Magic pistols

[Martin2]

I have a new player joining and wants to build a character with a sort of magic SFX.

 

He says he has the ability to enchant physical items with magic.

 

His concept is to enchant a pair of pistols with arcane magic to have the effect of firing fire and ice.

 

He thought only to fire bullets that would be ice and fire so a different SFX for each gun.

 

My thoughts were that it is magic so he could have anything related to fire or ice as the guns themselves are just a feature of where the power is.

 

So game mechanic is Multipower with Fire Blast, Fire AoE, Ice armour piercing, Ice auto fire power etc.

 

He thought Focus power so -1 so halving the cost.

 

I though this would limit the character if he came up against anyone who could take his guns of him so suggested as not a focus but a special effect of the power and no limitation but it would mean the guns would be indestructible and would magically appear in his hands when he wanted to even if the guns were removed from his grasp. They are also powered by END and not charges.

 

Obviously my option costs more.

 

What would anyone else do to write this up and give him more points.

 

The SFX being magic hand guns that can fire fire and ice (60 points Champions game).

 

Thanks for any suggestions.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Magic pistols

 

You could split the difference and make them foci of opportunity. The particular guns/wands/whatever that he enchants with his ability to project fire & ice is not important. He just needs to have some gun/wand/whatever available to use. This is done mechanically by using OIF (-1/2) as the limitation. Yes he can temporarily lose the current gun(s) and lose access to the powers. But only until he finds another appropriate gun to "focus" his power through.

[Christopher]

Re: Magic pistols

 

Even if he can just "summon" them to his hands, they might still be harder to wield than blast from his hand. Usually that means Restrainable (-1/2).

 

Generally, I would not allow a Magic Special Effect to produce Fire or Ice Special Effect. His attacks may look like "icebullets", but they are magic (and any enemy would know what special effect they have, see 6E1 125). They neither work against vulnerability (Ice), nor are stopped by special defenses (Only vs Ice) and are also not drained/aided by Adjustment powers with "only against Ice Special Effect".

 

One point to look might be "Variable Special Effects" on 6E1 362. Put it on the Multipower and he could for example have his guns fire any heat/cold special effect) - one type at a time.

[Martin2]

Re: Magic pistols

 

Thanks for the feed back.

 

I have decided to go for restrainable and also have reminded the player about his fire and ice being magical and not fire and ice.

 

I may also give him the option to pick another weapon to use as his "focus" if he loses his two pistols.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Magic pistols

 

Thanks for the feed back.

 

I have decided to go for restrainable and also have reminded the player about his fire and ice being magical and not fire and ice.

 

I may also give him the option to pick another weapon to use as his "focus" if he loses his two pistols.

 

As the GM, its up to you, but if he wants fire and ice and its brought about by magic, then that can be acceptable too. Is there a difference between Mr. Freeze's ice gun and Iceman's mutant ice powers? So why should there be a difference if the character is able to summon ice bullets, unless of course you want there to be one. My two cents would be that there isn't one. (But that's just me).

[Christopher]

Re: Magic pistols

 

As the GM' date=' its up to you, but if he wants fire and ice and its brought about by magic, then that can be acceptable too. Is there a difference between Mr. Freeze's ice gun and Iceman's mutant ice powers? So why should there be a difference if the character is able to summon ice bullets, unless of course you want there to be one. My two cents would be that there isn't one. (But that's just me).[/quote']

There is a difference if he want's his attacks to have fire or ice Special effect, at his choosing.

Every single power in the multipower having either special effect is no problem either.

But anything else should require Variabel Special Effect.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Magic pistols

 

The SFX doesn' have to be magic, but should be fire or magic and ice or magic. If he decides the SFX is ice on his armor piercing bullets they won't trigger a villain who has a weakness to magic despite the explaination that the ice bullets are magical.

[Lucius]

Re: Magic pistols

 

As the GM' date=' its up to you, but if he wants fire and ice and its brought about by magic, then that can be acceptable too. Is there a difference between Mr. Freeze's ice gun and Iceman's mutant ice powers? So why should there be a difference if the character is able to summon ice bullets, unless of course you want there to be one. My two cents would be that there isn't one. (But that's just me).[/quote']

 

Mr. Freeze's ice gun is "cold" special effect. If he hits the Yeti with it, the Yeti's defenses that are "only vs cold" will stop it.

 

IT. IS. ALSO "technology" special effect. If the Gremlin zaps it with "Dispel vs Special Effect: Technology" it can break.

 

Iceman's mutant ice powerset is "cold" special effect. If he hits the Yeti with it, the Yeti's defenses that are "only vs cold" will stop it.

 

IT. IS. ALSO "mutant power" special effect. If Gpreneic Mutant Hunting Robot uses its Anti-Mutant Suppression Field, it will be duly suppressed.

 

I don't know where this notion of "If it's magic, it can't be fire and vice versa" comes from.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary Special Effect

[MisterVimes]

Re: Magic pistols

 

I don't know where this notion of "If it's magic' date=' it can't be fire and vice versa" comes from. [/quote']

 

I'm a little out of the loop on this new fangled 6E (but I'm catching up), so, I'm a little confused by this too.

