Only up to PRE+EGO AP useable

[Christopher]

I am working on a sort of green lantern pastiche. And I thought one way to simulate the depedence on will power (or any other emotion) is to Limit the Active Points useable to whatever the characters Sum of PREsence and EGO is.

 

I choose both as none of them alone is sufficient to measure Resolve and having to bump one up to 50 or 60 is a little bit unpractical. Both together should not be that difficulty.

 

I am just not certain about the value. I figure a -1/4 at tops (it has similarities to unified and linked), but am not certain.

 

Target Campaign:

6E Standart Superheroic (400 points)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Only up to PRE+EGO AP useable

 

Sounds similar to Unified Power to PRE and EGO, as you note - drain either of the two, and your willpower based powers fall with it. I doubt the rings will be handed out, or used by a 13 PRE, 8 EGO character, so it's really the impact on your character which should matter.

 

At -1/4, it should be a problem on occasion, but not often, so expect to see the occasional character who can negatively impact your PRE and/or EGO, but not every other game.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Only up to PRE+EGO AP useable

 

From the Power Ring I recently linked to on the Calling all Green Lanterns thread:

 

Oan Green Energy Variable Power Pool

300 Variable Power Pool (Cosmic), 150 base + 150 control cost, Cosmic (+2) (375 Active Points); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Day (Recovers Under Limited Circumstances; Can only be recharged with Oan Power Battery (Lantern); -1/4); all slots Limited Power Affected by Adjustment powers as an EC (-1/4)

Notes: Ring's Computer can only use 50 active points in any single power via programs.

 

8 Bestow use of Oan Green Energy to wearer of ring: Usable By Other (12 Active Points); Conditional Power A single power's maximum Active Points = 5x EGO of Wearer. Usable Real Point total still = Base [150] (Use is Subject to Programing* set by Oans. ; -1/4), Visible (All use of powers by the ring wearer have a Green Glow sfx.; -1/4)

[Mister E]

Re: Only up to PRE+EGO AP useable

 

Mental (&/or Social) combat can contain a lot of EGO (&/or PRE) draining to soften the targets up for finishing moves.

[Christopher]

Re: Only up to PRE+EGO AP useable

 

From the Power Ring I recently linked to on the Calling all Green Lanterns thread:

It's an alternative to add a doubling in. It would compensate for the unidirectionality by letting his powers suffer twice the drain.

 

Mental (&/or Social) combat can contain a lot of EGO (&/or PRE) draining to soften the targets up for finishing moves.

This could actually be an advantage. After all "break his will, break his power" - AFAIH they even used such a trick in Justice League Doom.

Without the danger of PRE/EGO Drains it would not be a limitation.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Only up to PRE+EGO AP useable

 

This could actually be an advantage. After all "break his will, break his power" - AFAIH they even used such a trick in Justice League Doom.

Without the danger of PRE/EGO Drains it would not be a limitation.

 

I aggree it might not be much of a Limitation in many campaigns, but how do you get that it would be an Advantage? I mean, even in the example you give it is clearly a negative for GL...

[Christopher]

Re: Only up to PRE+EGO AP useable

 

I aggree it might not be much of a Limitation in many campaigns' date=' but how do you get that it would be an Advantage? I mean, even in the example you give it is clearly a negative for GL...[/quote']

I wasn't talking about a Hero System Advantage. I meant it isn't a probelm, but actually means it works more as expected.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Only up to PRE+EGO AP useable

 

So it's like any other power...still not sure what the "advantage" is...

[Christopher]

Re: Only up to PRE+EGO AP useable

 

So it's like any other power...still not sure what the "advantage" is...

Then forget it, I can't explain it.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Only up to PRE+EGO AP useable

 

It's an alternative to add a doubling in. It would compensate for the unidirectionality by letting his powers suffer twice the drain.

 

The version I quoted from is a 5e build that already has an equivalent to the Unified Limitation. The EGO to Active Point ratio (similar to your EGO/PRE idea) is similar but still distinct from Unified.

[Christopher]

Re: Only up to PRE+EGO AP useable

 

The version I quoted from is a 5e build that already has an equivalent to the Unified Limitation. The EGO to Active Point ratio (similar to your EGO/PRE idea) is similar but still distinct from Unified.

My goal is more a one way Unified. Drain of one power/Characteristic affect one power, but not the otehr way around.

 

When you really combined unified and that other limitation here, I think there might be backfire:

When you have 30 EGO you can use the full potential.

 

Now if your EGO is drained for 20 Points, the following happens:

You allowed AP Drop to 50 and each of the powers will Suffer a Drain for 20 Points. So your effective power AP drops to around 30.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Only up to PRE+EGO AP useable

 

My goal is more a one way Unified. Drain of one power/Characteristic affect one power' date=' but not the otehr way around.[/quote']

 

I agre that using Unified Power here doesn't follow the RAW, but I think you've found a corner case where having it work one way actually makes sense.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Only up to PRE+EGO AP useable

 

My goal is more a one way Unified. Drain of one power/Characteristic affect one power, but not the otehr way around.

