Clonus Posted March 11, 2012 Report Share Posted March 11, 2012 Re: Ultra-Tech Punishments? And now picture youerself trying to find your way in the life: Friends? Long dead, old or on ice Job persecptive? "What is MS Word?" "You have learned what job?" You can't find a phone booth, because everyone uses mobiel phones. And you propably would be unable to make a simple call with any modern smartphone. I _can't_ make a simple call with any modern smartphone. And I, like a lot of people who get sentenced to long prison terms, am not overburdened with friends in the first place. You can't find a palce, because 95% of all offers are in thsi "Internet". About the "girls dressign like sluts"? Well, you ain't getting one of them, as a felon who can't even use a mobile phone with no job and no palce to life. Sorry Clonus, but if you don't see the difference you have a very limited ability to remember the world as it was and see the differences. Or you never remotely tried to imagine it Oh I can see the differences. I'm just not overly impressed by them. Yes, I recognize that Frosty the Snowman has no legitimate employment prospects. So what else is new? What do you think the employment prospects were for the average person who commits crimes leading to long prison sentences in the first place? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Archer Posted March 11, 2012 Report Share Posted March 11, 2012 Re: Ultra-Tech Punishments? Don't you mean the agony booth? Yeah, it was called the agony booth. Crewmen also carried around "agonizers", which were used to punish them for what looked to be less-serious offenses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Quantum Posted March 11, 2012 Report Share Posted March 11, 2012 Re: Ultra-Tech Punishments? Or in Niven's books executed criminals were parted out to the organ banks' date=' which lead to lowering the bar on capital crimes.[/quote'] Ah, yes. The Long ARM of Gil Hamilton. When they say "Keep off the grass", they really mean it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted March 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2012 Re: Ultra-Tech Punishments? The punishment of cryogenic freezing isn't the freezing - it's the cultural dislocation and shock that comes afterwards. We're seeing it in released felons today - at times greater than five years, they need time and support to reintegrate. Some of that is institutionalization, but another big part is social change. And this is in a situation where, by and large, there is some contact with the outside world. Freezing would eliminate the institutionalization problem, but the culture shock would be fierce. Think about how the world was in 2000 - now imagine being thrown from there to now. Rough, but dealable. Now consider someone from 1970. Now think of someone from 1950. Goodmness help you if you were from pre WWII... You make a very compelling argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted March 12, 2012 Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 Re: Ultra-Tech Punishments? Okaaaay...I'm imagining it...imagining it... Nope. The changes in that time frame are no big deal. I wouldn't be happy to be suddenly dumped into a timeframe of economic depression, but I wasn't happy to be suddenly dumped into a time frame of economic depression the month it happened either. There are no actual cultural changes that I'd notice. OK, I'm imagining...I'm imagining... Hey look at all the groovy phones! Other than that.... The women all dress like sluts! This is awesome! Wow, the food's so cheap and everyone looks so well-fed! This is awesome! Cultural dislocation is a silly punishment even if you are the kind of person who is bothered by being dumped into another culture because all it does is give that culture an under-educated desperately poor burden on their society. People who probably weren't coping all that well with their first society anyway. That isn't punishment, it's procrastination. Of course the intent might not be to punish. If crime is regarded as a disease, then people are frozen until they think they've found a cure just like cancer patients. One thing you are missing. How the heck does 1938 dude ever qualify for a job? He is practically under educated for McDonald's most likely. (My mother was the youngest of 11 kids, her and the next youngest were the only ones who graduated high school) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted March 12, 2012 Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 Re: Ultra-Tech Punishments? Development of the hand held Mobile Phone: 1973 Development of the first PC: 1970 Windows 95: 1995 (had no internet explorer back then) Internet as we knwo it: Not before 1990. And now picture youerself trying to find your way in the life: Friends? Long dead, old or on ice Job persecptive? "What is MS Word?" "You have learned what job?" You can't find a phone booth, because everyone uses mobiel phones. And you propably would be unable to make a simple call with any modern smartphone. You can't find a palce, because 95% of all offers are in thsi "Internet". About the "girls dressign like sluts"? Well, you ain't getting one of them, as a felon who can't even use a mobile phone with no job and no palce to life. Sorry Clonus, but if you don't see the difference you have a very limited ability to remember the world as it was and see the differences. Or you never remotely tried to imagine it. Dude, I cant use a smartphone too well as it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted March 12, 2012 Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 Re: Ultra-Tech Punishments? I _can't_ make a simple call with any modern smartphone. And I, like a lot of people who get sentenced to long prison terms, am not overburdened with friends in the first place. Oh I can see the differences. I'm just not overly impressed by them. Yes, I recognize that Frosty the Snowman has no legitimate employment prospects. So what else is new? What do you think the employment prospects were for the average person who commits crimes leading to long prison sentences in the first place? So, they commit another crime and get frozen again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clonus Posted March 12, 2012 Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 Re: Ultra-Tech Punishments? So' date=' they commit another crime and get frozen again?