STR doesn't helps against Drain STR that much and that your wieght doesn't adds to shove resistance (becuase that effect is already in the extra KB-Res)

 

These Pre-Build Powers have the advantage that they are way more Active Point efficient. I noticed when I tried to build a character with Growth in a Multipower in 5E, where Growth is defined differently:

Having to buy the extra CON, PRE, Defenses, BODY, STUN and Run seperately makes such a build unfeasible for multipowers (even if you use figured characteristics).