Regeneration as a Defense

[Doc Samson]

I am not fishing for any particular type of response, this is just a this is just a random musing.

 

There have been many discussions over the years on how to build a regeneration or fast healing type power as a defense and I have never let go of the idea. Below is one possibility that may have some use in game.

 

In the past I have used the Gradual Effect (5E) Limitation on Recovery to spread a Phase 12 Recovery out over the following turn. For This was bad build because the limitation actually made REC more effective by allowing it to be used before you take damage and still mitigate some of the damage taken after the Recovery. 6E has done away with Gradual Effect but the Damage Over Time Advantage can be taken in its place. The last paragraph under Damage Over Time allows for the Advantage to be used on other powers (and mentions Healing which is what gave me the idea).

 

Here is an example build.

 

+X REC, 12 Increments, Damage Occurs Every Segment, Cost = 4.5 pts.

1 REC = 5 pts.

2 REC = 9 pts.

3 REC = 14 pts.

 

Unless the GM rules otherwise, this means that when you get your Phase 12 Recovery (combat begins on Segment 12), you will continue to Recover X number of END and STUN every Segment throughout the Turn. In conjunction with the Regeneration power and some other defenses, this could offer an alternative to spening a load of points on Resistant Protection or Resistant PD and ED if those builds don't fit your concept.

 

EDIT

 

Holy cow! I just saw the thread on regenerative shields that has a very similar concept. Oh well.

[Christopher]

Re: Regeneration as a Defense

 

Unless the GM rules otherwise' date=' this means that when you get your Phase 12 Recovery (combat begins on Segment 12), you will continue to Recover X number of END and STUN every Segment throughout the Turn. In conjunction with the Regeneration power and some other defenses, this could offer an alternative to spening a load of points on Resistant Protection or Resistant PD and ED if those builds don't fit your concept.[/quote']

I think trying to bring healing regeneration and recovery under a "per turn" rate causes a lot of problems.

I know it's a difference to most other systems where such things happen every phase (or the equivalent of a phase). Don't forget that you enemy should have a "window" to knock you out, having regeneration every phases or segment makes that troublesome. Plus you tend to forget it (happened in D&D all the time).

 

I find the Resistant Protection, not agaisnt First body build actually an feature of hero:

It gives you protection against normal attacks and killings attacks in general, but leaves you open for Special Attacks (Drains, NND's), Posioned Knifes or (autofire) KA's. And afaik Wolverine and other regeneration guys where usually depicted as being normally succeptible to drugs, taser hits and just too many automatc rifles.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Regeneration as a Defense

 

Well...there is Regeneration as an SFX, and then there is Regeneration as a Power.

 

I've built a lot of regeneration based characters over the years using both the power and simulating regeneration via other mechanisms like triggered aid, absorption, resistant defenses, and so forth, many of which are on my site but I don't have time to hunt them down right now as I'm "working from home".

 

 

However, I will point out that the APG offers options for per Phase and even per Segment Regeneration which if allowed are very nice and make some of the more unusual mechanisms of psedo-Regeneration completely unnecessary.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Regeneration as a Defense

 

Interesting comments you guys, thanks.

 

I think trying to bring healing regeneration and recovery under a "per turn" rate causes a lot of problems.

I know it's a difference to most other systems where such things happen every phase (or the equivalent of a phase). Don't forget that you enemy should have a "window" to knock you out, having regeneration every phases or segment makes that troublesome. Plus you tend to forget it (happened in D&D all the time).

 

I find the Resistant Protection, not agaisnt First body build actually an feature of hero:

It gives you protection against normal attacks and killings attacks in general, but leaves you open for Special Attacks (Drains, NND's), Posioned Knifes or (autofire) KA's. And afaik Wolverine and other regeneration guys where usually depicted as being normally succeptible to drugs, taser hits and just too many automatc rifles.

I may be wrong but I think Recoveries slow down after you are knocked out, so hopefully the build won't give the GM a headache as you can still be knocked out. Also, I think regenerators like the Hulk and Wolverine are typically immune to drugs and stuff like poison or alcohol.

 

Well...there is Regeneration as an SFX, and then there is Regeneration as a Power.

 

I've built a lot of regeneration based characters over the years using both the power and simulating regeneration via other mechanisms like triggered aid, absorption, resistant defenses, and so forth, many of which are on my site but I don't have time to hunt them down right now as I'm "working from home".