[/quote'] Most likely. As I said, it's less punishment than procrastination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barwickian Posted March 12, 2012 Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 Re: Ultra-Tech Punishments? Most likely. As I said' date=' it's less punishment than procrastination.[/quote'] I'm totally with Clonus on this one. I can see a use for suspended animation if you're transporting prisoners (they can't escape, may require less space depending on the size of the tech, and require less food, water and air). If you're a society which wants to remove its convicts from circulation and lacks both jail space and the death penalty, then maybe. If you can re-educate convicts through their subconsciousness while they're in some kind of semi-suspension, then OK. But these are considerations other than punishment - and they're the only reasons I can find any validity for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted March 12, 2012 Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 Re: Ultra-Tech Punishments? Oh, going back to Gibson, in Count Zero, Slick suffered from induced Korsakov's--as punishment for a previously committed crime, his neurons were altered so that he could only remember five minutes at a time. IIRC he had to take regular medication in order to have any long term memory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Carman Posted March 12, 2012 Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 Re: Ultra-Tech Punishments? The punishment of cryogenic freezing isn't the freezing - it's the cultural dislocation and shock that comes afterwards. We're seeing it in released felons today - at times greater than five years, they need time and support to reintegrate. Some of that is institutionalization, but another big part is social change. And this is in a situation where, by and large, there is some contact with the outside world. Freezing would eliminate the institutionalization problem, but the culture shock would be fierce. Think about how the world was in 2000 - now imagine being thrown from there to now. Rough, but dealable. Now consider someone from 1970. Now think of someone from 1950. Goodmness help you if you were from pre WWII... You are making the possibly unwarranted assumption that there is any intention of ever waking the felon up again. Think of it as an easier-on-the-conscience alternative to execution. "If some exonerating evidence should turn up later, well, no permanent harm done!" Just wait until the felon would have died of old age anyway, then shut off the support system and/or harvest the body for (still fresh) parts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted March 12, 2012 Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 Re: Ultra-Tech Punishments? If you can re-educate convicts through their subconsciousness while they're ib some kind of semi-suspension, then OK. But these are considerations other than punishment - and they're the only reasons I can find any validity for. I think thwere was such a thing - cryogenic + subconscious teaching of skills - in an action comedy. Wierd utopian world where the police officers didn't know the police code for a Killing. Everyone had localisation/healthmonitor implants (but not really big brother). They prefered some sort of virtual reality/neural linkup over "body fluid exchange". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clonus Posted March 12, 2012 Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 Re: Ultra-Tech Punishments? Demolition Man. One of the few uses of the idea that made some sense, although it was odd that Stallone's character didn't know how his own justice system worked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manic Typist Posted March 12, 2012 Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 Re: Ultra-Tech Punishments? You are making the possibly unwarranted assumption that there is any intention of ever waking the felon up again. Think of it as an easier-on-the-conscience alternative to execution. "If some exonerating evidence should turn up later' date=' well, no permanent harm done!" Just wait until the felon would have died of old age anyway, then shut off the support system and/or harvest the body for (still fresh) parts.[/quote'] That's suitably creepy. Might just steal that idea... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Carman Posted March 12, 2012 Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 Re: Ultra-Tech Punishments? That's suitably creepy. Might just steal that idea... Can't claim it as original: the idea appeared in a Marion Zimmer Bradley Darkover novel, "Two to Conquer". The stasis-in-place-of-execution part, anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmjalund Posted March 12, 2012 Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 Re: Ultra-Tech Punishments? Demolition Man. One of the few uses of the idea that made some sense' date=' although it was odd that Stallone's character didn't know how his own justice system worked.