Making a Invisible Power more Invisble.

[BhelliomRahl]

Good day.

 

I currently running a cyberpunk game and one of my players wants to make his encrypted communication with his drone harder to detect. Currently we are using Mind Link to represent the encrypted communication.

Mental Awareness is used to detect these signals and Telepathy to intercept them.

Mind Link is already an invisible power but my player wants to use the Invisible Power Effect advantage: +1/2 - Effects of Power are Invisible to other characters but not target.

The point is to render his communication invisble to Mental Awareness.

 

Am unsure if: 1) This will work and 2) If I should allow it.

What are peoples thoughs on this or a better method for doing it.

 

The fact is that you cannot make a signal invisible but possible disguise it as something else. I suggested using cryptography to encode and disguise his communications. Says he will also do this in addition plans to by a VPP for languages and to change languages during communication for additional communication.

 

This brings me to another point. This same player has been making liberal use of VPP and am getting a little unsure. Generally he is buying VPP with a big enough Pool to have all the powers in it active at onces but only activates them when needed.

He says he does this so that when he activates a power does not need to spend time allocating points. I made the point that technically he is allocating points from the pool to a power.

Has used VPP for senses, movement, invisibilty and enviromental movement. To be honest I think he is breaking the system and using the VPP to get all the powers cheaper than they should be.

i.e. Enhanced Perception is a Special power and should not be put in a VPP but the rules allow exception for a gadget of common usage with GM permission.

This player does have a habit of finding loop holes and methods to fully exploit and break system rules.

 

Do people have any advise on how to handle him?

[Lucius]

Re: Making a Invisible Power more Invisble.

 

You can start saying "no." As in, "No, you don't get a Variable Language Pool."

 

Rather than Invisibility, you can let him use the Concealment Adder from Enhanced Senses.

 

Realistically, is his link already basically invisible, and he's just being paranoid? Or is he hypersensitive to security because you've been bringing in opposition that has a way around everything he's done to secure that link to the drone? Sounds like he's in an "arms race" - I'm wondering if that's an arms race with you, with another player or just with his own imagination.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Variable Palindromedary Pool

[Laundry Knight]

Re: Making a Invisible Power more Invisble.

 

For the invisible invisibility, I think you are right unless he is thinking of porting his communications through an extra-dimension (which seems inappropriate for most cyber-punk settings), but then, those that can detect disruptions in the time-space continuum would be able to detect the rupture and could possibly create a space-time receiver, and of course, there can no way of knowing what kind of beings exist in the continuity the signal is being transmitted through.

 

As far as breaking the system, what matters is, does his actions disrupt the balance of your individual game? Which is what matters most. If so, as GM you can disallow it by executive fiat. If not, then roll with it, but in my opinion, I would not allow his VPP and communication powers in a cyberpunk game. Maybe, in supers or science fantasy, but not in cyberpunk.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Making a Invisible Power more Invisble.

 

Am unsure if: 1) This will work and 2) If I should allow it.

What are peoples thoughs on this or a better method for doing it.

 

Yes, that will work.

 

I personally see no reason not to allow it; it would essentially just mean that this signal isn't picked up by things that usually scan for signals of that type. It wouldn't stop a more specific Detect from finding it, for example.

 

I don't think there is or needs to be a better method; sounds like that's the perfect method.

 

I suggested using cryptography to encode and disguise his communications. Says he will also do this in addition plans to by a VPP for languages and to change languages during communication for additional communication.

 

I see no reason to allow a Language VPP for this. If he wants it to change languages as part of the encryption/decryption process, that can just be the Special Effect rationale for improving the Cryptography roll. If he wants the character to actually be able to speak and understand the different Languages, I think he should buy them normally. Why would it need to be a VPP?

 

This brings me to another point. This same player has been making liberal use of VPP and am getting a little unsure. Generally he is buying VPP with a big enough Pool to have all the powers in it active at onces but only activates them when needed.

He says he does this so that when he activates a power does not need to spend time allocating points. I made the point that technically he is allocating points from the pool to a power.

Has used VPP for senses, movement, invisibilty and enviromental movement. To be honest I think he is breaking the system and using the VPP to get all the powers cheaper than they should be.

 

Something doesn't add up, here. If his Pool is large enough for him to run all his Powers simultaneously (i.e., he really can keep points "allocated" to every Power, even if they're not all on at once), then his rules interpretation is correct; it takes no time if he's not re-allocating points. However, if the Pool is really that large, it's not cheaper either. That would be impossible. Are you sure you guys are using VPP correctly?

 

i.e. Enhanced Perception is a Special power and should not be put in a VPP but the rules allow exception for a gadget of common usage with GM permission.

This player does have a habit of finding loop holes and methods to fully exploit and break system rules.

 

Do people have any advise on how to handle him?

 

If I were his GM, the more wormy he got in his usage of the VPP, the stingier I would get about granting GM permission. Allowing things like Special Powers in Power Frameworks is a privilege given to players I trust to use it for the betterment of the game.