 

When you really combined unified and that other limitation here, I think there might be backfire:

When you have 30 EGO you can use the full potential.

 

Now if your EGO is drained for 20 Points, the following happens:

You allowed AP Drop to 50 and each of the powers will Suffer a Drain for 20 Points. So your effective power AP drops to around 30.

 

If you are referring to my example, a drain of Hal's Ego would drop the active points of any power in the VPP but nothing else. His EGO was not purchased with any form of "Unified". It's not a direct drain of the green energy, rather it's a drain of his ability to concentrate said energy via his 'willpower'. A Drain used directly vs. a green energy ability would not affect his EGO at all.

[Christopher]

Re: Only up to PRE+EGO AP useable

 

If you are referring to my example' date=' a drain of Hal's Ego would drop the active points of any power in the VPP but nothing else. His EGO was not purchased with any form of "Unified". It's not a direct drain of the green energy, rather it's a drain of his ability to concentrate said energy via his 'willpower'. A Drain used directly vs. a green energy ability would not affect his EGO at all.[/quote']

Okay. I had understood that his powers and his Ego where Unified, but that wasn't the case.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Only up to PRE+EGO AP useable

 

Okay. I had understood that his powers and his Ego where Unified' date=' but that wasn't the case.[/quote']

 

Well, in a more general sense the Green Lantern Rings are described as being driven by 'Willpower'. The stronger the 'Willpower' of the wearer, the more powerfull the effects they can generate. So my version(s) of the Ring were built with this in mind. The Rings themselves are identical. Hal could swap rings with any other GL with no change in ability (as long as both rings have a charge). How good they are at actually using the Rings is determined by their 'Willpower' (HERO Ego) and skill. My 6e version goes one step further and assumes that GL's need 'basic ring training' by the GL Corps to offset the inherrent 'Requires an EGO roll to use' Limitation on the VPP. Completion of the basic training is reflected in the 75 point naked buyoff of that limitation.

[Christopher]

Re: Only up to PRE+EGO AP useable

 

Overall the idea to built the rings as computer seems like a awfull lot of work and pretty hard on the balance (thanks to the computer cost break).

If I wanted a Ring (wich I don't for this) if would just go with "Green Lanter Ring of Opportunity" for them normal OIF Limitation. Sure he can get another, but Green lantern rigns arren't exactly "abundant" like Guns so it changes little for the cost.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Only up to PRE+EGO AP useable

 

I agre that using Unified Power here doesn't follow the RAW' date=' but I think you've found a corner case where having it work one way actually makes sense.[/quote']

 

I think Unified Power should simply have been a -1/4 limitation to each power drained. If you wanted to Unify all your powers to Ego (ie ego goes down, so do all those powers, but separate drains to those powers have no impact on EGO) you would put the limitation on each power, but not on EGO.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Only up to PRE+EGO AP useable

 

Overall the idea to built the rings as computer seems like a awfull lot of work and pretty hard on the balance (thanks to the computer cost break).

If I wanted a Ring (wich I don't for this) if would just go with "Green Lanter Ring of Opportunity" for them normal OIF Limitation. Sure he can get another, but Green lantern rigns arren't exactly "abundant" like Guns so it changes little for the cost.

 

That was just the simpliest way to have them be universal foci that aren't universaly effective for every wearer. But any characteristic multiple -> active point limit should be defined separately from the unified limitation.

 

If I didn't use the computer/follower construct there would be no way to separate the character's ability from the ring's maximum potential. If no focus is being used this becomes a non-concern.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Only up to PRE+EGO AP useable

 

Overall the idea to built the rings as computer seems like a awfull lot of work and pretty hard on the balance (thanks to the computer cost break).

...

 

I never posted it to my JLA thread but I am pretty sure I saved an alternate 'standard focus' 1 character sheet build of GL just to compare costs basing the ring on a 90 active point VPP (in 5er rules at least) and it came very close to the same final costs as the computer/follower construct. Yes, it's a lot simpiler method but it means anyone with a higher EGO than Hal gets no benefit. A more powerful GL would actually have to spend more points on his RING which just seems wrong conceptually.

[Christopher]

Re: Only up to PRE+EGO AP useable

 

I never posted it to my JLA thread but I am pretty sure I saved an alternate 'standard focus' 1 character sheet build of GL just to compare costs basing the ring on a 90 active point VPP (in 5er rules at least) and it came very close to the same final costs as the computer/follower construct. Yes' date=' it's a lot simpiler method but it means anyone with a higher EGO than Hal gets no benefit. A more powerful GL would actually have to spend more points on his RING which just seems wrong conceptually.[/quote']

I would say he pays for his (increased) ability to Use his Ring.

All that needs to be done is to untie the AP of his Powers and Defenses/Body of the Ring.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Only up to PRE+EGO AP useable

 

I would say he pays for his (increased) ability to Use his Ring.

...

 

But a consequence of such a method means that if 2 different GL's of different experience levels (say Hal Jordan & Gnorf) were to trade rings Hal would technically be limited by the lower amount of points spent by Gnorf on his ring. A non-sensical result that could easily be handwaved but also a big reason why I chose the method that i did.