 

e.g. You have a magic wand of fireballs. You attack Invulnerabilium Man. He has a vulnerability x2 STUN to magic SFX. He takes x2 STUN because it's magic. You turn and attack Icetron the Glaciator. Icetron has a vulnerability x1.5 STUN to fire SFX. He takes 1.5 STUN because it's fire. I see no problem here.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Magic pistols

 

I'm a little out of the loop on this new fangled 6E (but I'm catching up), so, I'm a little confused by this too.

 

e.g. You have a magic wand of fireballs. You attack Invulnerabilium Man. He has a vulnerability x2 STUN to magic SFX. He takes x2 STUN because it's magic. You turn and attack Icetron the Glaciator. Icetron has a vulnerability x1.5 STUN to fire SFX. He takes 1.5 STUN because it's fire. I see no problem here.

 

I believe that The Ultimate Energy Projector (5e) introduced multiple special effect rules that in this particular example would cost a little more (maybe +1/4). I'm not sure if those rules have been re-introduced in 6e.

[Christopher]

Re: Magic pistols

 

Mr. Freeze's ice gun is "cold" special effect. If he hits the Yeti with it, the Yeti's defenses that are "only vs cold" will stop it.

 

IT. IS. ALSO "technology" special effect. If the Gremlin zaps it with "Dispel vs Special Effect: Technology" it can break.

 

Iceman's mutant ice powerset is "cold" special effect. If he hits the Yeti with it, the Yeti's defenses that are "only vs cold" will stop it.

 

IT. IS. ALSO "mutant power" special effect. If Gpreneic Mutant Hunting Robot uses its Anti-Mutant Suppression Field, it will be duly suppressed.

 

I don't know where this notion of "If it's magic, it can't be fire and vice versa" comes from.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary Special Effect

There is a difference between source special effect and result special effect. All that this decides, is how they are affected by Drains or Supresses or Dispel.

Mr. Freezes Icewall is still an Ice/cold effect, not a technological effect.

Icemans Icewall is also still an Ice/cold effect, not a Mutant effect.

On the otehr side, neither might be affected by a "Drain Ice Powers" on theirself/their gear.

 

I believe that The Ultimate Energy Projector (5e) introduced multiple special effect rules that in this particular example would cost a little more (maybe +1/4). I'm not sure if those rules have been re-introduced in 6e.

APG I 138, Additional Special Effects.

This also allows a Fire/Blade attack to go against either PD or ED, wichever is worst for the Target.

[Lucius]

Re: Magic pistols

 

There is a difference between source special effect and result special effect.

 

1st power Source: magic, Result: fire

 

2nd power Source: magic, Result: ice

 

I don't see the issue

 

All that this decides, is how they are affected by Drains or Supresses or Dispel.

[/QUOTe]

 

I have to disagree with this too. Off the top of my head, for example, "Detect MutantPower" and "Detect Technology" come to mind.

 

Lucius Alexan

 

Did the palindromederdary eat part of my signature?

[Christopher]

Re: Magic pistols

 

1st power Source: magic, Result: fire

 

2nd power Source: magic, Result: ice

Then the first power will trigger a Fire Vulnerability, the second an ice Vulnerability and neither a Magic Vulnerability.

[Gary Miles]

Re: Magic pistols

 

Thanks for the feed back.

 

I have decided to go for restrainable and also have reminded the player about his fire and ice being magical and not fire and ice.

I don't know why you would need to. Magical fire is still fire. Magical ice is still ice.

 

I could actually see them affecting Vulnerabilities as their respective elements AND as Magic.

[Gary Miles]

Re: Magic pistols

 

1st power Source: magic, Result: fire

 

2nd power Source: magic, Result: ice

 

I don't see the issue

Neither do I. In fact, if the victim of the attack has both a (for example) 1.5x Vulnerability to Magic AND a 1.5x Vulnerability to Fire (or Ice), then one could even possibly make an argument for the victim taking 3 times the damage.

[Lucius]

Re: Magic pistols

 

Is any of this helping the original poster?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

It's not doing much for the palindromedary

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Magic pistols

 

Well whether he allows multiple SFX or not is up to him but hopefully it clarifies that the SFX of this power doesn't HAVE to be magic which is what someone suggested up thread. I could see allowing it to trigger 2 SFX at once but be subject to drains and detect of both as well.

[Martin2]

Re: Magic pistols

 

Is any of this helping the original poster?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

It's not doing much for the palindromedary

 

Totally confused .

 

So people have different thoughts on this which is sort of confusing me on how to judge it .

 

So the example I am using from above.

 

Magic source with fire effect.

 

Would a villain with vulnerability magic take additional damage?

 

Would a villain with vulnerability fire take additional damage?

 

Would a drain magic effect drain the power?

 

Would a drain fire effect drain the power?

 

I would probably now say both would count. But then some people will not and would have an extra advantage for it so reducing the dice effect.

 

But then if the player picks say electical attack or radiation attack for his next exp spends he is racking up a lot of powers that effect a lot of vulnerabilities.