[Lucius]

Re: Making a Invisible Power more Invisble.

 

Something doesn't add up' date=' here. If his Pool is large enough for him to run all his Powers simultaneously (i.e., he really can keep points "allocated" to every Power, even if they're not all on at once), then his rules interpretation is correct; it takes no time if he's not re-allocating points. However, if the Pool is really that large, it's not cheaper either. That would be impossible. Are you sure you guys are using VPP correctly?[/quote']

 

I haven't been using Variable Power Pools that much in the New Regime, but that struck me as odd too. Sounds like he's paying more, not less, for the Powers he uses.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Variable Power Palindromedary

[Christopher]

Re: Making a Invisible Power more Invisble.

 

I haven't been using Variable Power Pools that much in the New Regime' date=' but that struck me as odd too. Sounds like he's paying more, not less, for the Powers he uses.[/quote']

Exactly.

 

The one thing limiting the VPP is the Pool wich you buy at a 1:1 point ratio - no Limitations Apply to that cost part. The total sum of the Real Costs of all the powers you have "sloted" (avalible without need to make the roll/take the time) at once must fit into your pool, or you have to drop slots until you have enough points*. Limitations apply to the real Cost of the powers so you can put more into that. But of course the nature of a VPP makes a lot of limtiations rather worthless/unlimiting.

The only thing limitations apply to is the controll cost. With the most severe things being those that affect how you can change your powers.

 

*To get them abck, you have to change the selection of your VPP again. Including dropping slots and taking the time/skill nessesary.

 

Example:

Let's asume a pool with 60 Control Cost and 100 Pool.

It can take any amount of powers with up to 60 AP each, wich in total can not cost more real points than 100.

When you have a 60 AP/60 Real Cost attack and a 40 AP/40 Real Cost defense Power, you can use both at the same time. Just as if you have written them on your sheet normally (not inside a VPP).

But in addition you also pay 30 Character Points (the Controll Cost/2) to change those powers outside of combat.

If you invest in a Skill to change (30 + 3 for a Power Skill), you can change them as a full phase in combat - asuming you make the skill roll with the Full active point penalty.

 

The absolute freedom is would be "0-phase to change" and "no skill roll required" (+1 each for a +2), wich you apply to the controll cost only.

that would ocst 190 Character Points (30*3 + 100), but you could totally change the selection of powers once per phase as a 0-phase action.

[BhelliomRahl]

Re: Making a Invisible Power more Invisble.

 

Thanks for the input.

 

I really need to just say no seems like some of the best advise. I will take that to heart.

 

My player is a little paranoid, he is technically a convict serving the corporation instead of imprisonment. Although his quality of life is much higher and has very little restrictions except that his boss (another player) is Dr Frankenstein crossed with Dr Moreau.

Cyber Hacking is a problem (Not as serious as some people fear) but he already has advanced protection.

---------------------------

 

I don't understand what he has done with the VPP, I have checked his math and it works out more expensive. Although he still insists on the VPP, he says its so he does not have to have them active all at the same time but can turn them on as a Zero Phase action with out a power skill roll.

Can I confirm this? As the pool points are not allocated does it take time allocate them to a power and does it require a roll? (I will put the question to Steve)

 

Thank you.

[Christopher]

Re: Making a Invisible Power more Invisble.

 

Regarding the VPP:

A VPP is all about being able to Create Slots on the Fly. With a Multipower you have only the slots you bought, with VPP's you can make slots with every power and every advantage in the book.

Anohter difference is that the number of powers you have avilbe at once is not limited by the Activee Points (as for Multipower), but by the real Points.

 

I could give you a more precise example, if you could give me:

The Control Cost, Pool size and Limitations/advantages of the VPP. As well as the total cost

The Active and Real Costs of some of the powers he builds inside the VPP.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Making a Invisible Power more Invisble.

 

Regarding the VPP:

A VPP is all about being able to Create Slots on the Fly. With a Multipower you have only the slots you bought, with VPP's you can make slots with every power and every advantage in the book.

 

Actually, I see a lot of VPP's which are never used or intended to create slots on the fly, but simply to be a more cost-effective Multipower with a host of slots, and no restriction on adding new slots. Note that the default rule is that you cannot change slots on the fly, but that they are changed during down time. You can choose to purchase a skill which facilitates changing slots in the field, or an advantage that makes it even more easy.

 

Actually, why keep the "change your points with a skill roll" option at all? That could be simulated without this mechanic. Make "Change as a Full Phase" a +1 advantage on the control cost, with "Change as a Half Phase" and "Change as a Zero Phase" remaining as an extra +1/2 and +1, respectively. If you want the change to Require a Roll, you Limit these advantages.

 

A Pool large enough to hold every power you want in it makes no sense. You could just buy all of those powers for the same real point cost as the pool, and eliminate the control cost. As to whether it costs time to reallocate those points, I think that's a red herring. If he has enough real points in his VPP to have every slot up at once, why should he ever allocate points away from those powers? Since the points are allocated to those slots from the outset, he never needs to reallocate them, so no time is spent in such reallocation.