 

 

However, I will point out that the APG offers options for per Phase and even per Segment Regeneration which if allowed are very nice and make some of the more unusual mechanisms of psedo-Regeneration completely unnecessary.

I would agree that if the GM allows a STUN Regeneration that works more frequently than per Turn it may be a better build.

[CptPatriot]

Re: Regeneration as a Defense

 

The problem with using Gradual Effect with Recovery is that you aren't applying the REC over time to heal the STUN. It acts like you used all the REC at the point of use and spreads out the consequences of the REC over the time specified.

 

So, say you are SPD 4 and have 40 STUN, 30 END, & 8 REC bought with Gradual Effect over a Turn.

 

Phase 12, you are hit for 5 points of STUN & use 6 END.

 

Now, at post-segment 12, you get a Recovery.

Because you are only were down 5 Stun, that is all you are gonna get, even if you took more damage afterwards during the next turn.

On post-12 & 3, you get 2 Stun back, post-6, you get 1, & post-9, 0.

On post-12, 3 & 6, you get 2 Endurance back, post-9, 0.

 

Edit: That is part of the reason I didn't use it in the Regenerative Shield thread.

[Christopher]

Re: Regeneration as a Defense

 

I may be wrong but I think Recoveries slow down after you are knocked out' date=' so hopefully the build won't give the GM a headache as you can still be knocked out. Also, I think regenerators like the Hulk and Wolverine are typically immune to drugs and stuff like poison or alcohol.[/quote']

I checked wikipedia:

In addition to accelerated healing of physical traumas, Wolverine's healing factor makes him extraordinarily resistant to diseases, drugs, and toxins. However, he can still suffer the immediate effects of such substances in massive quantities; he has been shown to become intoxicated after significant amounts of alcohol,^[52] and has been incapacitated on several occasions with large amounts of powerful drugs and poisons;^[53] S.H.I.E.L.D. once managed to keep Wolverine anesthetized by constantly pumping eighty milliliters of anesthetic a minute into his system.^[54]

That would make Regeneration for stun indeed more intersting, especially at it is not hindered by being deep K.O. But i don't think he needs much, 1 STUN/Turn already means 5 STUN/Minute. Togehter with his normal Recovery, this should cover an average damage of 7 STUN/minute (2d6).

The "per segment" regneration, would mean 60 STUN per minute (12 per Turn, don't forget Recovery), enough to counter around 17D6 of Stun/Minute (59,5 STUN average).

 

But I have been thinking about a Limittion for Life Support:

-1/2 Retroactive effect. It's for a multiform character. While the base form wasn't immune to Dieseases or Drugs and suffered the effects. His Alternate Form immune was and transforming negated all the effect the drugs had on him so far (all stun, drain, whatever). It wouldn't affect other stun (from hits).

I think just giving him "Life Support, Only X Effects per turn" or "Life Support, extra phase" (that the time his body needs to "clean" the drug out of his system) would be a lot easier.

[Escafarc]

Re: Regeneration as a Defense

 

In 5E I use to use the Gradual Effect Limitation on LS to get the "Wolverine/Highlander" type of immunity to poisons and what not along with Regeneration. I haven't redone it for 6E yet so I don't know what I'll use now that that Limitation is gone.

[Christopher]

Re: Regeneration as a Defense

 

Gradual Effect is Absorbed into Damage Over time with the "Defenses apply once" option (if it's not an NND).

Example (Sleep poision):

5E: 6d6 EB, NND (LS Immunity; +1), Gradual effect (6 Minutes; -3/4); 60 AP, 34 Real Cost

6E: 1d6 Blast, AVAD (NND, LS:Immunity; +1), Damage over Time (6 Damage Increments a 1 Minute; +1.5); 17 AP, 17 Real Cost

 

As for applying Gradual Effect to anything defensive, I would propably consider that a variant of Extra Time (wich Gradual Effect is propably based on).

[Christopher]

Re: Regeneration as a Defense

 

Extra Time and special cases:

"At the GM’s discretion, characters can also purchase Extra Time for powers that take a longer than normal time to affect the target. For example, many poisons have an “onset time” — a delay between when they’re administered and when they begin to affect the victim. Extra Time can represent this delay, rather than a delay in activating or using the power."

See no reason why that can't apply to your LS: Immunity to All Poisions.

 

APG I 144 also has Delayed Use (basically a cooldown), wich starts at -1/4 for 1 extra Phase and then goes up the time chart.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Regeneration as a Defense

 

The problem with using Gradual Effect with Recovery is that you aren't applying the REC over time to heal the STUN. It acts like you used all the REC at the point of use and spreads out the consequences of the REC over the time specified.