 

So would most people go with dual drain and vulnerability sources etc or all go for magic or fire for that specific power?

[Christopher]

Re: Magic pistols

 

Magic source with fire effect.

 

Would a villain with vulnerability magic take additional damage?

 

Would a villain with vulnerability fire take additional damage?

 

Would a drain magic effect drain the power?

 

Would a drain fire effect drain the power?

I would say:

No

Yes

Yes, but only on the character

Yes, but only on the power in use (Interference APG I, supression area of effect) Of course thigns would be clear if the power was Constant or Presistent.

[MisterVimes]

Re: Magic pistols

 

Totally confused .

 

So people have different thoughts on this which is sort of confusing me on how to judge it .

 

So the example I am using from above.

 

Magic source with fire effect.

 

Would a villain with vulnerability magic take additional damage?

 

Would a villain with vulnerability fire take additional damage?

 

Would a drain magic effect drain the power?

 

Would a drain fire effect drain the power?

 

I would probably now say both would count. But then some people will not and would have an extra advantage for it so reducing the dice effect.

 

But then if the player picks say electical attack or radiation attack for his next exp spends he is racking up a lot of powers that effect a lot of vulnerabilities.

 

So would most people go with dual drain and vulnerability sources etc or all go for magic or fire for that specific power?

 

I would say yes in all cases

[Martin2]

Re: Magic pistols

 

I would say:

No

Yes

Yes, but only on the character

Yes, but only on the power in use (Interference APG I, supression area of effect) Of course thigns would be clear if the power was Constant or Presistent.

 

What about say a magic villain with 10 ED limitation only versus magic attacks?

 

In your case the fire attack would not trigger extra ED?

 

So looking through Talisman powers shadow bolt, shadow embrace, hellfire, hellfire gate etc all from magic but not in the description.

 

So the ED would not trigger these?

 

But 10 ED limitation only versus shadow powers or 10 ED only versus hellfire would?

[Christopher]

Re: Magic pistols

 

What about say a magic villain with 10 ED limitation only versus magic attacks?

 

In your case the fire attack would not trigger extra ED?

Nope. Not any more than Mutant-Flameguy or a Flamethrower would

 

 

So looking through Talisman powers shadow bolt, shadow embrace, hellfire, hellfire gate etc all from magic but not in the description.

 

So the ED would not trigger these?

 

But 10 ED limitation only versus shadow powers or 10 ED only versus hellfire would?

With the official writeup, it noticed that the almsot never mention Special Effect. For her I woulds jsut guess "Magic" special effect. So she woudl trigger the extra ED.

All those shadow/hellfire things are just nice names. Like I could say "Supersonic, explosion-propelled, shaped Objects of Plumbum"-Attack for "I shoot my gun".

 

I am frankly not certain if my interpretation is rules as written. I mean there are rules to how multiple vulnerabilites (to different Special Effects) interact in 6E1.

 

On the other hand there is this part in Chapiosn 6E about "Power Cosmic" and vulnerabilites, and it says: No matter if it looks like Fire/Ice/Ducks, it's "Power Cosmic" and won't rigger Fire/Ice/Duck vulnerabilties. If he wants to exploit vulnerabilties, he needs Variable Special Effect.

[Ice9]

Re: Magic pistols

 

There's three different takes you can do with the SFX:

 

1) The fire/ice is magically created, but once in flight is not magical. In which case, it would be just fire/ice for damage purposes, and magic for drain purposes (see post #17).

2) The fire/ice is magical in flight as well. In which case it is both fire/ice and magic for all purposes.

3) The fire/ice is actually pure magic energy, it just looks like fire/ice.

 

All of them are valid, and (IMO) none of them would have a cost difference. I've seen the argument about multiple SFX costing more, and it doesn't convince me. SFX are generally neutral - there are as many things that resist/drain that SFX as are vulnerable to it. If a given SFX has much more benefits than downsides, then that SFX should require an advantage, not the fact of having multiple SFX. In the example above, having the shots be magic as well as fire would be advantageous when you face a foe vulnerable to magic, but a disadvantage when someone has an anti-magic field.

 

What's also been mentioned is that if a single attack can switch between multiple effects, it requires the Variable SFX advantage. That's only an issue if you use the same Multipower slot for both the fire and ice blasts, which is doesn't sound like you're doing.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Magic pistols

 

Is any of this helping the original poster?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

It's not doing much for the palindromedary

 

Well apparently I added confusion, which I wasn't going for. (Failed roll) If anything, I just wanted to point out to the OP that he needs to decide upfront how the power works, and what the (if any) minor limitations or advantages might apply before the game runs and there is confusion between player and GM. And the only correct version of magic would be what the GM and player decides.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Magic pistols

 

There is a difference if he want's his attacks to have fire or ice Special effect, at his choosing.

Every single power in the multipower having either special effect is no problem either.

But anything else should require Variabel Special Effect.

 

I agree, but my question Christopher is (and I could very well missed it) is where the OP implied he wanted something that required the variable special effect. He said he wanted the bullets to shoot both fire and ice bullets (with the same mechanical effect then yes of course.) Or do you think that because they are magic ice bullets they require the vsfx?