[Christopher]

Re: Only up to PRE+EGO AP useable

 

But a consequence of such a method means that if 2 different GL's of different experience levels (say Hal Jordan & Gnorf) were to trade rings Hal would technically be limited by the lower amount of points spent by Gnorf on his ring. A non-sensical result that could easily be handwaved but also a big reason why I chose the method that i did.

That's why I said "Green Lantern Ring of Oppotunity".

It's the same concept as Throwing Master from HSMA - the specifc objects does not mater*, the users skill (for wich he paid) does. You can increase your Throwign Master ability and still use the same objects.

 

 

*Literally: playing cards do the same damage and have the same range as flask of beer.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Only up to PRE+EGO AP useable

 

That's why I said "Green Lantern Ring of Oppotunity".

It's the same concept as Throwing Master from HSMA - the specifc objects does not mater*, the users skill (for wich he paid) does. You can increase your Throwign Master ability and still use the same objects.

 

 

*Literally: playing cards do the same damage and have the same range as flask of beer.

 

I don't think you've thought this all the way through yet. What defines the maximum potential of a Ring Welder? And even more importantly, what defines the maximum power usage of a non-GL who obtains a charged ring? What govern's the maximum if a High EGO NPC (higher than even Hal) obtains an experienced Hal's ring vs. Gnort's ring? The NPC has zero points invested but whose ring he gets initially sets a limit on what he can do with it. You'd have to build a framework as big as the maximum potential of the ring and then 'tune it down' via the Ego/Pre limitation for each character. To me, that gets more complicated and harder to interpret than just making a separate sheet for the ring the way I did.

[Christopher]

Re: Only up to PRE+EGO AP useable

 

I don't think you've thought this all the way through yet. What defines the maximum potential of a Ring Welder? And even more importantly' date=' what defines the maximum power usage of a non-GL who obtains a charged ring? What govern's the maximum if a High EGO NPC (higher than even Hal) obtains an experienced Hal's ring vs. Gnort's ring? The NPC has zero points invested but whose ring he gets initially sets a limit on what he can do with it. You'd have to build a framework as big as the maximum potential of the ring and then 'tune it down' via the Ego/Pre limitation for each character. To me, that gets more complicated and harder to interpret than just making a separate sheet for the ring the way I did.[/quote']

You seem to be on the total wrong track.

 

Let's take three different green Lanterns by three different players:

GL 1 (the expert) the folowing written on his sheet:

34 60 Reserve Multipower, all Slot OIF (Green lantern Ring of Opportinity; -1/2), does not works agaisnt color yellow (-1/4)

3f 12d6 Blast, Common Limitations (-3/4)

3f 40 STR Telekinesis, Common Limitations (-3/4), Phys. Manifestation (-1/4)

2f 40 AP barrier, Common Limitations (-3/4)

42 Total

 

GL 2 (the rokie) has the following:

17 30 Reserve Multipower, all slots OIF (Green lanter Ring of Opportunity; -1/2), does not works agaisnt color yellow (-1/4)

2f 6d6 Blast, Common Limitations (-3/4)

1f 20 STR Telekinesis, Common Lim.(-3/4), Phys. Manifestation (-1/4)

2f 30 AP barrier, Common Limitations (-3/4)

22 Total

 

GL 3 (the special). The player doesn't wants the weakness vs. Yellow and also doesn't wants to loos his ring as often as the others, so he wites down:

48 Reserve multipower, All slots OIF (Green Lantern Ring of Opportunity; rarely lost; -1/4)

5f12d6 Blast, Com. Lim (-1/4)

4f 40 STR TK, Com. Lim (-1/4), Phys. Manifestation (-1/4)

3f 40 AP Barrier, Com. Lim (-1/4)

60 Total

 

What changes if they swap rings:

Nothing

 

What is the upper limit for theri rings power:

What they paid for.

Wich perfectly matches how the ring is depicted - between almighty and unreliable/useless, depeding on the wielder and his experience at wieldign it.

 

What happens if the character dies:

He is dead and what his ring does no is not a mater of the game anymore.

 

What if somebody else picks up the ring:

As written, nothing. He paid for nothing. Maybe the GM established a sort of "minimum effect" that ever being can access. This can range from "be carefull not to break your bones" to "batman is anwsome with a powering", dependign on the GM (comicbook interpretation). Propably it has been handeled out in advance what exaclty happens and the just uses a different sheet for that session.

Otherwise the character is not inclined to give away his ring under less than a threat to his life.

 

Notes: Interstingly most Human Lanterns even added a OIAD limitation to their ring power. This allowed them (on the same points) to have more power or additional skills.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Only up to PRE+EGO AP useable

 

.....

 

What if somebody else picks up the ring:

As written, nothing. He paid for nothing.

 

GL rings are universal foci in many ways. What if the PC is captured and a villain takes his charged ring? This is way too common of a situation in the source material to leave it up to GM handwavium when the situation arises.