 

So, say you are SPD 4 and have 40 STUN, 30 END, & 8 REC bought with Gradual Effect over a Turn.

 

Phase 12, you are hit for 5 points of STUN & use 6 END.

 

Now, at post-segment 12, you get a Recovery.

Because you are only were down 5 Stun, that is all you are gonna get, even if you took more damage afterwards during the next turn.

On post-12 & 3, you get 2 Stun back, post-6, you get 1, & post-9, 0.

On post-12, 3 & 6, you get 2 Endurance back, post-9, 0.

 

Edit: That is part of the reason I didn't use it in the Regenerative Shield thread.

Gradual Effect is Absorbed into Damage Over time with the "Defenses apply once" option (if it's not an NND).

Example (Sleep poision):

5E: 6d6 EB, NND (LS Immunity; +1), Gradual effect (6 Minutes; -3/4); 60 AP, 34 Real Cost

6E: 1d6 Blast, AVAD (NND, LS:Immunity; +1), Damage over Time (6 Damage Increments a 1 Minute; +1.5); 17 AP, 17 Real Cost

 

As for applying Gradual Effect to anything defensive, I would propably consider that a variant of Extra Time (wich Gradual Effect is propably based on).

 

Good points but I think this is why this build would work as intended with Damage Over Time. Gradual Effect spreads out one Recovery while DOT applies it over and over. In this case you are Phase 12 Recovering (a small amount) over and over throughout the Turn.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Regeneration as a Defense

 

For ease of use, you can just buy extra defenses defined as instant healing. Not the best model perhaps, but it is simple.

 

For a little more realism, you could buy a triggered Healing. That isn't going to allow the character to recover from major wounds since there is a max effect on Heal, but you could supplement it with regular Regeneration for BODY and/or an Aid to REC so that the post-12 recovery has more impact.

 

For a fast rejuventation of STUN and END, you could buy extra SPD, only for recoveries and defensive actions. This allows the character to get extra recoveries in the middle of a turn, unless they are attacked in which case they aren't sitting ducks as they can still block or dodge. I used this for a villain once that recovered too fast for the heroes to take him down until they realized they could keep him from bouncing back by alternating the phases they attacked on so that he didn't get any bonus recoveries in the middle of the turn.

[CptPatriot]

Re: Regeneration as a Defense

 

Good points but I think this is why this build would work as intended with Damage Over Time. Gradual Effect spreads out one Recovery while DOT applies it over and over. In this case you are Phase 12 Recovering (a small amount) over and over throughout the Turn.

But

1. REC doesn't automatically heal a target so you need to take a Recovery anyway and
   
2. REC is persistent so what benefit do you get by buying a stat with DOT?
   

[Christopher]

Re: Regeneration as a Defense

 

Good points but I think this is why this build would work as intended with Damage Over Time. Gradual Effect spreads out one Recovery while DOT applies it over and over. In this case you are Phase 12 Recovering (a small amount) over and over throughout the Turn.

I generally doubt the validity of either DOT or Garadual Effect for any non-damaging powers.

 

For a fast rejuventation of STUN and END' date=' you could buy extra SPD, only for recoveries and defensive actions. This allows the character to get extra recoveries in the middle of a turn, unless they are attacked in which case they aren't sitting ducks as they can still block or dodge.[/quote']

That is a bad tactic. while you recover you are a sitting duck (halvend DCV and called shot penalties) and you can't even abort if you are attacked.

 

I once though about giving a character a short duration (1 Phase) Desolidification so he could recover "in the middle of a fight". But even at 0 END activating that and recovering in the same phase is near impossible by the rules. recovering is what you only do if you started your phase behidn cover.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Regeneration as a Defense

 

But

1. REC doesn't automatically heal a target so you need to take a Recovery anyway and
   
2. REC is persistent so what benefit do you get by buying a stat with DOT?
   

It's the Phase 12 Recovery that is automatic. The Advantage allows the stat to be used repeatedly over a time period.

 

I generally doubt the validity of either DOT or Garadual Effect for any non-damaging powers.

The book gives an example of this type of use. From 6e1p331, "Although this Power Modifier’s called Damage Over Time because the vast majority of its uses involve attacks, you can think of it as Effect Over Time and apply it to other types of powers with the GM’s permission. For example, a character could apply it to Healing to create a “healing injuries over time” power (assuming the GM were willing to waive Healing’s rule about repeated use)."