[/quote']I think his mind rejected that information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted March 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 Re: Ultra-Tech Punishments? Geeze: some of these societies sound like sadists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clonus Posted March 12, 2012 Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 Re: Ultra-Tech Punishments? Geeze: some of these societies sound like sadists. Society that forces you to repeatedly relive the crime from the point of the victim. Society that confines you with androids who tempt you to commit crimes of violence. You can only leave if you resist the temptation. Unfortunately if you go insane and conclude that everyone outside the prison is an android who has to be destroyed, even though you'd never dream of hurting a human...like the people you've been confined with...things get odd. Society that confines you in an execution chamber, then tells you, you've been reprieved and electrocutes you when you touch the doorknob. Society that exiles you to a forcefield dome inside of which there are no laws. Society that imprisons reincarnated people at birth so that they can finish off their multiple life terms. Society that uses condemned criminals as interstellar explorers and colonists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted March 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 Re: Ultra-Tech Punishments? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4kqAw_BkZc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted March 13, 2012 Report Share Posted March 13, 2012 Re: Ultra-Tech Punishments? Most likely. As I said' date=' it's less punishment than procrastination.[/quote'] OK, procrastination that makes more sense then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted March 13, 2012 Report Share Posted March 13, 2012 Re: Ultra-Tech Punishments? You are making the possibly unwarranted assumption that there is any intention of ever waking the felon up again. Think of it as an easier-on-the-conscience alternative to execution. "If some exonerating evidence should turn up later' date=' well, no permanent harm done!" Just wait until the felon would have died of old age anyway, then shut off the support system and/or harvest the body for (still fresh) parts.[/quote'] That would be probably culture dependent (which is probably the point of all these exotic futuristic punishments, of course). I could probably see some sci-fi cultures seeing it as a cowardly way of dealing with undesirables. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted March 13, 2012 Report Share Posted March 13, 2012 Re: Ultra-Tech Punishments? I also remember Twilight Zone's The Obsolete Man where you got to choose your method of execution (thanks for nothing). Note: Though, the ending was delightfully ironic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starcloud Posted March 13, 2012 Report Share Posted March 13, 2012 Re: Ultra-Tech Punishments? Genetic engineering might work for the future or for changing things like hormone levels generally. Behavior, however, is learned, not genetic; gene therapies would be useless for anything other than correcting a biological dysfunction. Hotsleep, virtual reality, and 'fast time' where a subjective year passes in the space of an objective month, would be fairly pointless if not coupled with a theraputic/rehabilitative scenario. The *goal* of a prison really should be to correct behavior while limiting and controlling the inmate in the process, so as to reduce or eliminate damage to the community. As punishment, imprisonment doesn't really work in the long run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clonus Posted March 15, 2012 Report Share Posted March 15, 2012 Re: Ultra-Tech Punishments? Genetic engineering might work for the future or for changing things like hormone levels generally. Behavior, however, is learned, not genetic; gene therapies would be useless for anything other than correcting a biological dysfunction. Hotsleep, virtual reality, and 'fast time' where a subjective year passes in the space of an objective month, would be fairly pointless if not coupled with a theraputic/rehabilitative scenario. The *goal* of a prison really should be to correct behavior while limiting and controlling the inmate in the process, so as to reduce or eliminate damage to the community. As punishment, imprisonment doesn't really work in the long run. Lengthy prison terms serve three functions. They let the perpetrator age enough that he'll be less frisky when he comes out, they are unpleasant enough that people fear them, and they convince friends and family of the victims that some punishment has occurred. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnaskar Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 Re: Ultra-Tech Punishments? Lengthy prison terms serve three functions. They let the perpetrator age enough that he'll be less frisky when he comes out' date=' they are unpleasant enough that people fear them, and they convince friends and family of the victims that some punishment has occurred.[/quote'] For most Norwegians the only real point of a long sentence is keeping the perpetrator out of society for as long as they are still a danger to it. In most cases, the guilt and social stigma that comes with being convicted is enough punishment in itself, and is enough to make people think twice about committing a crime. And with our oil funded health care, aging the perpertrators would only have an effect in the most extreme of circumstances (the maximum sentence time for anything that is not high treason is 18 years). This system/culture works well most of the time, but recently a weakness has been exposed. With an estimated 1 in 10 rape cases actually ending in an arrest, and most of those the ones where the victim knew his/her attacker, there just isn't enough of a disincentive to stop everyone. A small group of people (estimated to be around five people, last I checked) around the country have been going berserk with around a rape per week for the last couple of months. The police response is a request for more funding for this class of crime, and more weekend patrols. And more surveillance of everybody, which is a whole other issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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