[Christopher]

Re: Making a Invisible Power more Invisble.

 

Actually' date=' why keep the "change your points with a skill roll" option at all?[/quote']

Because the Active Point Penalty balances it. Make one 60 AP power: -6 on the Roll. Make two 60 AP, 30 RC cost powers in one phase: -12. The controll cost is already an extra expense, no need to make it more difficulty to build a standart "Supermage" from the comics.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Making a Invisible Power more Invisble.

 

Because the Active Point Penalty balances it. Make one 60 AP power: -6 on the Roll. Make two 60 AP' date=' 30 RC cost powers in one phase: -12. The controll cost is already an extra expense, no need to make it more difficulty to build a standart "Supermage" from the comics.[/quote']

 

I've never seen a standard Supermage from the comics fail to cast the spell he was looking for, actually. Now, the most recent Dr. Fate, sure - but he's not "standard" in that he really doesn't have all that much mystical knowledge at present.

 

The same penalty, where desired, can be placed on the advantage allowing you to change your powers in a full, half or zero phase action. In fact, I ran a character with a magical VPP who had "Change without Skill Roll" on a 14-, "Change in half phase" on an 11- and "Change as a zero phase" on 8-. If he wanted to figure out how to do something new, he announced that at the start of his phase, and rolled. On a 3 - 8, he came up with the new ability immediately and still had a full phase left. On 9 - 11, he took a bit longer to figure it out, but still had a half phase. On a 12 - 14, he figured it out, but the time spent pondering cost him his phase. On a 15 - 18, he's still thinking and can roll again next phase (or give up and do something else).

 

The AP of the power was not relevant, in his case. But one could easily make it relevant.

 

Odd, though, that Dr. Strange can more easily remember how to cast Bolts of Bedevilment reduced to half strength to avoid seriously injuring his opponent, than remember how to cast the standard full strength version he doesn't have to customize on the fly. He should just add "Stun Only" - apparently it's a cakewalk to modifiy killing spells into stunning spells.

[Christopher]

Re: Making a Invisible Power more Invisble.

 

I have the perfect idea:

You go on and make 6E Hugh Neilson version.

 

I stay here helping people with 6E Steve long version.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Making a Invisible Power more Invisble.

 

The 6e Steve Long version provides for changing the VPP out of combat/between in game events. It also allows you to use a skill to change it in a shorter time frame. It does not REQUIRE this, it ALLOWS it. You can choose to have a VPP and take no related skill, in which case it does not change until you have taken the time to change it. That time is somewhere between "in combat" and " only changes back at the lab".

 

Your assumption that all VPP's are used to change powers on the fly is also flawed. They CAN be used for that purpose. Often, however, they are not. Instead, they are used to provide access to a wide array of different powers. In fact, some GM's will restrict a VPP to pre-approved slots, and not allow additions on the fly.

 

On a current Champions thread, Hyper Man provides an excellent example of a VPP used to simulate the abilities Reed Richards uses his Stretching for. Lots of slots pre-written up for that one too. And it's built with no skill roll or time to play - basically, it's a huge, flexible multipower. And that, too, is a legitimate use of a VPP. Nice way to write up a SuperMage who KNOWS his spells, too.

[Christopher]

Re: Making a Invisible Power more Invisble.

 

And what has that, or you ideas how VPP should be handeled in 7E/your games, to do with the problem of the op?

 

Or is this just a try to hijack the thread with something totally unreleated?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Making a Invisible Power more Invisble.

 

And what has that, or you ideas how VPP should be handeled in 7E/your games, to do with the problem of the op?

 

Or is this just a try to hijack the thread with something totally unreleated?

 

My deepest apologies for discussing VPP's on a thread discussing VPP's where the OP asks two questions, one on the use of VPP's. Skimming the thread, I don't believe I am any more off topic than you moved the thread in your detailed discussion of the difference between VPP's and Multipowers. My discussion is aimed at correcting the possible misconception that the way you use VPP's is the One True Way, rather than one possible use of the tool from the toolbox.

 

That said, I'd have to agree that "what VPP is used for and how it's used" isn't remotely central to the original topic. The actual question wasn't really centered around the fact that a VPP with a pool big enough to have all its possible slots active at the same time was counterproductive (and seems to indicate the player is not being a very effective munchkin, if being a munchkin is his objective). Drift happens

 

Regardless, it seems the OP has his answers, so absent some indication he wants any further advice, I think it safe to bid this thread adieu.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Making a Invisible Power more Invisble.

 

And what has that, or you ideas how VPP should be handeled in 7E/your games, to do with the problem of the op?

 

Or is this just a try to hijack the thread with something totally unreleated?

The "hijack" started because he was responding to your false statement:

 

Regarding the VPP:

A VPP is all about being able to Create Slots on the Fly. With a Multipower you have only the slots you bought, with VPP's you can make slots with every power and every advantage in the book.

 

That is not what a VPP "is all about". It is one possible use.