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Regeneration as a Defense

 

That is a bad tactic. while you recover you are a sitting duck (halvend DCV and called shot penalties) and you can't even abort if you are attacked.

 

I once though about giving a character a short duration (1 Phase) Desolidification so he could recover "in the middle of a fight". But even at 0 END activating that and recovering in the same phase is near impossible by the rules. recovering is what you only do if you started your phase behidn cover.

 

The rules state that you can't abort to a Recovery, and you can't abandon a declared Recovery to take another action unless the GM permits. In games I have played, the GM has generally permitted aborting to defensive actions after a Recovery has been declared, but the character doesn't get the Recovery then of course. But that is a GM call, so the extra SPD option is only viable if the GM is willing.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Regeneration as a Defense

 

Back when Steve Perrin was posting updated versions of his classic VOICE of Doom villains as drawn from his campaign to these forums, he presented an interesting version of "fast healing" SFX as Damage Reduction for Lung Hung. The character had Damage Reduction with a -1/2 Limitation, "Figure Death/Stun First." In other words, the total damage that Lung Hung took after applying PD or ED was used to determine if he was Stunned, Knocked Out, or killed by that attack; then the actual amount of STUN or BODY he lost was reduced as per the DR, reflecting how quickly he "healed" from it.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Regeneration as a Defense

 

Back when Steve Perrin was posting updated versions of his classic VOICE of Doom villains as drawn from his campaign to these forums' date=' he presented an interesting version of "fast healing" SFX as Damage Reduction for Lung Hung. The character had Damage Reduction with a -1/2 Limitation, "Figure Death/Stun First." In other words, the total damage that Lung Hung took after applying PD or ED was used to determine if he was Stunned, Knocked Out, or killed by that attack; then the actual amount of STUN or BODY he lost was reduced as per the DR, reflecting how quickly he "healed" from it.[/quote']

 

I think that is a cool build, thank you.

 

More random thoughts. We have a sort of an unwritten house rule that if power build says that it requires special permission from the GM, such as ignoring the limit on repeated Healing, we typically don't allow it player builds. For that reason we have avoided much of the APG content as it often implements a proprietary change of that specific use of the power. We try to keep things simple and often ask each other, if you brought that build to a con, do you think a GM you never met would allow it? This is why I try to search for creative builds using what the core books have already defined. I think I have failed at this endeavor in this thread

 

The base game already has a great mechanic for a regeneration type defense in the form of the Recovery statistic. For example, when I have built Hulk and Wolverine homages for players in my game, I usually give them a high REC in addition to some level of Regeneration to simulate fast healing. The problem that arises involves characters that already have decent amount of defense (such as adamantium bones or bullet proof skin). You can quickly hit a point with REC where the character becomes very difficult to put down in combats that last longer than a turn.

 

My search for alternative defenses continues.

[Matt the Bruins]

Re: Regeneration as a Defense

 

I've long viewed Damage Reduction applied to lycanthropes as having the special effect of their quick-healing powers helping them recover from less severe damage. It's not that they're physically harder to hurt than their basic defenses would indicate, they just shrug off much of the effect as the wounds regenerate almost instantaneously.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Regeneration as a Defense

 

You can do much the same with normal defences. After all, until it got redacted, The Hulk always seemed like he was virtually indestructible. Now that is explained as being 'super regeneration'.

[CptPatriot]

Re: Regeneration as a Defense

 

Back when Steve Perrin was posting updated versions of his classic VOICE of Doom villains as drawn from his campaign to these forums' date=' he presented an interesting version of "fast healing" SFX as Damage Reduction for Lung Hung. The character had Damage Reduction with a -1/2 Limitation, "Figure Death/Stun First." In other words, the total damage that Lung Hung took after applying PD or ED was used to determine if he was Stunned, Knocked Out, or killed by that attack; then the actual amount of STUN or BODY he lost was reduced as per the DR, reflecting how quickly he "healed" from it.[/quote']

When did he post updates to VOICE of Doom?

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Regeneration as a Defense

 

When did he post updates to VOICE of Doom?

 

'Way back in 2003, under the username "Captain Liberty." Character sheets (for 4E HERO) and background from his campaign in which VOICE originated. You'll find that material on this thread: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/9273-VOICE-List

 

Our forum colleagues Enforcer84 and Kirby also posted their own fine 5E renditions of the classic VOICE villains to this thread: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/27274-VOICE-of-DOOM